So how much (or how little) mods would be considered a pro touring set up? Would a stock suspension with poly bushings, some headers, aftermarket brakes and exhaust and a few other minor engine bolt-on be considered pro touring or just a resto mod? Opinions?

In my opinion that is resto mod. For pro-touring you should do something to correct the deficiencies of the stock suspension and steering. Guldstrand mod, tall ball joints, better yet ATS spindles. Improved steering box from ATS or Lee. Lower it with lowering springs front and rear. Good shocks such as Bilstein. Improve the front end alignment. Lots of guys do the Hotchkis TVS but it is lacking in that it does nothing to improve the steering geometry. After that improve the brakes. More horsepower as the budget allows.

This is purely my opinion, I'm sure you will get others.

By the way, delrin bushings are superior to poly bushings. Poly bushings bind and are not generally recommended by the pro-touring suspension gurus.

Don

Anything suspension and engine wise that will make it have the drivability of a late model good handleing car.Check out DSE website and go into projects it is a great website to visit.
http://www.detroitspeed.com/projectpages/project_page.htm

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Please no hate mail, I am kidding after all.

You can call it anything you want, it's your car. Just because you're not installing a bunch of parts with three letter acronyms doesn't mean that it's not pro-touring.

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

LOL! I am thinking of making that the "Official" definition!

Hutton nailed it though. It does not have to be the trickest thing ever, but there does need to be significant efforts to improve all the weak areas of the car.

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Darn, I guess I only qualify for a resto-mod ;)

But you forgot the part about the all billet parts and the radio system with 2-3 sub-woofers in the trunk :p

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Now that is some funny stuff. I missed on all accounts and will never get to SEMA. Over on that unnamed website they coined the term Joe Touring for the average guy doing what he can within the limitations of his budget and talent. Some were offended but I think it describes my efforts to a tee.

Don

LOL...This is good stuff and this is from a guy with a few "Name"d cars.

Now that is some funny stuff. I missed on all accounts and will never get to SEMA. Over on that unnamed website they coined the term Joe Touring for the average guy doing what he can within the limitations of his budget and talent. Some were offended but I think it describes my efforts to a tee.

Don

LOL...This is good stuff and this is from a guy with a few "Name"d cars.

"Joe Touring,,, hahaha I love it. Gonna need to pop over there and read the "definition." I think mine fits somewhere between restomod and joetouring, hahahaha.

Mostly I don't like labels.
I don't like rules.
I don't like definitions.

I do like guys with a sense of humor.

For what it's worth, the pro street gang just has zero sense of humor today.
They take themselves pretty darned seriously too.

Happy New Year all!!

LOL...This is good stuff and this is from a guy with a few "Name"d cars.

The named "Red" car.....the Red witch is what pro-Touring is all about. Just a flat out awsome car. At a first glimps at it you would think it's just a little warmed over here and there, then you start looking and it's the definition of Pro-Touring....and it get driven also!!

Mostly I don't like labels.
I don't like rules.
I don't like definitions.



The labels are a little hokey but I must say it does make it much easier to reference "The Mule" or "Project Prodigy" then it is to reference that siver 69 twin turbo car that Charlie owns or that balck and red convertible that Michael from Prodigy Customs built. So I think the names have a purpose.


Rules, I hate rules to. That is what bored me to death with restorations (and yeah I accepted a restoration last week). No rules in Pro Touring, use whatever you want. Paint it whatever shade of black you want, paint it purple if you want to!

And the definition has caused a stir over at the other site everytime it is brought up because it really is undefinable. But I do believe it is simply...............

Significant efforts to improve all the weak areas of the car.

Which BTW you did Jim! Your car is easily Pro Touring.

Now come on, I know you got some little pet name for ole Gurtrude, Betsy, Bitch or Honey (depending on how things are going, LOL), she or her.

No rules but would you say standards as far as suspension and engine.I think the engine should be a late model fuel injected I dont think it would be a motor that you should have to warm up for 15 minutes like mine....

I have names for my cars...but this is a family site....

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

That is hilarious and true!!!! 4 out of 5 aint bad huh.:D

Thanks for the input guys.

Some of you are a riot, I love the humor here! l:) :beers:

A Muscle Car, preferably a Camaro, with 3.08 Gears and a trailer hitch pulling a Vintage Boler Trailer ;-)

A true pro touring car must have a front suspension that is not factory, it must be altered for cornering deep and hard turns and must have big brakes on the front to handle this, the tires and rims will also be wider to handle the g's...the rear suspension will also be altered with big brakes and wider tires and rims and will have a set up like dse's quadra link for its cornering abilities...also the pro touring car will be lowered down 2 the ground as it needs to hug the road to grab the next corner...(motor options dont make a pt car, paint jobs dont make a pt car, interiors dont make a pt car, a roll bar doesnt make pt car, heating up the front springs and lowering bolcks dont make up a pt car, and by god just putting on 17's and 18's dont make a pt car.......................

Bill, that's more like a Canyon Runner or a Road Warrior to me - Pro Touring in my opinion is a little more RELAXED and has the aspect of passing a few Gas Stations; besides if it got too boaring, I could park the Boler and with 3.08's, enter a CanonBall - LOL

but i hate when people put 17's and 18's on a car and call it a pro touring car....kills me!!!!!!!!!!! its got to carve a canyon........(imo) its all good!!!!

A true pro touring car must have a front suspension that is not factory, it must be altered for cornering deep and hard turns and must have big brakes on the front to handle this, the tires and rims will also be wider to handle the g's...the rear suspension will also be altered with big brakes and wider tires and rims and will have a set up like dse's quadra link for its cornering abilities...also the pro touring car will be lowered down 2 the ground as it needs to hug the road to grab the next corner...(motor options dont make a pt car, paint jobs dont make a pt car, interiors dont make a pt car, a roll bar doesnt make pt car, heating up the front springs and lowering bolcks dont make up a pt car, and by god just putting on 17's and 18's dont make a pt car.......................
I do think the motor has to do with it.Every PT car I see that I would trade for my PS car that is nice has a non carborated engine that could be started with a remote if need be.A turn of the key and go kinda engine..JMO... But who am I all I have is a Pro-Street lookalike....

how does a 4.3 litre e.f.i motor in a 69 camaro make it pro touring?? pro touring is suspension, not big block or small block, fuel injected or 3 deuces or cross ram set up or security system with remote start...confusius once say to carve a canyon is to pro tour to go straight is to pro street!!!!

A true pro touring car must have a front suspension that is not factory, it must be altered for cornering deep and hard turns and must have big brakes on the front to handle this, the tires and rims will also be wider to handle the g's...the rear suspension will also be altered with big brakes and wider tires and rims and will have a set up like dse's quadra link for its cornering abilities...also the pro touring car will be lowered down 2 the ground as it needs to hug the road to grab the next corner...(motor options dont make a pt car, paint jobs dont make a pt car, interiors dont make a pt car, a roll bar doesnt make pt car, heating up the front springs and lowering bolcks dont make up a pt car, and by god just putting on 17's and 18's dont make a pt car.......................
how does a 4.3 litre e.f.i motor in a 69 camaro make it pro touring?? pro touring is suspension, not big block or small block, fuel injected or 3 deuces or cross ram set up or security system with remote start...confusius once say to carve a canyon is to pro tour to go straight is to pro street!!!!

I don't think a 4.3 liter EFI engine by itself makes a car a pro-touring car any more than just wheels, or just brakes, or just a quadralink make a pro-touring car.

I think a Pro-Touring car is just that, a car that can be comfortably (for an enthusiast) and reliably taken on a long haul while still accelerating powerfully and capable of carving up mountain roads with - or better than - modern cars. In other words, it's about function, not how that function is achieved, and anything that detracts from the function - excessive lowering for example - detracts from the car as a pro-touring car. Long haul reliability tends to mean an EFI motor, simply because of the mileage and easy starting under a wide variety of weather conditions EFI provides. Long haul touring also means some creature comforts - better seats, a stereo, a heater and maybe AC - as well as functional (and improved over stock) lights and wipers. Corner carving means a capable suspension - which can be anything from a Guldstrand modded front sub and good springs, shocks and suspension bushings throughout all the way to an aftermarket subframe and rear suspension system - as well as good brakes, tires and wheels to take the tires.

I tend to discount big blocks from Pro-touring because they place even more weight on the front end of a car (Camaro for this site) that's already front end heavy. I think - in addition to the easy power they make - one of the attactions of the LSx engines for pro-touring is their lower weight.

So for me pro-touring is long haul comfort, neck snapping acceleration and corner carving with or better than modern sporty cars. How anyone gets there doesn't really matter, and the less conventional the route (while still providing the function) the more impressed I am.

so better seats and a better radio system means you got a pro touring car...hmmmm!!! we are talking about PRO touring cars not touring cars.....so a car with all the upgrades done to the suspension and brakes and wheels and tires and a 350 motor with a holley and p.s and ac and a factory radio that works is not pro touring.....hmmmm!! comfort is in the driver......pro touring is in the suspesion!!!! p.s a efi motor is no more reliable than a 350 with a holley on it.. bet you your efi will leave you stranded on the side of the road before my carbed 350 will.......the title of the forum says what would constitute a pro touring set up? not what do think a pro touring car is?....i dont mean to sound harsh...its just a debate, its all good fun!!! We are here at t.c to grow, learn, and teach others our legacy...

Pro touring.Is their a book of rules on this.If so where is the bible on this 'CULT' and who wrote it???

Pro touring.Is their a book of rules on this.If so where is the bible on this 'CULT' and who wrote it???AMEN..................:hurray:

so better seats and a better radio system means you got a pro touring car...hmmmm!!! we are talking about PRO touring cars not touring cars.....so a car with all the upgrades done to the suspension and brakes and wheels and tires and a 350 motor with a holley and p.s and ac and a factory radio that works is not pro touring.....hmmmm!! comfort is in the driver......pro touring is in the suspesion!!!! p.s a efi motor is no more reliable than a 350 with a holley on it.. bet you your efi will leave you stranded on the side of the road before my carbed 350 will.......the title of the forum says what would constitute a pro touring set up? not what do think a pro touring car is?....

Try reading the entire post. I didn't say better seats and a radio MAKE a pro-touring car, I said I thought they were components of a pro-touring car. I've driven my car hard on mountain roads with the stock seats and immediately went to find seats that held me in the car better than the stock buckets. If you drive a car hard, the seats are pretty critical. You disagree, that's fine.

I find the stock radio to be pretty inadequate when I'm 1,000 miles from home and have no idea what stations are available. I like the ability to play CD's and tapes and will convert to an MP3 player soon. You like listening to static, that's fine.

As for getting stranded, I find that that's most often the result of the parts selected and the work done. I'm comfortable driving my EFI car anywhere in almost any weather. You like your carbed 350, that's fine.

The question was "What would constitute a pro touring set up?" I was offering my opinion, which is different than yours.

Pro touring.Is their a book of rules on this.If so where is the bible on this 'CULT' and who wrote it???

ahhh, didja miss the first page, I put the rules there:

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Yes there is, its www.what a protouring car should be.com look at gen;1-4 the making of a pro touring car (lol)

ahhh, didja miss the first page, I put the rules there:

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Jim: You and I are pretty much in the same place on this. The whole name, theme etc. BS thing drives me crazy; the function is what counts. Your car is pro-touring in my book and I don't even know what seats or radio you have. :D

Bill, Pro-Touring is a made up name for taking an old car and updating it with better ride, creature comfort and performance. There is no defined level that has to be met. The "tim the tool man, arg-arg" bigger is better in guys has led to some over the top builds that are setting the goals of a lot of folks and that seems to take the the definition of PT to a new level. The thing is it's still just a name so it's going to mean different things to different people.

I love all aspects of cars, PT, PS, stock or modified at any level. It's all about the cars, I grew up hotrodding them and calling them hotrods... PT and PS is still of form of hotrodding with new names depecting a direction the builder has gone in. Beyond that it's really up to the builder to define the name for himself.

I robbed this from a post on the so called site. Stock setup here. No wonder pro-touring is so popular.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa251/Payback1969/Roundup1.jpg

I think I understand.Mods for performance and handling from stock.We used to call them HOTRODS.

Dennis, your right, enough said, i agree

I still call mine a hot rod.

A pro-touring car is a build, anything else is just project.....or what ever else you call it besides "A build" :secret:l:)

A pro-touring car is a build, anything else is just project.....or what ever else you call it besides "A build" :secret:l:)
I am a PS guy and I am not feeling this statement.

I guess I need a theme and a rendering! Would "updated classic" qualify as a theme?

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

Jim,
You forgot a flash web page chronicling the build:D

A few heated debates over the years have given way to an actual theme of what constitutes a pro-touring car.
My opinion of Pro-Touring is; a road race capable car.
A recent thread on "Who built the first Pro-Touring Car" resulted in a consensus that the first Pro-Touring build was in fact -The Big red Camaro-.

A few heated debates over the years have given way to an actual theme of what constitutes a pro-touring car.
My opinion of Pro-Touring is; a road race capable car.
A recent thread on "Who built the first Pro-Touring Car" resulted in a consensus that the first Pro-Touring build was in fact -The Big red Camaro-.

I can agree with BIg Red being the first one but was it street legal? If not then it's just my opinion that a PT car no matter the mods of off the chart or simple, the car has to be street legal.

Big Red looks like it got a new full tube chassis. It would however be street legal as long as it had mufflers.


Here is picture from SEMA and the article about Big Red from the website:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/3017803968_1e3feb0044.jpg?v=0







In 1987 Dan Gottlieb and his son RJ had a goal: to build the ultimate muscle car that could beat any modern production car on the road. This is the story of “Big Red.”
The car known today as Big Red is the second of two cars that were built. Big Red “One” was a highly modified 1969 Camaro that used the original production chassis. Unfortunately, Big Red One was destroyed in a high-speed crash. This crash occurred when Big Red One debuted in the La Carerra road race in Mexico. Based on lessons learned from the crash, Big Red “Two” was built afterward with a custom stock car tube chassis. This is the car that set records and has been profiled in magazine articles.Big Red One was modified and improved to satisfy three requirements: 1) be able to beat any super production car; 2) have the “look” of a production 1969 Camaro, i.e., glass windshield, original dashboard, workable doors/windows, no flared fenders; and 3) most of all, be reliable enough to maintain speeds in excess of 200 mph for over an hour.The engine was designed and built on the philosophy that in order to produce “big” horsepower there is no replacement for displacement. This is especially true for big-horsepower engines that demand high-speed long-term reliability. As such, it was decided to avoid forced
induction (blowers, turbos, nitrous tanks) and substitute cubic inches. An aluminum “big-block” Donavan engine bored to 540 cubic inches was built and produced nearly 800 hp with 750 ft.-lbs. of torque in a dyno test run. The aluminum block also had the advantage of reducing weight off the front end of the car, as the 1969 Camaro design is especially front-end heavy.The engine was originally built by the late, great John Lingenfelter.
However, the engine has been upgraded and redone several times over the years by Larry Mollicone. Larry had considerable experience in building highly modified big-block engines. Most racecars with a V-8 engine use the small-block Chevy engine (350 cubic inches or less). Larry builds race boat engines that usually use the big-block Chevy engine. This expertise is important due to the demanding conditions Big Red would be put through in road races that are run flat-out for 90 to 120 miles.
In April 1988, Big Red One debuted at the La Carerra Road Race in Ensenada, Mexico. This race was a 120-mile flat-out road race, held twice a year. In the spring the race went from Ensenada to San Felipe. In the fall, it reversed course and went from San Felipe to Ensenada. Motorcycles went first and 30 minutes later the racecars were released. The fastest cars would go first, with a 1-minute delay between each car (thus trying to avoid passing during the race). Big Red One was in the unlimited class, competing with many types of street rods, including exotic Ferraris and turbo Porsches.This was Big Red One’s initial debut in the La Carerra and it was consequently put in 3rd position at the start of the race. Not knowing what Big Red One was capable of, the lineup was not questioned. Once the race started, Big Red One quickly caught up and passed the two lead cars, which were a highly modified Pantera and a sloped-nose, twin-turbo Porsche 911. In fact, Big Red One would eventually even catch the slower motorcycles.In order to know how fast the car was going, a white hash mark was put on the tachometer at 6,900 RPM. It was calculated that in 4th gear, at 6,900 RPM the car would be traveling at about 190 miles per hour. On several of the long straight-aways of the race Big Red One turned 7,100 rpm (over 200 mph!).

Unfortunately, near the end of the race, while still in the lead position, a mechanical failure in the steering caused R.J. to lose control and crash at over 140 mph. RJ and co-driver Chris Kaufmann (who drove the first leg of the race) received only minor scrapes and bruises while Big Red One, except for the engine and rear end, was completely totaled.Lessons of what not to do became self-evident after the crash; simply adding race parts and a full roll cage to a production 1969 Camaro does not make a racecar. At speeds over 200 mph, equipment is stressed to the maximum and only a fully designed and built racecar could meet the demands.Racecar designer and builder Bill Osborne of Inland Chassis Design was given the challenge to build Big Red Two from the ground up. He concluded that the best way to achieve the performance and aesthetic requirements was to drop an actual 1969 Camaro production body over a stock car tube chassis. From that point on, the car would be all racing parts with Koni coilover springs and shocks, a fuel cell, Alcon twin caliper vented disc brakes, a 4-speed Jerrico transmission, a dry sump oil system and a 9-inch Detroit locker rear end. The Lingenfelter engine from Big Red One was upgraded and given a complete overhaul down to the crank by Larry Mollicone.Once completed, Big Red Two (from here on out just Big Red) was taken to Willow Springs Raceway and tested. This Big Red was more responsive, lower to the ground and much more nimble through the turns. It was clear that this was the right combination and Big Red was now going to be an even tougher competitor.
Initially, Big Red was only tested on enclosed race tracks where the longest straight-aways were not long enough to reach top speed. The result was that Big Red competed in several events breaking the 200-mph barrier while having plenty of horsepower to spare. Finally a “taller” (lower ratio) gear was installed in the rear end and consequently Big Red was now able to achieve the legendary speeds of over 220 mph!Dave Ward of Precision Welding was given the responsibility of Crew
Chief for the Big Red Team. Over the years he has made many changes and upgrades to the suspension and chassis, including finding the right gear ratios for track and open road races. After Big Red competes in an event, Dave is responsible for post-race inspections and necessary follow-up maintenance.In the next La Carerra race, Big Red was again given the 3rd starting position. RJ would be piloting again but this time it was RJ’s father, Dan, who would be the navigator/co-driver. The race started smoothly and Big Red again took the lead within 20 miles. There were also subsequent La Carerra races, including one in which Bill Osborne, the chassis designer, was the navigator/co-driver. When the races were over, Big Red not only won the La Carerra road race but also had set the record.

However, shortly thereafter (1990), the La Carerra road race was changed. Sponsorship changed from an American organization to a Mexican organization and instead of being a flat-out top-speed road race, it now became a road rally. The change may have taken place due to several tragic accidents resulting in the deaths of race participants, in both the motorcycle and racecar divisions.Certainly there were problems with attempting to do high-speed runs on roads in Mexico. Several close calls demonstrated the danger to RJ and his father – such as nearly hitting a cow at top speed that was walking slowly across the road. Another memorable close encounter was with an ambulance in a portion of the race that “snaked” though the mountains. The ambulance was responding to a Pantera that had gone over the edge on a turn and ended up a hundred feet down the side of a cliff. If a bad accident occurred, an American hospital was hundreds of miles away and across the border.By this time, articles in Hot Rod and other magazines had given Big Red considerable notoriety. As a result, Road & Track invited Big Red to a top-speed challenge at Nissan’s 5-mile oval test track. The competitors were all highly modified production cars, including a 308 twin-turbo glycol-inter-cooled Testarossa, Motor Sport Design’s 911 Turbo slant nose, an AC Cobra, a high-boost 20th Anniversary Trans-Am, a big-block Iroc-Z, Hör Technologies’ BMW M3 and a Pantera. Big Red beat them all, achieving 203 mph through the speed traps. In fact, no other competitors even broke 200 mph.After the demise of the La Carerra Road Race, Dan was determined to start a new open road race north of the border in the United States with the help of car enthusiast Cliff Jones (of Vintage Auto Racing Club) and three-time Indy winner Roger Ward. With their effort and shared excitement for founding such an event, local authorities were contacted and six months later the Silver State Classic was to become a reality. The route that was chosen was a 94-mile stretch of Nevada highway leading from Lund to Hiko, a couple of hours outside Las Vegas.

The first Silver State Classic had ideal conditions because the 94-mile stretch of highway dedicated to the race was newly paved. RJ was the driver, with Joe Pettit as co-driver. Joe was a freelance editor to the muscle-car magazines at the time and is editor-in-chief at Sport Truck Magazine today. Big Red was given the pole position in the Unlimited Class and never looked back. The time ended up being a record that still stands today: 27 minutes, 54 seconds, averaging 197.99 mph with a top speed of 222 mph! The race was a bit scarier for RJ’s father, who began in 5th position in a highly modified 1991 Corvette. Having passed the 4th-place car, the race was going well until Dan saw a long column of smoke rising into the air in the distance. Going 170 mph, he came upon it quickly and was horrified to see a red car in flames and mangled beyond recognition! His co-driver Russ Persely caught a glimpse of a 5-spoke chrome wheel (Big Red had mesh-type gold wheels) and reassured him that it was must not have been Big Red, but instead the Testarossa, which had started second. As it turned out, it was indeed the Testarossa and the driver was thrown from the car and seriously injured. He was airlifted by helicopter to a nearby hospital. Unfortunately for his co-driver, the accident was fatal.
In the next Silver State Classic, RJ finished first again with an average speed of 189.25 mph and a top speed of 208. The lower speed was due to a leaky intake valve and a less perfect highway than the year before.

In addition to making headlines in road racing circles, Big Red was also influential with people who wanted to do similar modifications on their own cars. (For example, in 1988 car enthusiast Larry Callahan, inspired by an article about Big Red in Car Craft magazine, began to modify his own ’68 Camaro with modern race equipment.) This was the beginning of what is known today as Pro-Touring. A Pro-Touring vehicle starts with a classic American muscle car from the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s and then updated with state-of-the-art performance parts. Eventually, Larry set up a message board dedicated to Pro-Touring (www.pro-touring.com) and what started off as a small question and answer forum has grown into a high-tech Vbulletin with over 3,000 members. Today, Larry credits Big Red as the original Pro-Touring car from which it all began.In 1996, Big Red was retired to a car museum in Laughlin, Nevada, where it spent 8 years on display to fans and curious onlookers. Then in 2004, Dan and RJ decided it was time for the legend of Big Red to ride again. Big Red was given a complete overhaul with the engine being rebuilt, the suspension and chassis updated and inspected, and the exterior repainted.Join our newsletter for updates on the next Big Red event!

Would a 4-link be considered PT or a PS setup? It seems like more of a PS setup, but it seems that it is the most common aftermarket suspension installed on the gen 1.

The straight bar four link that has aftermarket frame rails is PS I would think.

Big Red looks like it got a new full tube chassis. It would however be street legal as long as it had mufflers.


Here is picture from SEMA and the article about Big Red from the website:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3008/3017803968_1e3feb0044.jpg?v=0







In 1987 Dan Gottlieb and his son RJ had a goal: to build the ultimate muscle car that could beat any modern production car on the road. This is the story of “Big Red.”
The car known today as Big Red is the second of two cars that were built. Big Red “One” was a highly modified 1969 Camaro that used the original production chassis. Unfortunately, Big Red One was destroyed in a high-speed crash. This crash occurred when Big Red One debuted in the La Carerra road race in Mexico. Based on lessons learned from the crash, Big Red “Two” was built afterward with a custom stock car tube chassis. This is the car that set records and has been profiled in magazine articles.Big Red One was modified and improved to satisfy three requirements: 1) be able to beat any super production car; 2) have the “look” of a production 1969 Camaro, i.e., glass windshield, original dashboard, workable doors/windows, no flared fenders; and 3) most of all, be reliable enough to maintain speeds in excess of 200 mph for over an hour.The engine was designed and built on the philosophy that in order to produce “big” horsepower there is no replacement for displacement. This is especially true for big-horsepower engines that demand high-speed long-term reliability. As such, it was decided to avoid forced
induction (blowers, turbos, nitrous tanks) and substitute cubic inches. An aluminum “big-block” Donavan engine bored to 540 cubic inches was built and produced nearly 800 hp with 750 ft.-lbs. of torque in a dyno test run. The aluminum block also had the advantage of reducing weight off the front end of the car, as the 1969 Camaro design is especially front-end heavy.The engine was originally built by the late, great John Lingenfelter.
However, the engine has been upgraded and redone several times over the years by Larry Mollicone. Larry had considerable experience in building highly modified big-block engines. Most racecars with a V-8 engine use the small-block Chevy engine (350 cubic inches or less). Larry builds race boat engines that usually use the big-block Chevy engine. This expertise is important due to the demanding conditions Big Red would be put through in road races that are run flat-out for 90 to 120 miles.
In April 1988, Big Red One debuted at the La Carerra Road Race in Ensenada, Mexico. This race was a 120-mile flat-out road race, held twice a year. In the spring the race went from Ensenada to San Felipe. In the fall, it reversed course and went from San Felipe to Ensenada. Motorcycles went first and 30 minutes later the racecars were released. The fastest cars would go first, with a 1-minute delay between each car (thus trying to avoid passing during the race). Big Red One was in the unlimited class, competing with many types of street rods, including exotic Ferraris and turbo Porsches.This was Big Red One’s initial debut in the La Carerra and it was consequently put in 3rd position at the start of the race. Not knowing what Big Red One was capable of, the lineup was not questioned. Once the race started, Big Red One quickly caught up and passed the two lead cars, which were a highly modified Pantera and a sloped-nose, twin-turbo Porsche 911. In fact, Big Red One would eventually even catch the slower motorcycles.In order to know how fast the car was going, a white hash mark was put on the tachometer at 6,900 RPM. It was calculated that in 4th gear, at 6,900 RPM the car would be traveling at about 190 miles per hour. On several of the long straight-aways of the race Big Red One turned 7,100 rpm (over 200 mph!).

Unfortunately, near the end of the race, while still in the lead position, a mechanical failure in the steering caused R.J. to lose control and crash at over 140 mph. RJ and co-driver Chris Kaufmann (who drove the first leg of the race) received only minor scrapes and bruises while Big Red One, except for the engine and rear end, was completely totaled.Lessons of what not to do became self-evident after the crash; simply adding race parts and a full roll cage to a production 1969 Camaro does not make a racecar. At speeds over 200 mph, equipment is stressed to the maximum and only a fully designed and built racecar could meet the demands.Racecar designer and builder Bill Osborne of Inland Chassis Design was given the challenge to build Big Red Two from the ground up. He concluded that the best way to achieve the performance and aesthetic requirements was to drop an actual 1969 Camaro production body over a stock car tube chassis. From that point on, the car would be all racing parts with Koni coilover springs and shocks, a fuel cell, Alcon twin caliper vented disc brakes, a 4-speed Jerrico transmission, a dry sump oil system and a 9-inch Detroit locker rear end. The Lingenfelter engine from Big Red One was upgraded and given a complete overhaul down to the crank by Larry Mollicone.Once completed, Big Red Two (from here on out just Big Red) was taken to Willow Springs Raceway and tested. This Big Red was more responsive, lower to the ground and much more nimble through the turns. It was clear that this was the right combination and Big Red was now going to be an even tougher competitor.
Initially, Big Red was only tested on enclosed race tracks where the longest straight-aways were not long enough to reach top speed. The result was that Big Red competed in several events breaking the 200-mph barrier while having plenty of horsepower to spare. Finally a “taller” (lower ratio) gear was installed in the rear end and consequently Big Red was now able to achieve the legendary speeds of over 220 mph!Dave Ward of Precision Welding was given the responsibility of Crew
Chief for the Big Red Team. Over the years he has made many changes and upgrades to the suspension and chassis, including finding the right gear ratios for track and open road races. After Big Red competes in an event, Dave is responsible for post-race inspections and necessary follow-up maintenance.In the next La Carerra race, Big Red was again given the 3rd starting position. RJ would be piloting again but this time it was RJ’s father, Dan, who would be the navigator/co-driver. The race started smoothly and Big Red again took the lead within 20 miles. There were also subsequent La Carerra races, including one in which Bill Osborne, the chassis designer, was the navigator/co-driver. When the races were over, Big Red not only won the La Carerra road race but also had set the record.

However, shortly thereafter (1990), the La Carerra road race was changed. Sponsorship changed from an American organization to a Mexican organization and instead of being a flat-out top-speed road race, it now became a road rally. The change may have taken place due to several tragic accidents resulting in the deaths of race participants, in both the motorcycle and racecar divisions.Certainly there were problems with attempting to do high-speed runs on roads in Mexico. Several close calls demonstrated the danger to RJ and his father – such as nearly hitting a cow at top speed that was walking slowly across the road. Another memorable close encounter was with an ambulance in a portion of the race that “snaked” though the mountains. The ambulance was responding to a Pantera that had gone over the edge on a turn and ended up a hundred feet down the side of a cliff. If a bad accident occurred, an American hospital was hundreds of miles away and across the border.By this time, articles in Hot Rod and other magazines had given Big Red considerable notoriety. As a result, Road & Track invited Big Red to a top-speed challenge at Nissan’s 5-mile oval test track. The competitors were all highly modified production cars, including a 308 twin-turbo glycol-inter-cooled Testarossa, Motor Sport Design’s 911 Turbo slant nose, an AC Cobra, a high-boost 20th Anniversary Trans-Am, a big-block Iroc-Z, Hör Technologies’ BMW M3 and a Pantera. Big Red beat them all, achieving 203 mph through the speed traps. In fact, no other competitors even broke 200 mph.After the demise of the La Carerra Road Race, Dan was determined to start a new open road race north of the border in the United States with the help of car enthusiast Cliff Jones (of Vintage Auto Racing Club) and three-time Indy winner Roger Ward. With their effort and shared excitement for founding such an event, local authorities were contacted and six months later the Silver State Classic was to become a reality. The route that was chosen was a 94-mile stretch of Nevada highway leading from Lund to Hiko, a couple of hours outside Las Vegas.

The first Silver State Classic had ideal conditions because the 94-mile stretch of highway dedicated to the race was newly paved. RJ was the driver, with Joe Pettit as co-driver. Joe was a freelance editor to the muscle-car magazines at the time and is editor-in-chief at Sport Truck Magazine today. Big Red was given the pole position in the Unlimited Class and never looked back. The time ended up being a record that still stands today: 27 minutes, 54 seconds, averaging 197.99 mph with a top speed of 222 mph! The race was a bit scarier for RJ’s father, who began in 5th position in a highly modified 1991 Corvette. Having passed the 4th-place car, the race was going well until Dan saw a long column of smoke rising into the air in the distance. Going 170 mph, he came upon it quickly and was horrified to see a red car in flames and mangled beyond recognition! His co-driver Russ Persely caught a glimpse of a 5-spoke chrome wheel (Big Red had mesh-type gold wheels) and reassured him that it was must not have been Big Red, but instead the Testarossa, which had started second. As it turned out, it was indeed the Testarossa and the driver was thrown from the car and seriously injured. He was airlifted by helicopter to a nearby hospital. Unfortunately for his co-driver, the accident was fatal.
In the next Silver State Classic, RJ finished first again with an average speed of 189.25 mph and a top speed of 208. The lower speed was due to a leaky intake valve and a less perfect highway than the year before.

In addition to making headlines in road racing circles, Big Red was also influential with people who wanted to do similar modifications on their own cars. (For example, in 1988 car enthusiast Larry Callahan, inspired by an article about Big Red in Car Craft magazine, began to modify his own ’68 Camaro with modern race equipment.) This was the beginning of what is known today as Pro-Touring. A Pro-Touring vehicle starts with a classic American muscle car from the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s and then updated with state-of-the-art performance parts. Eventually, Larry set up a message board dedicated to Pro-Touring (www.pro-touring.com (http://www.pro-touring.com)) and what started off as a small question and answer forum has grown into a high-tech Vbulletin with over 3,000 members. Today, Larry credits Big Red as the original Pro-Touring car from which it all began.In 1996, Big Red was retired to a car museum in Laughlin, Nevada, where it spent 8 years on display to fans and curious onlookers. Then in 2004, Dan and RJ decided it was time for the legend of Big Red to ride again. Big Red was given a complete overhaul with the engine being rebuilt, the suspension and chassis updated and inspected, and the exterior repainted.Join our newsletter for updates on the next Big Red event!
I think you have the record for the longest post on this one sounds interesting though....

The straight bar four link that has aftermarket frame rails is PS I would think.

Don't know what it has for sure but when the artical was written vs what's out today for a PT car one of the rear suspension used by some is what's called a truck arm suspension. It's the same thing that's under a NASCAR. I am no suspension expert but if this is what they are talking about I hear they work very well. I personally think there are better ways to go for a street driven 1st gen but as I said I am no suspension expert. I personaly like the Alston rear and the DSE. To me they are less invasive but allow a 1st gen to run a 4 link.

Would be intresting to know if they are speaking of the truck arm set up. If so that may have been a major inovation right there.

.........one of the rear suspension used by some is what's called a truck arm suspension. It's the same thing that's under a NASCAR.

Would be intresting to know if they are speaking of the truck arm set up. If so that may have been a major inovation right there.

The truck arm suspension was used on early to mid '60's Chevrolet C10 trucks. Nascar stock car builders adapted and refined the truck arm suspension which is still in use today in every Nascar stock car. Not sure if that would qualify as a major innovation??


David F.

The truck arm suspension was used on early to mid '60's Chevrolet C10 trucks. Nascar stock car builders adapted and refined the truck arm suspension which is still in use today in every Nascar stock car. Not sure if that would qualify as a major innovation??


David F.

I know the histroy of the suspension but it would be one if it was the first time it was used on a first gen Camaro at the time Big Red was built and worked. If it is then I would call that a major inovation in making the worlds fastest 1st gen with Mid 60's C10 truck styled parts.

I know the histroy of the suspension but it would be one if it was the first time it was used on a first gen Camaro at the time Big Red was built and worked. If it is then I would call that a major inovation in making the worlds fastest 1st gen with Mid 60's C10 truck styled parts.

My bad:yes:. I misinterpreted your comment. It would indeed be an innovation. I mistakenly thought you were just referring to the truck arm suspension and not how it can/has been used.:beers:

David F.

Here's a truckarm setup for 1st gens and others. They've been around a while now:

http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_index.htm

A "Proper" pro touring car must have:

a Name
a Theme
a "Rendering"
and a 100 (minimum) post "Build Thread" on an unnamed popular website.

Attendence at SEMA is required. Long hauling on the power tour recommended, car will be followed by tractor-trailor rig with support crew, spare parts, and 100 "shamWow's" in case it rains.

lmao