I was surprised to hear Team Camaro sold cowl tags taken off other cars. I would say 90% of the members I see on here appose this practice when we see it on Ebay or elsewhere. Although not against the law by any means, most of us feel this is only leading to fraud; and hurts our hobby at its very core. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

I think you pretty much just nailed it on the head. If the practice is simply unethical but not illegal, then TC may not be able to regulate it. Road racing on the other hand is illegal, and they will quickly put an end to a post on illegal racing. I'm not necessarily sure as to whether or not that is the case, but to me it makes sense. As long as the majority of our members agree that the practice is unethical, and don't purchase the tags, I think we'll be fine. You will probably never keep anyone from swapping tags, but fortunately we have experts here who can spot a re-tagged car. And we'll be the first to know when that tag shows up on a car in the near future.

I believed the ads are removed once the mods/admins are notified of them.

We have no way of stopping a trim tag ad from being posted but anytime we are made aware of them they are removed... Mark this is the second post where you have kinda taken a shot at the site for this, please PM Al or myself for any site concerns you may have or at least post site concerns in the "Site Discussion" forum. You can report an ad by clicking the "report product" link on the ad page...

It's stated right on our "Post an Ad" page that vins and cowl tag ads are deleted. Some still try, and although usually short lived before one of our members report the ad, they do get seen for awhile.
I"m not sure where, why or how you were led to believe this was allowed here. It's been fairly well known for years that we simply do not allow them, legal or not. It's a choice we made and is being actively controlled.

As mentioned, we do rely on the members to let us know if something is posted that is out of line, we do not pre-approve the ads.

Hope this covers it.

Al - ads administrator

Okiemark, I'm not intending this to be a slam on you. Your post allowed me to share my opinion on this issue.

While I respect this site for having a policy and sticking to it, and being just as big a numbers freak as most, I do not see the issue with selling original cowl tags. I do not see how it hurts the hobby. It's not a fake tag. Period. If someone builds a car, all original and period correct with a bought original cowl tag, it still doesn't match the VIN in all the known places. If the car snatches good bucks because of the way it's built, even if the cowl and VIN numbers don't match, how does that hurt anyone with an all original pristine down to the crappy rubber and plastic that was used in the 60's? Even if someone built a car to numbers matching specs with a bought VIN and Cowl tag, it still doesn't match all the numbers on the car, period. If someone is unawares, but he or she purchases a period correct almost all numbers matching car for good bucks, how does that hurt this hobby? I think the folks with the 100% originals will continue to demand top top dollar which is way more than these made-up cars will ever command. If the made-up cars rake in good bucks, then it makes the value of the all original, proof in all the right places, cars worth that much more and the reward at selling time that much nicer. Plus, if someone takes the time to build a car period correct to match a cowl, and accomplishes it, how does that hurt our hobby? They just built a pretty darn nice car and became a knowledgeable hobbyist at the same time. The people willing to pay the big big bucks aren't even considering these made cars. And if they do, and pay top dollar, then I see it as a win for those who have the all original down to the torn and faded paperwork, cracking plastic and soon to be bursting rubber hoses. So, unethical, maybe, and that's a big maybe (I'm not certain cause of how many cars with original tags were totally rebuilt down to every panel and frame) but, please, "hurting the hobby" is ridiculous.

With that said, fake tags are a different story, both illegal and just plain wrong. I also believe that calling a tag fake just because of a picture is wrong too. Especially when half the posts say it's fake and the other half say it's not. And usually, when I see these posts, there's rarely ever a discussion as to why the tag is fake. I know why that discussion is with held, but if the poster is wrong, then the person who owns the car was publicly damaged. And constitutionally, that may be worth a car or more.

Al, Dennis, my fault.. didn't know vins and cowl tag ads were deleted, just going by another members post on another thread saying TC alowed it. Should have posted on site discussions as you mentioned. I'm not aware of a previous "swipe" I made at TC??
sorry, this OU/Florida game has me a little on edge.....

I was surprised to hear Team Camaro sold cowl tags taken off other cars. I would say 90% of the members I see on here appose this practice when we see it on Ebay or elsewhere. Although not against the law by any means, most of us feel this is only leading to fraud; and hurts our hobby at its very core. Just wanted to put in my 2 cents.

It's not "TEAM CAMARO" selling the tags as has been pointed out, it's person posting an classifide section that's selling it. "TEAM CAMARO" is site that is owned by AL and his wife, they do not get or take cut from the products sold in those sections unless it's something they sell for them selves or it's site related material and I bet they don't make much on that. Sure they sell some memberships and some ads pop up or show on the sides of the pages but they take nothing from anyone for sales in these areas of all his TEAM sites and never ask you to pay to be a member here.

I have been around way before Team Camaro was ever a site and before Team Chevelle was ever s site, it was just a subcribed to news letter format that grew and we can all thank Al for what we have today.

I could be off base here but the post sounded somewhat like a shot over the bow of Team Camaro and to me that is Al. I will always come to the defence of this man for this site and the others. I am sorry if you did not mean you post to be taken that way but this guy has given many thousands of hours for us to have a place to come togehter with Camaros, Chevelles, Nova's etc. Just report items to the admin when you find them. I agree with you about selling them, it's just the jerks keep coming back. Even the scammers try selling cars here for $3000.00, all we can do is report them. I think we all know that this site would not condone tags being sold here.

Joe

Al, Dennis, my fault.. didn't know vins and cowl tag ads were deleted, just going by another members post on another thread saying TC alowed it. Should have posted on site discussions as you mentioned. I'm not aware of a previous "swipe" I made at TC??
sorry, this OU/Florida game has me a little on edge.....

Computer hung and posted this late!! Did not see this one.

Stope, I'm just not following your logic here. You're okay with an original tag being sold and installed on a different car, but not a repo tag?

Say someone has a clean 307 X44 body, finds an original Z28/SS tag in the same date range (per the VIN), swaps it over, and that's okay?

If the builder does their homework, I would consider an original tag swap more dangerous than one with a repo (even though there are some darn "good" repos out there now).

There is a very small percentage of tag swaps that are used in a manner not to defraud someone (missing or damaged, preferrably with some sort of backup). If the situation was otherwise, you wouldn't see so many tags for sale.

HI rember if they are posted on this site we can keep track of the lose tags

you all make good points..except when a car is built..then sold ..as a "clone " or whatever..then gets resold ...somewhere ...the clone part gets left off and some poor unsuspecting soul...who really wants that type of car ..and does not have any idea of who to get it checked out buy gets burned...or crucified by someone who does know the difference...so...the idea noone gets hurt does not hold up....

Stope, I'm just not following your logic here. You're okay with an original tag being sold and installed on a different car, but not a repo tag?

Say someone has a clean 307 X44 body, finds an original Z28/SS tag in the same date range (per the VIN), swaps it over, and that's okay?

If the builder does their homework, I would consider an original tag swap more dangerous than one with a repo (even though there are some darn "good" repos out there now).

There is a very small percentage of tag swaps that are used in a manner not to defraud someone (missing or damaged, preferrably with some sort of backup). If the situation was otherwise, you wouldn't see so many tags for sale.

Exactly right. Let's stop parseing words. This BS is all about splitting hairs. You either have a real car or you don't. Thhe only reason trim tags are sold is because there are those that will use them to decieve. If that was not the case then who would care if a car had a trim tag or not. DUH! TC can't police all ads and it is no way an approbal by TC of such ads. It is the jerks and unethical people that don't care about the hobby,just how much money they can make,even if it means BS'ing someone else. Do your homework and educate yourselves.

I COULD NOT HAVE CHOSEN WORSE WORDS.... In my original post, I said I was "surprised to hear TC sold tags taken off other cars"... I was referring to the classified ads where OTHER people sometime sell these tags. I know TC does not sell anything. Like I stated above, my first mistake was not posting this in SITE DISCUSSION, bad choice. there are enough threads here about fake or non-original tags without bringing TC into it. I was glad to hear the moderators do their best to discourage it... end of story. Thanks again Team Camaro.

RamAirDave, not trying to be adversarial and I'm wondering if maybe I should just be quiet but I'll try to explain my logic one last time.

There are people with real Z28's, yenkos, baldwin motions, pace cars that have replaced just about everything on their cars, metal, frame, engine, tranny, rearend, etc... If they bought this car they are labeling original with the highly optioned tags, removed them and put it on the new metal, is that o.k.? It's the same thing as buying the original tags and putting on a different car. All the same, if it's original tags I don't see how that hurts anyone. The reason I think fake tags hurt the hobby is because it adds more cars than were originally built. Since there weren't that many of these cars built, more cars equals less demand which equals less money. Plus, there are legal issues surrounding fake VINs. And, again, if someone builds a period correct car with original tags, that car will probably be worth more than if someone builds a period correct car with incorrect tags. It may even bring a very good sales price. If someone buys a car for top dollar and doesn't do their homework, you have to question their smarts. To me $10,000 is not top dollar. When you get into the $20s, $30s, $40s, $50s and up on something that's 50 years old, has a history backing up depreciation over time, and is only worth top dollar because it has all the right tags and paper work, you need to start looking at all the details. If the person chooses not to do some due diligence and buys a clone with incorrect tags for top dollar, it just makes the value of the 100% originals worth that much more because you can point out why that car isn't like yours. Maybe my thought process is off-base but, what I see here is most people are worried about protecting their investment. How does something that preserves your value hurt your investment?

RamAirDave, not trying to be adversarial and I'm wondering if maybe I should just be quiet but I'll try to explain my logic one last time.

There are people with real Z28's, yenkos, baldwin motions, pace cars that have replaced just about everything on their cars, metal, frame, engine, tranny, rearend, etc... If they bought this car they are labeling original with the highly optioned tags, removed them and put it on the new metal, is that o.k.? It's the same thing as buying the original tags and putting on a different car. All the same, if it's original tags I don't see how that hurts anyone. The reason I think fake tags hurt the hobby is because it adds more cars than were originally built. Since there weren't that many of these cars built, more cars equals less demand which equals less money. Plus, there are legal issues surrounding fake VINs. And, again, if someone builds a period correct car with original tags, that car will probably be worth more than if someone builds a period correct car with incorrect tags. It may even bring a very good sales price. If someone buys a car for top dollar and doesn't do their homework, you have to question their smarts. To me $10,000 is not top dollar. When you get into the $20s, $30s, $40s, $50s and up on something that's 50 years old, has a history backing up depreciation over time, and is only worth top dollar because it has all the right tags and paper work, you need to start looking at all the details. If the person chooses not to do some due diligence and buys a clone with incorrect tags for top dollar, it just makes the value of the 100% originals worth that much more because you can point out why that car isn't like yours. Maybe my thought process is off-base but, what I see here is most people are worried about protecting their investment. How does something that preserves your value hurt your investment?

IMO that is a very weak attempt to justify deception and fraud. I have a 100% real documented and judged RS Z28. I don't have to make any excuses for the car. I doubt many cars were bought without trim tags or were in such bad shape that everything including the tag had to be replaced,but of course it was a real Z28,COPO, or Yenko. Give me a break!

Eric - it all boils down to ethic's. I realize someone can replace every maganetic part on their fathers rusted out old Z/28 they pulled out of a field and it's physically the same as someone buying an X77D80 cowl tag on ebay and installing it on the 307 2bbl car and turning it into a Z/28.

Where the line needs to be drawn and the reason so many object to the cowl tag market is ethic's. With dad's car, there was 1 Z/28 that rolled off the assembly line and it was just resurrected. With the ebay bought tag case the build was done and the tag was used to create a new and upgraded car with the intention that the tag is where the money is. Basically the second case the tag gets used for unethical reasons.

Restated:
1 > I have a Z/28 and I did everything necessary to restore it...
2 > I have a plane jane and can make more money if I clone a Z28 and find a new cowl tag to allow me to tell folks it's a real Z.

Along with the ethic's of the bought tag there is a chance the car the tag came off of is sitting in a barn somewhere near a track and was a race car and not one sent to the crusher. The new car gets built with the race cars discarded cowl tag and then someone with all the race car history in a folder decides to restore it. Now you have an extra Z/28 running around...

It all makes sence to me...

Okiemark, I'm not intending this to be a slam on you. Your post allowed me to share my opinion on this issue.

While I respect this site for having a policy and sticking to it, and being just as big a numbers freak as most, I do not see the issue with selling original cowl tags. I do not see how it hurts the hobby. It's not a fake tag. Period. If someone builds a car, all original and period correct with a bought original cowl tag, it still doesn't match the VIN in all the known places. If the car snatches good bucks because of the way it's built, even if the cowl and VIN numbers don't match, how does that hurt anyone with an all original pristine down to the crappy rubber and plastic that was used in the 60's? Even if someone built a car to numbers matching specs with a bought VIN and Cowl tag, it still doesn't match all the numbers on the car, period. If someone is unawares, but he or she purchases a period correct almost all numbers matching car for good bucks, how does that hurt this hobby? I think the folks with the 100% originals will continue to demand top top dollar which is way more than these made-up cars will ever command. If the made-up cars rake in good bucks, then it makes the value of the all original, proof in all the right places, cars worth that much more and the reward at selling time that much nicer. Plus, if someone takes the time to build a car period correct to match a cowl, and accomplishes it, how does that hurt our hobby? They just built a pretty darn nice car and became a knowledgeable hobbyist at the same time. The people willing to pay the big big bucks aren't even considering these made cars. And if they do, and pay top dollar, then I see it as a win for those who have the all original down to the torn and faded paperwork, cracking plastic and soon to be bursting rubber hoses. So, unethical, maybe, and that's a big maybe (I'm not certain cause of how many cars with original tags were totally rebuilt down to every panel and frame) but, please, "hurting the hobby" is ridiculous.

With that said, fake tags are a different story, both illegal and just plain wrong. I also believe that calling a tag fake just because of a picture is wrong too. Especially when half the posts say it's fake and the other half say it's not. And usually, when I see these posts, there's rarely ever a discussion as to why the tag is fake. I know why that discussion is with held, but if the poster is wrong, then the person who owns the car was publicly damaged. And constitutionally, that may be worth a car or more.

Wheather you agree or disagree with the fundamentals of tag selling or swapping. BOTTOM LINE THE SITE DOES NOT ALLOW IT. PERIOD.

RamAirDave, not trying to be adversarial and I'm wondering if maybe I should just be quiet but I'll try to explain my logic one last time.

There are people with real Z28's, yenkos, baldwin motions, pace cars that have replaced just about everything on their cars, metal, frame, engine, tranny, rearend, etc... If they bought this car they are labeling original with the highly optioned tags, removed them and put it on the new metal, is that o.k.? It's the same thing as buying the original tags and putting on a different car. All the same, if it's original tags I don't see how that hurts anyone. The reason I think fake tags hurt the hobby is because it adds more cars than were originally built. Since there weren't that many of these cars built, more cars equals less demand which equals less money. Plus, there are legal issues surrounding fake VINs. And, again, if someone builds a period correct car with original tags, that car will probably be worth more than if someone builds a period correct car with incorrect tags. It may even bring a very good sales price. If someone buys a car for top dollar and doesn't do their homework, you have to question their smarts. To me $10,000 is not top dollar. When you get into the $20s, $30s, $40s, $50s and up on something that's 50 years old, has a history backing up depreciation over time, and is only worth top dollar because it has all the right tags and paper work, you need to start looking at all the details. If the person chooses not to do some due diligence and buys a clone with incorrect tags for top dollar, it just makes the value of the 100% originals worth that much more because you can point out why that car isn't like yours. Maybe my thought process is off-base but, what I see here is most people are worried about protecting their investment. How does something that preserves your value hurt your investment?How would you feel if you were the buyer of the B-J green Z28 last year? Pay top dollar for a restored Z28 only to find out that it was a clone with real tags?
Ron

Again, I'm glad to hear this site doesn't allow selling of tags. As stated earlier, that was an error on my part relying on bad info and poor choice of words... what I don't like is when someone says, "you have to do your homework" or "due dillegance" when looking at a car to buy. Of course you do. I've crawled under more rear-ends (cars that is) than I can recall. I've jotted down seat belt info, glass info... you name it. But, I certainly don't know everything to look for. There's guys on this site that could turn any Camaro into a Z-28 and I wouldn't know it. Now, think what it's like for someone who's not as knowledgable as us. (I just learned last week that the "B" on my tag stood for black vinly roof) How many "average" car fans out there know what size hose goes with what car? Or what a prop valvue is? The book I learned most of my Camaro info from was very good but didn't touch on half the stuff I've learned on this site. So, just because you don't know everything to look for doesn't mean you should be allowed to be duped by someone with that intent.

I would say you have to do you "homework" and for people like us that know it needs to be done because of the people that can make a very convincing fake car to most or some of us. If your a member of this site and have contributed and know you can get the info you need to make an informed decision on the purchase of a high $$$ car then you have done your homework. If your at BJ and just have the cash to spend because the paint is shiney and the auction says it's a Z28 you better watch out. These car guys have to know fraud is rampent in this hobby for the big $$$ cars. I don't understand why some toss large amounts at cars they may know nothing about. That said some come know exacly what they are there to bid on and attempt to buy.

Oki is right though when he said So, "just because you don't know everything to look for doesn't mean you should be allowed to be duped by someone with that intent." I guess the only way you avoid that is by doing homework.......the sad thing is we have to do it these days even when buying pet food and other products. What even worse is some get hurt before others learn in all aspects from pet food to cars. Criminals suck!!

I'd ask STOPE4 if he buys 'designer' label clothing? If so, how would he feel about paying 'designer' prices, and only getting a 'designer tag' with 'chinese/taiwan' quality clothing??? Although this isn't not exactly the same thing, it's close. A mfg tag is to define HOW an item was built by the manufacturer.. nothing else. To change/modify/etc is to destroy that information forever......

This tag thing???
Surely the system is at fault???
In NZ I can make a ground up restore, no orginal tag...

Every vin number is regist to a number plate.
Every sale must notify the Gov agency of the new owner of vin/numberplate/car.
Every number plate has to renew regist every 12 months
If not it is held; for 12 months, if then no regist, it is then automatically de regist.
If one has a project in the shed, but not intendingf to start or finish for a long time one can put the regist/vin on hold.
If a car is say written off/crushed the number plates are handed back to the Gov agency...

If I build a car...from scratch, I have to apply for a vin and numberplate, and be able to prove it is a new car /rod.
If I build a new car from an old body, and it has no vin, the above applies
If it does have a tag, be it genuine or retaged, I have to be able to prove that is the right tag for the body, and prove Im the legal owner of the tag before I can get new number plates .

Steptoe, I think you are referring to the VIN number and associated plates/ids on the car, whereas this question is concerning the mfg data plate, which doesn't carry VIN information, but does identify some other characteristics of the unit build, such as color, interior, etc....

I'm sorry folks but if I'm going to pay $50K for a 40 year old car, I'm going to make sure I'm getting what I'm paying for. If others don't do that shame on them. Beleive me, I would never switch or sell a tag myself, but I'm curious about others logic for getting so upset over this.

DJD, I get your point and it makes sense. If someone can make two cars out of one and call both the same thing then it does depreciate values. I didn't think of this but you are right, it could be done.

Gary, I don't worry about tags on clothing and would never buy clothes because it's "designer". Hell, I'm not even sure I know what that means for mens clothing. All I worry about is how it looks and whether it fits.

Gary, no slam here but I think Steptoe makes a great point about why things are so screwed up. If all the tags were tracked by car from the beginning, then this could be prevented. In a way, thats what folks are doing here but it's being done after the car has been used for 40 years versus doing it when the car was built. I think car companies do this today.

but I'm curious about others logic for getting so upset over this.

Might have something to do with crooks and fraud, but maybe I'm wrong :rolleyes:

It's one thing to restore a shot to heck car, as long as it is something that at least resembles a "car" to start with. Do whatever it takes in the scope of resto. That's fine. Sure there isn't a specific definition of what is a "car", but if it takes much justification, then it probably isn't. Just MO

But if you only have something like this (as an example) to start with:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/Random/9N509772.jpg


That's not really restoration, is it?

TooCoolz28, I'm not saying it couldn't happen to me, but top dollar from me for a first gen Z28 means lots and lots of questions, many, many pictures and the hiring of an expert to look the car over. I may even go look at it myself, but I would never purchase the car until I knew all the tags and hidden VINs lined up. If someone has the money to pay top dollar for a restored Z28, then adding $1000 to get the car inspected to insure it's the real deal is almost required. It's just too much money not to do it for something whose history may or may not be fully known. If someone chooses not to do this and buy's the fake car, while I may feel sorry for them, I would not blame the seller. I would blame the buyer. You may think that's pretty harsh but the term "buyer beware" didn't come to be because of me. It's been around for as long this old fart can remember. Plus, I've never trusted a car salesman and car owners selling a car are car salesmen. For you car salesmen out there, don't get upset over this. I said I don't trust you not dislike you. Over time, I could come to trust you.

RamAir, not much metal there. I get the point but there are still hidden VINs that need to match. If they don't, unless repairs have been well documented, it's not a matching car.

There's no easy answers regarding this issue. If there is value in something, people are always going to try and swindle others. We just need to arm ourselves with as much knowledge as possible to try and prevent it from happening to us. And even that is not a guarantee.

I think the entire hobbie is out of control! These cars should only be worth the sum of there parts. In other words, if you built a Z28, RS, SS, COPO, etc..clone, the price should be determined by what it cost to properly build that car. I would never pay 10, 15, 20, 30K for a rusted out Z28 or whatever just because it had the born with drivetrain. That car will cost way too much to rebuild to like new specs. I also agree that once you start changing every panel and frame and hose and interior, and all the parts necessary to restore the car, that car is no longer the car that rolled off the assembly line, and should only be worth what it cost to build + or - a little. I'm completely disagree with fake tags or fooling people into believing something is what it isn't, but the bottom line is, a nicely restored car should be worth more than a basket case, and what people are paying the big bucks for is a top notch restoration. I'm building my 68 to match the tag, but the engine is certainely not original or even correct. I don't care. I want my car to look like a 68 396/375 car. It will look that way, but the engine is a 454 destroked to 427. It is a real RS and Manual Tranny car. Now if I paint the car with a spray can and use AutoZone steering wheel and cheap chrome, then the car should not be worth much. If I have the car painted professionally in laquer and every visual detail is as correct as I can make it, then the car should be worth some money. This whole numbers matching thing is ridiculous IMHO. You don't need "numbers matching" to relieve your youth. You can enjoy a properly built "clone, tribute" or a nicely restored car as I prefer to put it just as much as the "real thing". They should both perform the same if built correctly. Cars were never investments from the beginning, and today's new cars certainely aren't so why treat these as investments? That's where everyone went wrong, and that's why we constantly have to hear about the "fake tag" "real tag" issues and the ethics involved in these cars. Just enjoy your cars, and buy what you can afford and be happy with it. If you are looking for an investment, buy stocks and real estate. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but reading some of these posts has made me feel like my car is worth nothing just because it didn't have the correct engine or POP or build sheet. In all honesty it's making me hate the hobby more and more. I love this site for all the great people and info, but sometimes it kills my drive for the hobby. Sorry if I upset anyone.

Thanks for reading my rant,

Rick

Rick - it's not the site and the folks here killing your drive for the hobby as you say. It's a lot of people in general and the site and the guys here are just holding the magnifying glass over the picture so we can see some details a bit better. Ya can't fault someone for wanting an original, it doesn't matter if we are talking cars or stamps or paintings.

Putting money aside given the choice of having a copy of something or having the real deal there is little doubt everyone's 1st pic is the real deal. Reality steps in and there are not enough real deals to go around so money does factor in and the real deal goes to the guy with the biggest wallet. That's supply and demand pure and simple, those that can't afford do without or settle for a copy they can afford.

Next comes human nature and this goes back to the guy picking the apple from the tree. We all have temptations and a lot of folks take looking out for #1 too far. Happens in everything in life not just Camaro's or classic cars. Everyone has a different level of morality, I know a guy that wouldn't cheat on his taxes, if he found your wallet in the street would track you down and return it with nothing missing, even if it cost him money to do so. The same guy would sleep with your wife if the opportunity presented itself and can't grasp where that is wrong.

IMO in this hobby the most common offender is a victim first; the guy that is sold a real SS and later finds out it's not and isn't willing to take ownership of the situation. He'll just ignore those trying to inform him and will sell the car as it was bought so as to not take a loss. These are guys that otherwise teach their kids 2 wrongs don't make a right but because they are in a position to say "I bought it as an SS" write off the moral issue...

Anyway the hobby is just a microcosm of the real world we live in so don't let it get to you...

RamAir, not much metal there. I get the point but there are still hidden VINs that need to match. If they don't, unless repairs have been well documented, it's not a matching car.

There's no easy answers regarding this issue. If there is value in something, people are always going to try and swindle others. We just need to arm ourselves with as much knowledge as possible to try and prevent it from happening to us. And even that is not a guarantee.

Even the hidden vins are being put onto bogus cars, it's not like people can't match 40 year old tooling to stamp a number. There have been pictures on this site of vins that have been cut or replaced with bogus stuff.

Like the above picture if the tags are all that was started with then the entire car is a fraud. The seller has commited a crime punishable by law or liable and can be taken to court.

I personally am very glad I own just a jane 67, no worries. It's also pretty sad when a guy shows up with an SS or Z28 at show the first responce these days "it it a real Z or SS?" Some people tell you if you ask but why ask just enjoy the show and cars.

I guess I've been guilty of asking if a car was real or not. I just normally enjoy seeing the cars. For me it's all about seeing a car the way it was when it was new. What I guess I'm trying to say is that I like the look of the old technology..the simplicity and such. To me I guess it doesn't matter if the block, transmission, rear-end or any of that stuff was born on the car, as long as it looks correct. I think I'm just different than most people. Quality of the restoration is my focus. Thanks to everyone for not taking offense to my post. you guys are great!

Rick, I agree with you on nearly every point you've made. The only thing I would mention is if the 'numbers matching' mindset starts to get to you, stay out of the 'Tag-Team' and 'Restoration Corner' forums for a few days. That's sorta the whole point of these particular forums - especially for those who take their numbers seriously. Nothin' wrong with that. :)

Since we are talking about tags and there is a post already about the ZL1 that sold on Barrett-Jackson, I think that is a perfect example of how tags being put on a non original car can affect the value of the car and how it can mis-represent a car. Numbers matching is one thing, but moving a VIN tage in my mind is not acceptable. It is a misrepresenatation 100%. At least with the Dynacorn bodies which is another story entirley, they do not try to pass them off as original cars and that is how it should be. I have a lot more repect for a guy who builds a clone and lets you know exactly what it is. That is a perfectly respectable practice of the hobby. If a guy wants to build a copo or Z28 out of his car that is his choice as long as no one is decieved. They are our cars to enjoy in any honest way that makes us happy, that is what the hobby as all about.

Thanks for the advice Mark. I probably do need a break for a while. I think I'm having Camaro withdrawls since my car is in CT and I'm in IL. Had to send it home for safe keeping untill I have a good enough garage to keep it in and work on it. I sure miss that seeing it everyday.

The only reason to buy a cowl tag is fraud, intentional or not.

Simple example: If someone wants to paint their car red because they like red better by all means paint it red, no law against that. But changing the tag means they want someone else to believe it was red from day 1, which is fraud regardless of intention. Which is immoral and probably illegal.

When someone convinces me otherwise I'll let you know.

Long live TC :beers:

Scott, don't take this the wrong way, because I don't agree with defrauding people, but how is this different than buying a CE engine, a properly date coded rearend, and so on and so forth. If you own a 68 like I do, the tag means absolutely nothing as far as engine type, so if I built the car with all original and correct date coded components, how would anyone ever know that the car wasn't real? Again I'm not saying that is what I'm doing, but if you can replace every other component on the car to make it look like it was orignally something it wasn't then how is the TT any different? I don't hear anyone complaining about people buying or selling those CE blocks!

But changing the tag means they want someone else to believe it was red from day 1, which is fraud regardless of intention. Which is immoral and probably illegal.

I would agree the questionable morality, although the trim tag isn't for car identification. It was used by the fisher body co to identify the body shells as they moved through their system. As such, I feel it would still be "legal" by the letter of the law.

To play devils advocate. My car was purchased without a trim tag. I know the original color, the original interior, and drivetrain information. What would be the problem in finding a matching original trim tag to affix to the car? There's no fraud in my intention, only to "restore" the car. As was stated before, the trim tag is almost worthless on a '68 anyway.
I have no desire to do this, since this car is far from stock, but it is within the realm of reason.