I have a 69 Z/28, with what I believe to be the original drivetrain. I do not have any paperwork with the car, only owner history. Do you think I would benefit enough having Mr. MacNeish inspect the car and write up a certification, or would I be smarter to not to spend that money and just sell the car as it is? I would be looking at probably $2k to have him inspect it, so do you think the market would support spending that to have it done or would I not really add enough value to the car. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

2K sounds like a tough one to bite.I guess if your getting 100K its not to bad,I think I would read his book and see what you get from it first and ask TC for input on the car.I think he lives up my way and I have a friend that knows him personaly that may have some input if you want I can call him to see if it would be worth your while.

I have his book, I have also put info on here before, and I am sure it is an authentic Z/28 with original trim tag. The only problem I have run into is that the car is an 02D built Norwood car, and the engine does not have the vin located next to oil filter, there is nothing there, but there is part of my vin number stamped on the bellhousing there at the oil filter boss area. Also, the DZ code is first week of March. I have talked to Mr. MacNeish before and he and others told me there are cars from Norwood built the last week of February that have first week of March engine codes as apparently there were no 03A cars built at Norwood, it goes from 02D to 03B. Stamping is authentic, but as you can see, I always get questions from people saying "You can't have the original motor if it was built after the trim tag date". I guess my thinking is, if I don't have the POP or build sheets, would a certification from Mr. MacNeish at least prove to most that it is a numbers matching engine and a real Z/28.

BTW, like I said I have had the trim tag and engine stamping looked at by KurtS and Jonesy and others before, who I consider as experts at spoting fakes, and they said they saw no problems with either. Also I have owner history back to the second owner and know that the engine has always been with the car and tag has not been removed.

It sounds like you have done your research.I don't know if his certification would sell the car.

I think with all you have said with whats out there I would put the price on it to what you want and what you believe and let the buyer decide.

If there car is real and original,His certs when selling the car will bring you way more than 2k. I have seen this many times with parts and cars, they absolutly bring more money. Especially with all the bogus crap flying around. JMO.:thumbsup:

Thanks for your input. I have put the car on here a couple of times, and also priced it at a few car shows. Usually, after I talk about the engine, I don't hear back from anybody because there are so many fakes out there. Maybe I am too honest, as I try to explain the whole story as I don't want any surprises or any question about my honesty about the car. I have been asking 55k-60k for the car, which I have seen some clones and CE motor cars bring. The car was rotisserie restored and is in excellent condition. I just wonder do enough people know who Jerry MacNeish is and if he authenticated the car, would the engine questions be less. Thanks again for your input, I appreciate it.

he will write a report and you can show anybody interested. It would definitly answer 90% of skeptics in my opinion.

Thanks for your input, I tend to agree with you. The question is, and I have had people ask me, is that alot of people don't really know who he is, and if they don't know of him, they don't really care about his opinion. IMHO, if I am gonna buy a z car, and I know he has seen it and certified it, I would feel very safe about it, the price would be my only concern at that point. Just my thoughts.

Rod, My car is a 02D car with no vin stamp on the block by oil filter. It would be interesting to know your vin # to see how close they are.

PM sent to you Larry. Thanks.

I think it is a good idea. I have a car that I am selling right now and the fact Jerry inspected it goes a long way . I would try to find some other first gen owners in your area and try to get a few of them together to share the cost of Jerry's cert. I beleive Jerry will cert up to four or five cars per fee.... but of course check with him

Why not offer the car for sale either with the certification prior to sale or at the buyers option with no certification and a negotiated price reduction. That way you only spend the money on it if the buyer values it. Right now it doesn't cost you anything, and if I'm the buyer I feel you're probably not BSing me if you're willing to have it certified.

If there is any question about authenticity, have it inspected. Then guarantee the car to be genuine, and offer to buy it back if proven by another industry recognized expert to not be genuine within say, two weeks.

Jerry has inspected several cars for me, and by far is one of the most down to earth people that I have met in the hobby/business.

Include his website and conact information in the ad, and he will answer any questions a potential buyer may have.

I had a nice 70 Z for sale that wa JM certed, the buyer was on the fence at my firm price, and lived too far away to come see the car. After calling Jerry, he called back and bought the car. He was happy with the car.

Rich

I would have him inspect it. that certification will make the selling process go a lot quicker and seperate you from the other guys out there with.. "Z-28s". Even if a buyer isn't aware of all the codes, tags, stamps, etc.. at least he will be impressed you are explaining it to him and have the best guy in the business backing you up. Also, he will get the certification at the close of the deal. He will know that will help him later. I had my car appraised (not by Jerry). The guy sent me a real nice report and rated things like interior, paint, authenticity, etc.. I know it will help later if I decide to sell.

The question is, and I have had people ask me, is that alot of people don't really know who he is, and if they don't know of him, they don't really care about his opinion.

Rod, if someone is REALLY interested in an authentic Z/28 enough to pay what you are asking for it and they claim to not know who Jerry is, then they have either been living on Mars for a while or they are all talk. I would ask them who they think the most qualified person is to verify it is what you say it is. If they have no answer, then it doesn't matter if it is Jerry certified or not. They are just wasting your time. There are lots of posers out there who want to pretend they can run with the big dogs. That's what watching too much 'Real Housewives of Orange County" will do to you.

Rod, if someone is REALLY interested in an authentic Z/28 enough to pay what you are asking for it and they claim to not know who Jerry is, then they have either been living on Mars for a while or they are all talk. I would ask them who they think the most qualified person is to verify it is what you say it is. If they have no answer, then it doesn't matter if it is Jerry certified or not. They are just wasting your time. There are lots of posers out there who want to pretend they can run with the big dogs. That's what watching too much 'Real Housewives of Orange County" will do to you.

Could not have said it:beers: better myself.

I agree with you both, that is how I feel, but you know, sometimes it helps to hear it from somebody else. I run into alot of guys here in the South that either really don't know him or pretend not to. My gut feeling on it is to have him write an appraisal, along with a certification. In my book, it is the next best thing to the POP or build sheet. Now whether it will add much value to my car, I guess that is just something I will have to risk. Thanks for all the input, it really helps.

Just a thought, why not try and sell it from a different angle? You can advertise it as it is and if someone is that serious and wants the car verified you can negotiate to split the cost of having Jerry certify it or say you pay my price I pay for Jerry's appraisal and if its everything I say it is its a done deal! Just athough if your on the fence that much...??

I have thought about that, but if I sell the car, my best chance I think will be thru an auction. Having the certification should help the car in that scenario, I believe. I have tried to sell the car to individuals previously, but had no "real" interest, only tire kickers and dealers trying to rip me off.

There are a ton of people out there who like first gen Camaro's, own first gen Camaro's and who do not know who Jerry is . So if that is the case tell them he "wrote the book" and give them his web site so they can acquaint themselves with Jerry. Being true to the hobby means part of the deal is to pass on good information so people who are either new, or just getting back into the hobby don't make mistakes. I think taking an attitude that if someone doesn't know who Jerry is means that they must not be serious or are "posers" is silly . I was out of the Camaro world for a long time after being in it for a long time... when I came back in I bought 4 first gen Camaro's in two weeks. I had no idea who Jerry was at the time... I guess I wasn't posing though was I ... treat people as you would like to be treated, bring them to the party don't alienate them . If they buy your car great, if not you can feel good you tried to help someone.

Rod, if someone is REALLY interested in an authentic Z/28 enough to pay what you are asking for it and they claim to not know who Jerry is, then they have either been living on Mars for a while or they are all talk. I would ask them who they think the most qualified person is to verify it is what you say it is. If they have no answer, then it doesn't matter if it is Jerry certified or not. They are just wasting your time. There are lots of posers out there who want to pretend they can run with the big dogs. That's what watching too much 'Real Housewives of Orange County" will do to you.

Could not have said it:beers: better myself.




So let me get this straight........ If someone doesn't know who Jerry Macneish is they are wasting your time and shouldn't be considered a serious buyer for a real 69 Z/28 :clonk: Thats got to be the dumbest statement I've heard so far on this sight :beers: Thats just plain ridiculous .......... and ignorant.

I personally know a few collectors who couldn't care less about the internet or Jerry's books and when and if his name ever came up wouldn't have a clue to who he is. Yet one owns no less than 4 original paint, survivor 69 Z/28's . One with less than 10k original miles. Funny thing is I bet not many people know these cars even exist. Another guy I race with every week has a 27k mile, original paint, survivor 69 L89 SS 396 Camaro. Up until HE WAS ASKED to participate in a Super Chevy shootout at RWP nobody even knew his car existed, and he had no clue who Jerry Macneish was either.

Jerry has done a great deal for our hobby and is a great resource for sure but there are plenty of serious collectors and buyers with plenty of cash who have never heard his name. It may be hard for all the internet guys to believe, but its true, Jerry Is not a house hold name for all Z/28 owners or potential buyers.



Sorry, that one just struck a nerve...........................




bob

I would have to disagree with everyone knowing J.M.

Not everybody knows who Jerry M. is. He has much knowledge and contributes a great deal. I have a friend who has owned, built, raced, restored and scrapped more musclecars of all makes in 35 years than most people would even dream of owning. My friend did not know who Jerry was until recently or even that CRG existed. This person possesses knowledge to which most ( I said most) will never even come close. And has managed to do so without the internet. Pity the fool who would try to pass off a substandard car on him.

[quote=Bgonz 69;1142127]So let me get this straight........ If someone doesn't know who Jerry Macneish is they are wasting your time and shouldn't be considered a serious buyer for a real 69 Z/28 :clonk: Thats got to be the dumbest statement I've heard so far on this sight :beers: Thats just plain ridiculous .......... and ignorant.

I personally know a few collectors who couldn't care less about the internet or Jerry's books and when and if his name ever came up wouldn't have a clue to who he is. Yet one owns no less than 4 original paint, survivor 69 Z/28's . One with less than 10k original miles. Funny thing is I bet not many people know these cars even exist. Another guy I race with every week has a 27k mile, original paint, survivor 69 L89 SS 396 Camaro. Up until HE WAS ASKED to participate in a Super Chevy shootout at RWP nobody even knew his car existed, and he had no clue who Jerry Macneish was either.

Jerry has done a great deal for our hobby and is a great resource for sure but there are plenty of serious collectors and buyers with plenty of cash who have never heard his name. It may be hard for all the internet guys to believe, but its true, Jerry Is not a house hold name for all Z/28 owners or potential buyers.



Sorry, that one just struck a nerve...........................

Why don't you loosen up and read the original post. The man has what he belives to be a Z28 with no paperwork and is inquiring if having Jerry verifying it would add value. That seems like a pretty straight forward question and the answer would most reasonably be yes because Jerry is a recognized expert and the car currently has nothing to document it.

Sorry guys, didn't want to start an argument here. I know there are many people who know alot about camaros who probably have never heard of JM. I always keep his book in my car so that at car shows I can show people who ask questions about stampings and such, or want to know general info, and alot of times, it is the first time they have heard of him. It is just my opinion, but I believe that having Mr. MacNeish verify my car or any camaro for that matter will add value and confidence in a particular car. How much I guess will depend on if the buyer knows who he is or cares what he thinks. I know alot about Z/28's, as I have researched them alot since before I bought my car, but if you are the seller, and with the current market flooded with clones and bogus cars, most people don't care what you say, they want paperwork or nothing. I know that is not always the case, but has been my experience so far. I guess I am just grasping for anything that will validate my car without me spouting off about it. Sure wish I could find the POP somewhere (don't we all!!!!).

Also, to me the big issue is that there are some issues with the #'s motor being dated AFTER the trim tag date if I read correctly. However, there are apparently reasons based on production and other cars that are also like this and original #'s cars.

With all of the fraud today, and just look at the ZL1 thread, this reason alone makes it worth getting certified. While I and many here think Jerry is top in his field, there are other people who could certifiy the car.

While not everybody knows Jerry, out of all of the people "In the Field", I think most would agree that Jerry is the most well known and respected.

Rich

Atta boy, Rich...I second that!

I have his book, I have also put info on here before, and I am sure it is an authentic Z/28 with original trim tag. The only problem I have run into is that the car is an 02D built Norwood car, and the engine does not have the vin located next to oil filter, there is nothing there, but there is part of my vin number stamped on the bellhousing there at the oil filter boss area. Also, the DZ code is first week of March. I have talked to Mr. MacNeish before and he and others told me there are cars from Norwood built the last week of February that have first week of March engine codes as apparently there were no 03A cars built at Norwood, it goes from 02D to 03B. Stamping is authentic, but as you can see, I always get questions from people saying "You can't have the original motor if it was built after the trim tag date". I guess my thinking is, if I don't have the POP or build sheets, would a certification from Mr. MacNeish at least prove to most that it is a numbers matching engine and a real Z/28. Maybe you could have Mr. MacNeish issue a letter based on your conversation on the date stamping, since this seems to be a issue you want clarified. Would not cost as much if he would do it.

This has been a very interesting thread the closest I have come to an original Z-28 was my brother owning one and I was ten yrs old.This is why I own my Camaro which is not close to original anything but its still a Camaro.If you can justify Jerry's cost I say go for it.I think its a win win which ever way you go.Good luck in your sale I just wish I had 60 to 80 to buy it.

Hey guys,

I've been on this site for a while (about 2 years) but have never posted. As someone who would like to buy a Z/28 one day I thought I'd chime in. When I bought my 69 RS I really didn't know a whole lot. I made some mistakes, but in the end I got a decent car.

I've spoken to Jerry about my interest in a Z/28 and actually looked at a few cars that he had inspected and certified. I've even talked to him about checking out a couple of cars that he had not seen for me. While I consider his knowledge valuable to me as a buyer, I wouldn't pay more for a car because it had his certification. Yes it would increase my comfort level with the car and put me at ease in trying to negotiate with the seller, but it wouldn't make me pay more.

So let me get this straight........ If someone doesn't know who Jerry Macneish is they are wasting your time and shouldn't be considered a serious buyer for a real 69 Z/28 :clonk: Thats got to be the dumbest statement I've heard so far on this sight :beers: Thats just plain ridiculous .......... and ignorant.

I personally know a few collectors who couldn't care less about the internet or Jerry's books and when and if his name ever came up wouldn't have a clue to who he is. Yet one owns no less than 4 original paint, survivor 69 Z/28's . One with less than 10k original miles. Funny thing is I bet not many people know these cars even exist. Another guy I race with every week has a 27k mile, original paint, survivor 69 L89 SS 396 Camaro. Up until HE WAS ASKED to participate in a Super Chevy shootout at RWP nobody even knew his car existed, and he had no clue who Jerry Macneish was either.

Jerry has done a great deal for our hobby and is a great resource for sure but there are plenty of serious collectors and buyers with plenty of cash who have never heard his name. It may be hard for all the internet guys to believe, but its true, Jerry Is not a house hold name for all Z/28 owners or potential buyers.



Sorry, that one just struck a nerve...........................




bob

Bob, put your nerve back where it belongs for a second. I didn't say everyone had to know who Jerry is in order to be considered a serious Camaro buyer, but Rod said he has been asking $55-60K for his car and no takers yet. How many of your Z/28-owning friends would plunk down that much money in today's marketplace without getting the vehicle verified? If they would get it verified, who would they go to? What reference material would they cite? If they wouldn't bother to have it verified, then that is the dummest thing I have heard, especially in this day and age.

I was away from the hobby for quite a few years myself, but when I got back into it I decided to educate myself about 1st generation Camaros. I didn't have to look too hard to find out that some of the so-called experts (many who are published authors) don't necessarily have all the facts right. The one name that kept coming up over and over again for being the go-to guy for accurate information on Camaros in general and Z/28's in particular was Jerry M.

I also said that if they couldn't offer an alternative resource or any resource for that matter, then in my opinion (which is all this is anyways), they can't be a serious buyer. Perhaps I should use the word 'educated' instead of 'serious'. Beyond that, yeah - I'll stick to my statement that there are a lot of posers and gas bags out there. We've all run into them and usually the higher the price tag on the item the more they huff and puff about it not being quite good enough for them.

Hey guys I am currently looking at buying a 69Z28 and I have told the seller that once he sends me all of the pictures and Vin numbers, that I will post them on this site and, if at that point if all the feedback is good I am going to contact Jerry for advice. These cars cost a lot of money. This car is a survivor and if it is real it is worth some good money, and if it is not legit it is a dime a dozen Camaro. therfore when buying Z28's or Copo's or any other rare muscle car, the buyer should do as much research as possible to avoid the 2 green car fiasco's. we work hard for our money, and I feel for anyone who buys what they think is a numbers matching car, only to find out after the fact that had they done the proper research first, they could have avoiding loosing money on an investment, in a market where these cars should appriciate, not devalue in a second upon discovering a fake.

Like CJ says it's all about the due dilligence. Too bad he didn't do his!

69Z28freak....If you post all the cars info be prepared to have it bought out from under you if it is a good car. There are many lurkers that are looking for opportunities and really could care less that they are stealing your find. I suggest either withholding some info or putting a legal and binding contract on the car pending a blessing from members of this site.

Bob, put your nerve back where it belongs for a second. .




I re-installed my nerve, and were up and running :thumbsup:

I agree, that any purchase of a Z/28 or any other hp model for that matter needs to be researched. I just misunderstood your statement.




bob

Go ahead and have it certified by Jerry. It's got to help with the selling of the car, even if it doesn't result in a higher price. I've had my 69 Z for 26 years, have read everything I can find on them, etc. With as much as I think I know, if I was looking to buy another one these days and spending 60K, I would have Jerry check it out first. His opinion is going to be objective since he has no stake in the sale; As a buyer, that would improve my comfort level immensely.

Jimmy V.

Go ahead and have it certified by Jerry. It's got to help with the selling of the car, even if it doesn't result in a higher price. I've had my 69 Z for 26 years, have read everything I can find on them, etc. With as much as I think I know, if I was looking to buy another one these days and spending 60K, I would have Jerry check it out first. His opinion is going to be objective since he has no stake in the sale; As a buyer, that would improve my comfort level immensely.

Jimmy V.


A few things to keep in mind regarding general Jerry McNeish certifications:

It does not clearly distinguish between draft reports and final reports;
It does not certify or look at sheetmetal dates or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not look at the partial VIN areas on firewalls of finished cars or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not document non critical dated components such as door panels, headrests, seat rails, clutch bracket, glass, smog, calipers, PS box, exhaust and the such which have dates on them or state this was or wasn't done.
It does not research or confirm a cars past condition and history or state this was or wasn't done; and
It does not research or confirm a cars past ownership or state this was or wasn't done.

In other words, professionals can still get "one" past him and buyers should still be responsible for doing research on any car they are considering.

I could think of alot better ways to spend $2000. Alot of things that verify a car can be answered on this site. Of course it is always best to look at the car in person. I am not sure if i would spend that kind of money to have him look at it and tell you what you already know. On obvious car, I dont think it is money well spent.

i think Hylton brings up alot of good points above. I think sometimes people think JM's inspections are like having original paperwork, when they are not.

There are a ton of people out there who like first gen Camaro's, own first gen Camaro's and who do not know who Jerry is . So if that is the case tell them he "wrote the book" and give them his web site so they can acquaint themselves with Jerry. Being true to the hobby means part of the deal is to pass on good information so people who are either new, or just getting back into the hobby don't make mistakes. I think taking an attitude that if someone doesn't know who Jerry is means that they must not be serious or are "posers" is silly . I was out of the Camaro world for a long time after being in it for a long time... when I came back in I bought 4 first gen Camaro's in two weeks. I had no idea who Jerry was at the time... I guess I wasn't posing though was I ... treat people as you would like to be treated, bring them to the party don't alienate them . If they buy your car great, if not you can feel good you tried to help someone.

Mr Chevy Thunder took the words right out of my mouth... *S*

A few things to keep in mind regarding general Jerry McNeish certifications:

It does not clearly distinguish between draft reports and final reports;
It does not certify or look at sheetmetal dates or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not look at the partial VIN areas on firewalls of finished cars or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not document non critical dated components such as door panels, headrests, seat rails, clutch bracket, glass, smog, calipers, PS box, exhaust and the such which have dates on them or state this was or wasn't done.
It does not research or confirm a cars past condition and history or state this was or wasn't done; and
It does not research or confirm a cars past ownership or state this was or wasn't done.

In other words, professionals can still get "one" past him and buyers should still be responsible for doing research on any car they are considering.


As someone who has been on certifications with Jerry, I can tell you first hand, this is partially true at best.

It really depends on the car. On the "project" cars that we did while he was down here, yes, he just checked the "major" components. On the "driver" quality cars, he checked both major and minor driveline components, interior and sheetmetal for "Originality". On the nut and bolt cars that we did, like Casey's Z28 or Mr. Lindsays 69 427 COPO, he checked everything.

Trust me, I was under these cars with him when he even checked the bolts that hold the leaf spring plates on. I was there when he flagged a seat as being repop recovered. I was there when he went over the history on the 69 COPO, as well as documented paperwork that the owner had. As far as hidden VINS, he checked the uppers but not the lower ones.

On my 1970 Z COPO, he called other Judges and 1970 experts, and even took pictures and emailed to them for concensus(sp) on some options.

Not saying that someone could not fool Jerry either, but that he does do more than what you alluded to above. Just depends on the car and level wanted.

In this particular car, the original DZ motor is dated "after" the trim tag. Apparently this is OK as there are other recorded Z's at this time. However, to a potential buyer this would be a "Major" red flag. It would probably go a long way to have some certified, professional expert to certify the DZ motor as original to this car. Weather that is Jerry or someone else (who is a certified and recognized expert).

I still say that is well worth the 2,000 or so that you will spend.

But, that is just my opinion.

Rich

I could think of alot better ways to spend $2000. Alot of things that verify a car can be answered on this site. Of course it is always best to look at the car in person. I am not sure if i would spend that kind of money to have him look at it and tell you what you already know. On obvious car, I dont think it is money well spent.

i think Hylton brings up alot of good points above. I think sometimes people think JM's inspections are like having original paperwork, when they are not.

In my case it was money well spent to have Jerry certify my car. It is an original JL8 car that had never been disassembled. If I would have taken the car apart prior to having Jerry's report, the heritage of the car would have always been in question. With Jerry's report saying, amoung other things, "the rear axle is unmolested and original to the car" allowed me to take the car apart and begin the restoration.

I guess my point would be that circumstances, and each of our cars, are different. I don't think every car requires Jerry's services. Personally, I think certiying a car that has been taken apart and put back together again is a crap shoot. Only ORIGINAL documentation should qualify a restored car for certification by anybody. And, unfortunately these days, you have to be an expert in determining a fake build sheet from an original, fake window stickers and forged POP's. Not to mention the real car from the clone, tribute or what ever else you want to call it.

As someone who has been on certifications with Jerry, I can tell you first hand, this is partially true at best.

It really depends on the car. On the "project" cars that we did while he was down here, yes, he just checked the "major" components. On the "driver" quality cars, he checked both major and minor driveline components, interior and sheetmetal for "Originality". On the nut and bolt cars that we did, like Casey's Z28 or Mr. Lindsays 69 427 COPO, he checked everything.

Trust me, I was under these cars with him when he even checked the bolts that hold the leaf spring plates on. I was there when he flagged a seat as being repop recovered. I was there when he went over the history on the 69 COPO, as well as documented paperwork that the owner had. As far as hidden VINS, he checked the uppers but not the lower ones.

On my 1970 Z COPO, he called other Judges and 1970 experts, and even took pictures and emailed to them for concensus(sp) on some options.

Not saying that someone could not fool Jerry either, but that he does do more than what you alluded to above. Just depends on the car and level wanted.

In this particular car, the original DZ motor is dated "after" the trim tag. Apparently this is OK as there are other recorded Z's at this time. However, to a potential buyer this would be a "Major" red flag. It would probably go a long way to have some certified, professional expert to certify the DZ motor as original to this car. Weather that is Jerry or someone else (who is a certified and recognized expert).

I still say that is well worth the 2,000 or so that you will spend.

But, that is just my opinion.

Rich

That's just it, it's inconsistent. There is no such thing as a Level A to Level D evaluation. The certification is whatever happens to be requested. CHP certification would be much more clearer and credible if Jerry had a bronze, silver, gold and platinum level certification program which were specifically outlined as to what each level entails and means.

I respect your opinion Rich because I know you are one of the guys who are in this hobby for the right reasons but my points were far from being partially true at best.

Rod, if someone is REALLY interested in an authentic Z/28 enough to pay what you are asking for it and they claim to not know who Jerry is, then they have either been living on Mars for a while or they are all talk. I would ask them who they think the most qualified person is to verify it is what you say it is. If they have no answer, then it doesn't matter if it is Jerry certified or not. They are just wasting your time. There are lots of posers out there who want to pretend they can run with the big dogs. That's what watching too much 'Real Housewives of Orange County" will do to you.


how many big dogs here??? Not many I bet

Thanks for all the opinions, it has really been helpful and interesting discussion. I really don't know what I am gonna do, I would love to have the car looked at but like someone earlier stated, I know it is a real Z/28 and anyone who knows these cars can inspect it and find that out for themselves, so I don't know if spending the money is worth it. As far as the engine is concerned, I have posted the info from it a couple of times along with some pics and I feel very confident it is the original engine, but even so, when most people see that the engine stamp date is later than the trim tag date, they go by the rule that the engine could not possibly be original then, even though it has been shown before that this can occur within one week of the tag date, which my car is, especially with late February cars. I may call JM and just talk with him again about the car as it has been several years since we spoke and then make a decision. Not to start another topic, but am I really that far off on the price when I believe a real, very nicely restored Z/28 is worth $50-$60k?? Maybe that is my problem with getting folks to actually come and look at the car to make a decision about it. Any opinions on market value?? Thanks again.

That's just it, it's inconsistent. There is no such thing as a Level A to Level D evaluation. The certification is whatever happens to be requested. CHP certification would be much more clearer and credible if Jerry had a bronze, silver, gold and platinum level certification program which were specifically outlined as to what each level entails and means.

I respect your opinion Rich because I know you are one of the guys who are in this hobby for the right reasons but my points were far from being partially true at best.

I agree, that would be a much better way. No offense meant, sometimes what I write and what I am thinking come out different. :)

It should have read something like "I agree with some of the above, but..." sort of thing.

Setting the option level out (and pricing accordingly) would be a great idea. I know Jerry reads these forums sometimes, but I'll make it a point to mention this (not that I talk to him that often, but I am trying to get a car certified soon anyway).

Rich

Am I wrong, or didn't Jerry "certify" the green RS Z?

Thanks for all the opinions, it has really been helpful and interesting discussion. I really don't know what I am gonna do, I would love to have the car looked at but like someone earlier stated, I know it is a real Z/28 and anyone who knows these cars can inspect it and find that out for themselves, so I don't know if spending the money is worth it. As far as the engine is concerned, I have posted the info from it a couple of times along with some pics and I feel very confident it is the original engine, but even so, when most people see that the engine stamp date is later than the trim tag date, they go by the rule that the engine could not possibly be original then, even though it has been shown before that this can occur within one week of the tag date, which my car is, especially with late February cars. I may call JM and just talk with him again about the car as it has been several years since we spoke and then make a decision. Not to start another topic, but am I really that far off on the price when I believe a real, very nicely restored Z/28 is worth $50-$60k?? Maybe that is my problem with getting folks to actually come and look at the car to make a decision about it. Any opinions on market value?? Thanks again.


There are at least two #2-#3 nice Major #'s match Z's right now that cannot pull $55,000.00. One of which is actually a 10-10 black Z.

Rough market right now. If you can hang on to it till spring/summer, I bet prices will go back up some, but not to the 75+ they were bringing.

Rich

Am I wrong, or didn't Jerry "certify" the green RS Z?


Yes and that report (which is on Camaros.org) proves all the previous points I made.

I don't for a minute dispute Jerry's abilities, knowledge or the contribution he has made to our hobby. He could tell you if the air in a car's tires was factory or not. We've just come to a point in the hobby where documentation must be clearly worded so that mis-interpretations are eliminated.

Do these certifications contain a disclaimer absolving JM from financial responsibility should he make a mistake and certify a fake car or part?

There are at least two #2-#3 nice Major #'s match Z's right now that cannot pull $55,000.00. One of which is actually a 10-10 black Z.

Rough market right now. If you can hang on to it till spring/summer, I bet prices will go back up some, but not to the 75+ they were bringing.

Rich

As far as I know, nobody has confirmed that the 10-10 car is #'s matching. I have never seen a good pic of engine pad. It was requested but never shown.

engine does not have the vin located next to oil filter, there is nothing there, but there is part of my vin number stamped on the bellhousing there at the oil filter boss area.

If I'm reading this properly the VIN is stamped on the aluminum bellhousing. If the VIN Deriative is not stamped on the motor, how can anyone prove its original to the car?

As far as I know, nobody has confirmed that the 10-10 car is #'s matching. I have never seen a good pic of engine pad. It was requested but never shown.


OK, Just going by the ad, and several members of that site that were saying what a deal it was/is.

Point is, there are several Z's on the market right now in the 50's and not many moving at that price.


Rich

Then, there is the exception:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/01/25/automobiles/collectibles/0125-auction_10.html

It sold for $172,000 in '07.

Key word there is "07". In 2007, prices were still at their peak.

And I am not saying that these uber Z's are not worth it (I know you can't restore some of them for 55K), just that people (in general) are not wanting to spend big bucks on cars right now.

Of course, there are some who are, just speaking in generalities.

It also seems as if there are less nice/rare cars on the market. Some people who may have one for sale seem to be waiting for better days.

Rich

does any one know jerry macneish's website or phone number, i think he is stll in maryland, i have done camaro gauge repair for him in the past, but have lost contact when i moved 3 years ago, please email me an info at tachman@bellsouth.net
greatly appreciated
tachman

http://www.z28camaro.com/

OK, Just going by the ad, and several members of that site that were saying what a deal it was/is.

Point is, there are several Z's on the market right now in the 50's and not many moving at that price.


Rich


that is not true.. a real deal car was on sYc for 55K and it sold immediatley

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB3&Number=382084&page=0&fpart=all

Do these certifications contain a disclaimer absolving JM from financial responsibility should he make a mistake and certify a fake car or part?


Hi Mark, Rich should be able to answer that one because a few of his cars have been JM certified but I can say for certain that some McNeish certification documents contain no such disclaimer. Certainly, the content and level of detail of what the inspection included is not identified in some past reports.

that is not true.. a real deal car was on sYc for 55K and it sold immediatley

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB3&Number=382084&page=0&fpart=all

Again. Not saying NO cars are selling, just that FEW cars are selling. All it takes is one guy that wants a car because of color etc and its sold.

What do you think that car would have sold for a year ago? Probably a lot more than 55k!

Just that there are several "real" Z's on the market in the 50's that are not selling. Some better than others.

:)

Rich

Hi Mark, Rich should be able to answer that one because a few of his cars have been JM certified but I can say for certain that some McNeish certification documents contain no such disclaimer. Certainly, the content and level of detail of what the inspection included is not identified in some past reports.


None that I remember. I'll look tonight and let you know, but I don't think so.

Rich

If I'm reading this properly the VIN is stamped on the aluminum bellhousing. If the VIN Deriative is not stamped on the motor, how can anyone prove its original to the car?
Here are a couple of pics, my VIN is 9N611861, this is what is stamped on the bellhousing just to the right of the oil filter boss area on the engine. The bellhousing was in the car when I bought it but the engine was not, I rebuilt the engine, installed the bellhousing and found these numbers. If this is not the VIN, then what are these numbers for??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/hotrodz28/DSC00451.jpg

Here are a couple of pics, my VIN is 9N611861, this is what is stamped on the bellhousing just to the right of the oil filter boss area on the engine. The bellhousing was in the car when I bought it but the engine was not, I rebuilt the engine, installed the bellhousing and found these numbers. If this is not the VIN, then what are these numbers for??
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/hotrodz28/DSC00451.jpg
Another pic.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v607/hotrodz28/DSC00449.jpg

Cool pic Rod. Looks like you have a numbers matching belhousing! That might explain why my DZ block has no VIN number on it.

i would be intereted in sharing the cost to have Jerry look at my 69 SS Camaro if there are others in need of the same!!

Cool pic Rod. Looks like you have a numbers matching belhousing! That might explain why my DZ block has no VIN number on it.
That is what I am thinking, that as with alot of other things that were done at the factory, when these things came down the assembly line, the bellhousing was already attached to the engine and sometimes, they just missed the area that was supposed to be stamped, otherwise all the engines should have them. I know that this is not a restamp job, the fonts are correct and like I said, the bellhousing is original to the car but was in the car attached to a 350 when I bought it, the 302 had not been in the car since the early 70's. Nobody has been able to tell me what these numbers should be for if it is not the VIN, and I think it is too much of a coincidence that all the numbers there are in my VIN, the chances of some other factory stamping being here and containing some of the same numbers as the partial VIN would be astronomical. I would be interested to see if anybody else whose engine does not have a partial VIN has any numbers on the bellhousing in this area, but have not found anybody yet.

Hey Guys,

I want to thank everyone on this site for your support.

While I know there will always be critics about me or my business when inspecting a car, building an engine, restoring a component or setting up a rear axle, I do my best to do all jobs to the best of my ability. Camaro inspection trips are not $2000.00. I have posted before that I charge $500 a day plus expenses and if there are several cars in the area where I am going, I will try to piggy back the job to save everyone money. A one day road trip has a flat fee of $650.00, and that includes the three to four page written report that I write on every car. I should also state that I have not raised my rates in five years. Recently, I inspected a car for Allan Jackson, the country music singer. I did not charge him anymore money than I would for the middle class blue collar enthusiast.

I am also state licensed, nationally certified and have been used as an expert witness in many court cases. There are others doing what I do and have no credentials other than being self proclaimed. My resume and "body of work" speaks for itself and is listed on the last page of every report that I write.

In a specialized business such as mine, I have had to make changes to my business polices because of the greed in our hobby. I'm not going to rehash the RS rally green car that I inspected here. I posted the situation and my position on these boards for all to read before. There will be no more rough drafts going out to aid someone under the gun on having a car judged for the Camaro Nationals.

Another topic is how much data do you take on a car? If a car is totally restored or a low mileage survivor, I cannot ask someone to dismantle their car to write down every single date code on the car. That is unrealistic......and most people will not do that. I might do it if asked, but again that's me because I'm a hands on guy and it's no different for me than going to the tear down barn to remove a cylinder head for an NHRA win!

As to sheet metal, most of these cars have had sheet metal replaced within the first five years of their life. My red 1968 Z28 had new quarters when the car was three years old. In the case if a survivor, I will take time to inspect sheet metal and date codes and spot welds.

I've worked on these cars since day one, raced them in NHRA's Stock Eliminator and restored them for concours judging. If anyone ever calls and has a question, I call everyone back. Everyone. It may take some time but I work very hard to treat everyone the same way I would want to be treated. I try to answer all of my e-mails in a timely fashion too. I was in a Camaro jury trial two weeks ago and then on to the Buddy Holly Winter Dance Party Tribute week for the rest of the week. When I got home, I had 271 e-mails, 50+ phone messages and a pile of snail mail. I am working seven days a week and 12 hour days to try and keep up with all who need my services or questions answered since I got back last Tuesday night.

I have no hidden agendas and I'm in the business because I have loved the cars since they were new and still love them today. If anyone needs to contact me, my phone number is on my web site. I'm at the Camaro Nationals every year and have been there since the early 1990s. I'll be glad to help anyone who needs a second opinion or advise in the hobby which we all share.

Thanks,

Jerry

Hey Guys,

I want to thank everyone on this site for your support.

While I know there will always be critics about me or my business when inspecting a car, building an engine, restoring a component or setting up a rear axle, I do my best to do all jobs to the best of my ability. Camaro inspection trips are not $2000.00. I have posted before that I charge $500 a day plus expenses and if there are several cars in the area where I am going, I will try to piggy back the job to save everyone money. A one day road trip has a flat fee of $650.00, and that includes the three to four page written report that I write on every car. I should also state that I have not raised my rates in five years. Recently, I inspected a car for Allan Jackson, the country music singer. I did not charge him anymore money than I would for the middle class blue collar enthusiast.

I am also state licensed, nationally certified and have been used as an expert witness in many court cases. There are others doing what I do and have no credentials other than being self proclaimed. My resume and "body of work" speaks for itself and is listed on the last page of every report that I write.

In a specialized business such as mine, I have had to make changes to my business polices because of the greed in our hobby. I'm not going to rehash the RS rally green car that I inspected here. I posted the situation and my position on these boards for all to read before. There will be no more rough drafts going out to aid someone under the gun on having a car judged for the Camaro Nationals.

Another topic is how much data do you take on a car? If a car is totally restored or a low mileage survivor, I cannot ask someone to dismantle their car to write down every single date code on the car. That is unrealistic......and most people will not do that. I might do it if asked, but again that's me because I'm a hands on guy and it's no different for me than going to the tear down barn to remove a cylinder head for an NHRA win!

As to sheet metal, most of these cars have had sheet metal replaced within the first five years of their life. My red 1968 Z28 had new quarters when the car was three years old. In the case if a survivor, I will take time to inspect sheet metal and date codes and spot welds.

I've worked on these cars since day one, raced them in NHRA's Stock Eliminator and restored them for concours judging. If anyone ever calls and has a question, I call everyone back. Everyone. It may take some time but I work very hard to treat everyone the same way I would want to be treated. I try to answer all of my e-mails in a timely fashion too. I was in a Camaro jury trial two weeks ago and then on to the Buddy Holly Winter Dance Party Tribute week for the rest of the week. When I got home, I had 271 e-mails, 50+ phone messages and a pile of snail mail. I am working seven days a week and 12 hour days to try and keep up with all who need my services or questions answered since I got back last Tuesday night.

I have no hidden agendas and I'm in the business because I have loved the cars since they were new and still love them today. If anyone needs to contact me, my phone number is on my web site. I'm at the Camaro Nationals every year and have been there since the early 1990s. I'll be glad to help anyone who needs a second opinion or advise in the hobby which we all share.

Thanks,

Jerry

Thanks for posting Jerry. Your paragraphs here acknowledge that there are unethical practices going on in the hobby. You have also acknowledged that your work clearly has influence when someone is looking at a car.

What are you doing to ensure that someone looking at one of your reports, clearly understands the level of the inspection you performed on a given car? Please speak to the points I have identified below so that we understand what a JM Certificate actually means. Your work is extremely important to this hobby and appreciated by us all. We want to help you eliminate any misunderstandings.

Thanks again!


A few things to keep in mind regarding general Jerry McNeish certifications:

It does not clearly distinguish between draft reports and final reports;
It does not certify or look at sheetmetal dates or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not look at the partial VIN areas on firewalls of finished cars or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not document non critical dated components such as door panels, headrests, seat rails, clutch bracket, glass, smog, calipers, PS box, exhaust and the such which have dates on them or state this was or wasn't done.
It does not research or confirm a cars past condition and history or state this was or wasn't done; and
It does not research or confirm a cars past ownership or state this was or wasn't done.

In other words, professionals can still get "one" past him and buyers should still be responsible for doing research on any car they are considering.

Hey Jerry, nice to see you posting here. I originally started this thread. My figure for $2000 was based on your fee of $500 per day plus expenses, which to make a trip to Alabama from Maryland, I estimated around $2000. I never intended it to appear that $2000 was what was quoted to me from you or anybody at your shop, and I am sorry if that seemed to be the case. I have bought parts from you before and talked with you on the phone and have always been treated absolutely great. I value your opinion as I consider you the most educated Z/28 person out there. My idea in starting the thread, as I am sure you could see, was to decide if spending whatever amount of money it turned out to be would benefit my car, as I have no factory documentation with it. I am still considering doing that. I think most people who know of your reputation, and have actually had dealings with you, know the kind of guy you are. I for one appreciate all you do for our hobby, and again I apologize if my estimate of your services appeared skewed, that was not my intention at all. Thanks again for all you do, I would not hesitate to call you or contact you with any questions I have, all of our dealings have been great.

Hylton,

I'll try and answer your questions. I'm down to under 100 e-mails to answer now.

The biggest problem with my reports are many who have cars done are flipping the cars and do not post the whole report (all three or four pages) on the Internet with all of the issues and comments that I make. Many just post the Cert of Auth.

I did a '68 Z28 about two years ago in Aug. In Feb the following year that same car had five owners. See my point?

There are no more draft reports to give quick aid in finishing a car. Final copies are sent out now and that's it. The only thing that would change is if the selling dealership and or paperwork would surface.

Sheet metal inspection is not a big issue in what I do unless the car is represented as a survivor car. I do flag the correct deck lids. Now, if the firewall has been sectioned or the caulking is missing, I will investigate more in that area. I also look at all hidden vins in the cowl area but again if a car is restored and there is a lot of paint there, it's hard to know for sure. Last year, I was at a dealer in GA and looked for the hidden vin on an SS Camaro and the whole section of the cowl was cut out and removed from the car. I told the client not to buy this car.

When a car is apart, I do take photos of the hidden vins and verify the body when possible. I have a very large photo data base and every car that I inspect has a file.

I do flag component data on most of the cars that I do. I am not going to remove door panels but try to document everything that I can within reason.

I also ask the client where the car was purchased and report any data given to me in the report.

Hope this helps,

Jerry

Thanks for commenting Jerry. One huge problem is when people (as you have eluded to) are either showing draft reports as the final one or not disclosing all the information (pages) to a report.

Have you considered an inspection level field on the first page? For example, a bronze level may only include checking out the numbers on drivetrain and VIN/Trim tag information only. A platinum level report would be equal to a forensic investigation and would be considered the ultimate certification (don't have to tell you what that would entail except to say you'ld be crazy to do it for $500.00! Everything else would be somewhere in between.

By identifying the level of inspection with a forwarding document clearly defining what each level means, it would stop people from misunderstanding what actually done during the certification process. It would also make it much more difficult for unethical people to BS there way past the report.

If I saw a recent report and on the front page it said Inspection Level: Platinum, I know I won't have to look over the car very long. Too many buyers are assuming that all cars you look at get the same level of inspection. I know this is not possible simply because of the 100's of different states a car can be in when you are asked to go look at it. Yes they should get their heads around the fact that these cars didn't always look the way they do with the fresh paint but it's hard to get people to think logically when they have a woody looking at a car they want.

Thanks for doing what you do and keep at her - we really need you more then ever! :beers:

Hylton

Here is a small part of a report and the anal things that are written up when I do an on-site inspecton. Always on page two.

Jerry

● replacement polished valve covers, should have satin finish
● engine lift hooks are incorrect
● incorrect round valve cover grommets
● spark plug wire shields are missing from engine, not having them can burn plug wires
● incorrect smog check valves, should have “992” valves
● serious core support damage, bent and distorted where attached to the hood latch assembly
● reproduction radiator, not correct for Z28
● service replacement voltage regulator and horn relay
● right side wire loom bracket is installed in the wrong bolt hole, should be mounted in second hole from back
● left side lower valve cover wire holders are not correct
● incorrect oil cap
● many fastener and bolt issues in the engine bay
● service replacement ZL-2 air cleaner, groove in base bottom
● water pump pulley is incorrect big block pulley, not the larger “456” deep groove pulley for Z28
● upper alternator bracket is 1970s replacement with extra holes
● windshield cowl screws are incorrect and incorrectly plated, should be silver zinc or cad
● painted hood latch, hinges, thermostat housing and coil bracket
● intake manifold has clear coated paint on surface
● incorrect alternator, should be 1100837, plating & pulley size also incorrect, should be silver cadium w/deep groove pulley
● painted clutch cross shaft, should be dark gray phosphate in finish
● car should have side terminal battery and cables, that started in late April 1969, this car is a mid May car
● reproduction exhaust manifolds, date E288
● incorrect horns and mounting brackets on horns are bent and damaged
● incorrect service replacement smog pump, totally different from an original 1969 Z28 smog pump
● diverter valve mounting is incorrect and off to one side
● brake booster hose bracket is missing from valve cover bolt hole
● incorrect bolts in radiator shroud and hose clamp on alternator bracket
● seats are bolted on top of carpet, not correct
● incorrect hood pad clips, should have four holes
● wire gutter screws are incorrect, heads are too small
● all window cranks are incorrect reproductions
● bucket seat backs have a gap between the seat bottom and the seat back, something is not correct here
● right side mirror added to car, never available during production year
● radial tires are not correct for Z28
● cogged fan belt is not correct
● incorrect fan clutch and fan blade
● remove rubber insulator inserts from fuel tank straps
● incorrect starter motor
● floor plugs should be plated silver in color
● bolt in ball joints, should be riveted in place
● u-bolts and nuts are incorrect and too long on rear axle
● plating on parking brake cable connectors is incorrect, should be silver cadium
● five leaf rear springs, not correct for Z28, should have four leafs
● fuel tank straps should be painted semi gloss black
● severe sub frame damage on front side under engine frame mounts, bent and wrinkled
● sway bar link kits and mounting bolts are incorrect and plated wrong
● rear parking brake cable holders should be painted semi gloss black
● reverse lock out mechanism missing from sub frame
● both FW and service replacement YH rally wheels on car
● car sits too high in the front end, incorrect coil springs
● carburetor dated too early for car, 873, 1968, July, third week
● service replacement balancer

Here is a small part of a report and the anal things that are written up when I do an on-site inspecton. Always on page two.

Jerry

● replacement polished valve covers, should have satin finish
● engine lift hooks are incorrect
● incorrect round valve cover grommets
● spark plug wire shields are missing from engine, not having them can burn plug wires
● incorrect smog check valves, should have “992” valves
● serious core support damage, bent and distorted where attached to the hood latch assembly
● reproduction radiator, not correct for Z28
● service replacement voltage regulator and horn relay
● right side wire loom bracket is installed in the wrong bolt hole, should be mounted in second hole from back
● left side lower valve cover wire holders are not correct
● incorrect oil cap
● many fastener and bolt issues in the engine bay
● service replacement ZL-2 air cleaner, groove in base bottom
● water pump pulley is incorrect big block pulley, not the larger “456” deep groove pulley for Z28
● upper alternator bracket is 1970s replacement with extra holes
● windshield cowl screws are incorrect and incorrectly plated, should be silver zinc or cad
● painted hood latch, hinges, thermostat housing and coil bracket
● intake manifold has clear coated paint on surface
● incorrect alternator, should be 1100837, plating & pulley size also incorrect, should be silver cadium w/deep groove pulley
● painted clutch cross shaft, should be dark gray phosphate in finish
● car should have side terminal battery and cables, that started in late April 1969, this car is a mid May car
● reproduction exhaust manifolds, date E288
● incorrect horns and mounting brackets on horns are bent and damaged
● incorrect service replacement smog pump, totally different from an original 1969 Z28 smog pump
● diverter valve mounting is incorrect and off to one side
● brake booster hose bracket is missing from valve cover bolt hole
● incorrect bolts in radiator shroud and hose clamp on alternator bracket
● seats are bolted on top of carpet, not correct
● incorrect hood pad clips, should have four holes
● wire gutter screws are incorrect, heads are too small
● all window cranks are incorrect reproductions
● bucket seat backs have a gap between the seat bottom and the seat back, something is not correct here
● right side mirror added to car, never available during production year
● radial tires are not correct for Z28
● cogged fan belt is not correct
● incorrect fan clutch and fan blade
● remove rubber insulator inserts from fuel tank straps
● incorrect starter motor
● floor plugs should be plated silver in color
● bolt in ball joints, should be riveted in place
● u-bolts and nuts are incorrect and too long on rear axle
● plating on parking brake cable connectors is incorrect, should be silver cadium
● five leaf rear springs, not correct for Z28, should have four leafs
● fuel tank straps should be painted semi gloss black
● severe sub frame damage on front side under engine frame mounts, bent and wrinkled
● sway bar link kits and mounting bolts are incorrect and plated wrong
● rear parking brake cable holders should be painted semi gloss black
● reverse lock out mechanism missing from sub frame
● both FW and service replacement YH rally wheels on car
● car sits too high in the front end, incorrect coil springs
● carburetor dated too early for car, 873, 1968, July, third week
● service replacement balancer


This speaks to the correctness of a car but I am more concerned about the validity of a car. Since most restorations of expensive Camaros strip the car down to it's shell, or barn finds are generally undisturbed (drivetrain and bolt-ons excluded), what is identified in the report to the buyer that he truly is getting the real thing?

This information is listed on the first page of the report and in a final summary on the last page. I use the thousands of photos in my data base to confirm stampings, trim tags and other issues on any given car. Each report is a little different as each Camaro that I inspect might have a different agenda in the way it's listed for sale.

Jerry

Jerry,
Thought you would like to know that your books must be collectors items. They were on ebay, and sold for more than new ones. Look for my check in the mail.

This speaks to the correctness of a car but I am more concerned about the validity of a car. Since most restorations of expensive Camaros strip the car down to it's shell, or barn finds are generally undisturbed (drivetrain and bolt-ons excluded), what is identified in the report to the buyer that he truly is getting the real thing?

It seems to me that everything you are proposing is designed to make it easier for a potential buyer to be lax in doing their due diligence before making a purchase. It sounds like Jerry is maintaining a pretty thorough data base on all the cars he inspects. If a seller is touting a car as being 'JM certified', then all potential buyers could/should contact Jerry to find out from the original source the level of inspection that was done and any issues that were noted. Kinda like a 'Car Fax' report, only better. If there is a nominal fee charged for this information, so be it. Seems like cheap insurance to me.

40 years after they started putting warning labels on cigarette packs that smoking causes cancer there are still people who claim they didn't know. Some people will never take the time to educate themselves before making a purchase, no matter how easy you make it for them. I vote that it's time to stop telling the man how to run his business. Anyone who thinks they can do it better, have at it.

It seems to me that everything you are proposing is designed to make it easier for a potential buyer to be lax in doing their due diligence before making a purchase. It sounds like Jerry is maintaining a pretty thorough data base on all the cars he inspects. If a seller is touting a car as being 'JM certified', then all potential buyers could/should contact Jerry to find out from the original source the level of inspection that was done and any issues that were noted. Kinda like a 'Car Fax' report, only better. If there is a nominal fee charged for this information, so be it. Seems like cheap insurance to me. I vote that it's time to stop telling the man how to run his business. Anyone who thinks they can do it better, have at it.

It's not about telling anyone how to do anything Mark - it's about working together as a group of passionate enthusiasts to stop the fraud that is going on out there.

You seem to be assuming that Jerry's database has the complete info on every car he has inspected. If someone called Jerry to inquire about ANY car he inspected was at one time rebodied, Jerry's database would be able to tell the person? Is that correct?

Truth is, as Jerry has indicated above, he is asked to perform different degrees of inspections and on cars in different states of originality and/or completion. This is not being realized with the general buying public. What is happening is that buyers are taking the CHP certifications as a level of assurance which does not require more due diligence.

Buyers are assuming that the car is authentic and genuine. Obviously that is not correct and you yourself say that buyers should spend more time doing research on a car even though the car has CHP docs. Let me ask you this Mark - what other research would you do on a car that Jerry has certified if you were interested in purchasing it?

I’m far from being a Camaro expert and don’t claim to be…right now I’m still a wannabe. But if I had to go to anyone for information, opinions, appraisals, it would be Jerry MacNeish hands down. Whether or not you agree with everything he says, he’s still the foremost expert on classic Camaros. I’ve had Jerry come to my home with some other folks to appraise my cars, I’ve had him restore some parts for me, I’ve asked him for opinions on numerous issues and he has always been there to help. Jerry has been great for this crazy Camaro hobby we all share and I’m taking this opportunity to thank him.

As far as Jerry giving gold, silver, or platinum ratings, that’s really not his intent in giving an appraisal. You may not like or agree with the issues he finds; his job is to tell you everything you need to do to bring your car as close to perfect as possible--everything. And it’s not easy---these cars are over 40 years old and some have had major changes and minor changes. The report Jerry will give you is as extensive as it can be on visual inspection. Anything further would require tearing the entire car apart (which I doubt anyone would want to do.) If you went to the Camaro Nationals you’d have a team of judges who would probably find the same issues. But no matter who does the appraisal/inspection, it’s still up to you, the buyer, to do your homework and your own investigation before you “pull the trigger.” The car may even have a certification by Jerry MacNeish, but if it’s been a few years, we all know that some of the original parts may have “mysteriously” disappeared with imposters in their place. Where there’s money to be made, corruption follows! That’s when it’s up to you to learn as much as you can or even contact Jerry for another inspection. If you’re spending tens of thousands of dollars, it’s a small price to pay to have him certify your investment. I can’t think of anyone else but Jerry that I would trust before I’d spend that kind of money, and I’m glad to know I can depend on him for his expertise.

I’m far from being a Camaro expert and don’t claim to be…right now I’m still a wannabe. But if I had to go to anyone for information, opinions, appraisals, it would be Jerry MacNeish hands down. Whether or not you agree with everything he says, he’s still the foremost expert on classic Camaros. I’ve had Jerry come to my home with some other folks to appraise my cars, I’ve had him restore some parts for me, I’ve asked him for opinions on numerous issues and he has always been there to help. Jerry has been great for this crazy Camaro hobby we all share and I’m taking this opportunity to thank him.

As far as Jerry giving gold, silver, or platinum ratings, that’s really not his intent in giving an appraisal. You may not like or agree with the issues he finds; his job is to tell you everything you need to do to bring your car as close to perfect as possible--everything. And it’s not easy---these cars are over 40 years old and some have had major changes and minor changes. The report Jerry will give you is as extensive as it can be on visual inspection. Anything further would require tearing the entire car apart (which I doubt anyone would want to do.) If you went to the Camaro Nationals you’d have a team of judges who would probably find the same issues. But no matter who does the appraisal/inspection, it’s still up to you, the buyer, to do your homework and your own investigation before you “pull the trigger.” The car may even have a certification by Jerry MacNeish, but if it’s been a few years, we all know that some of the original parts may have “mysteriously” disappeared with imposters in their place. Where there’s money to be made, corruption follows! That’s when it’s up to you to learn as much as you can or even contact Jerry for another inspection. If you’re spending tens of thousands of dollars, it’s a small price to pay to have him certify your investment. I can’t think of anyone else but Jerry that I would trust before I’d spend that kind of money, and I’m glad to know I can depend on him for his expertise.

I agree with everything you say here. So does that mean that a Jerry certification does mean that the car is not a rebody? If that is so, then that is what we have to educate buyers about to let them know that a Jerry certification is about correctness and not legitimacy or validaty of a car.

I agree....to a point. It's so important to have a buildsheet or pop plate or Canadian documentation if it's a Canadian car. But if not, you need someone who has seen hundreds, thousands, to lessen your chances of buying anything other than a true Z-28. We all know the fakes are looking more and more authentic, so we need all the help we can get to protect our investment. Remember the ZL-1 on Barrett-Jackson that sold for $290,000? Ron Pratt sat and read in the paper without bidding or even looking up. Maybe he was in touch with JM :) Just speculating. What I'm trying to say to anyone wanting to buy a Z is to get a professional's advice...caveat emptor.

It's not about telling anyone how to do anything Mark No? I guess I misinterpreted the suggestions for what should go in his reports and what pages certain information should appear on.

You seem to be assuming that Jerry's database has the complete info on every car he has inspected. I'm not assuming anything - I'm just going on the information he posted earlier in this thread. It looked like a pretty comprehensive hunk of data to me. No one can know everything there is to know about a given car unless they personally drove it off the assembly line and stayed with it 24/7 for the last 40 or so years. Obviously, he can only comment on the evidence that is before him at the time of the inspection.

If someone called Jerry to inquire about ANY car he inspected was at one time rebodied, Jerry's database would be able to tell the person? Is that correct? I have no idea, but I would suspect that if a rebody was detectable to one of the foremost experts on first gen Camaros, it would be in his data base. Wouldn't you make such a notation? Seems like a pretty pertinent piece of information to record. Many of the non-professional members of this forum seem to be able to spot TT's and VIN tags that have been messed with, even if for legitimate reasons. I suspect Jerry would notice that too.

What is happening is that buyers are taking the CHP certifications as a level of assurance which does not require more due diligence .
Why would anyone do that? That implies the car has not been touched since it was certified last.

Buyers are assuming that the car is authentic and genuine. Obviously that is not correct and you yourself say that buyers should spend more time doing research on a car even though the car has CHP docs. Let me ask you this Mark - what other research would you do on a car that Jerry has certified if you were interested in purchasing it?
OK, since you asked, here is what I would do - I can't speak for what others are or are not doing. First, I would ask the seller for a copy of the certification he claims to have. Second, since all kinds of paperwork can be faked now, including these types of certifications, I would contact Jerry to see if he actually did an inspection on the car. If not, the seller is lying - end of story. If yes, I would want to know when and any of the relevant details he could legally, ethically and willingly share with me. Any red flags - again the sale is probably off, depending on how much risk I am willing to take. Third, somewhere along the line I would post VIN and TT information/photos on this site and solicit feedback. We know that certain members here maintain personal files of VIN numbers and whatever scraps of history they can gather on the cars that those items belong to. Finally, if I really wanted to be sure of what I was getting into, I would pay to have the car re-certified, just to make sure it's the same car that was inspected previously. Mind you, we are talking about due diligence on a potentially high-ticket item - or at least something we hope can BECOME a high ticket item with the proper TLC. Is all this going to guarantee that I won't get taken somewhere along the line? No, but at least I would be hard-pressed to think of anything else I could have done to protect myself.

The sad truth is I will probably never have to worry about getting stung on a $50K+ pleasure vehicle. Anyways, Happy motoring!

I agree....to a point. It's so important to have a buildsheet or pop plate or Canadian documentation if it's a Canadian car. But if not, you need someone who has seen hundreds, thousands, to lessen your chances of buying anything other than a true Z-28. We all know the fakes are looking more and more authentic, so we need all the help we can get to protect our investment. Remember the ZL-1 on Barrett-Jackson that sold for $290,000? Ron Pratt sat and read in the paper without bidding or even looking up. Maybe he was in touch with JM :) Just speculating. What I'm trying to say to anyone wanting to buy a Z is to get a professional's advice...caveat emptor.

Caveat emptor is absolutely right. I may just be paranoid, but I would be suspicious of any and all documentation, including Canadian docs. They only prove that a car bearing that VIN was built with certain options. It does not, in any way prove that the car in question was not a rebody.

A few things to keep in mind regarding general Jerry McNeish certifications:

It does not clearly distinguish between draft reports and final reports;
It does not certify or look at sheetmetal dates or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not look at the partial VIN areas on firewalls of finished cars or state this was or wasn't done;
It does not document non critical dated components such as door panels, headrests, seat rails, clutch bracket, glass, smog, calipers, PS box, exhaust and the such which have dates on them or state this was or wasn't done.
It does not research or confirm a cars past condition and history or state this was or wasn't done; and
It does not research or confirm a cars past ownership or state this was or wasn't done.

In other words, professionals can still get "one" past him and buyers should still be responsible for doing research on any car they are considering.

If this goes back to the green Z, do you think he has changed the format of the report to clarify some things?

Guys,

Bottom line is this, if anyone posts a car for sale and says that I certified the car, ASK FOR A COPY OF THE CERT #...........OR TO SEE THE FULL REPORT! The cert # is on the right hand top side of the first page. All reports are here in my data base and lap top so I can check what I did.

Funny story, there is a classic car dealer right outside of Wash DC. During the past year, I was hired to inspect three cars there are differnet times and with three different clients. When the dealer was told that I was coming, all three of my clients were told that the cars were no longer for sale and that a non refundable deposit was taken on them. I have a million stories like this one. These dealers do not like me as they're looking for the uneducated buyer with money to spend.

Jerry

I posted this data on this site a few months back.

Jerry


When I do an appraisal certification, you receive a very detailed three or four page report depending on the car and it's condition. A punch list is also generated on missing or reproduction components. I will also offer the best plan of attack for that vehicle and it's future. All of this data along with a cert number and photos go into my CHP data base. Doing this allows me to answer questions about a car if someone should be selling a car that I inspected. All I need is a cert number and I can look up that car and tell what I found during my inspection.

In others cases, I have certified many survivor type Camaros and offered professional advise on the best direction for that vehicle. To date, I have not had one unhappy client. Being honest and straight forward with my customer base has built the successful business that I run. I am now traveling just about every week. Don't believe me, look at the travel log on my web site. (www.z28camaro.com)

Does what I do add value to a Camaro? My customers tell me yes. Some cars that I inspect are appraised and certified just so a client can sell a car with integrity behind it. These sales do go quicker. My credentials are listed at the bottom of every report that I write. My automotive resume and "Body Of Work" dates back to 1970. I have been a certified Master Judge with the Maryland Camaro Club, The United States Camaro Club, The International Camaro Club and The American Camaro Association dating back over 20 years. Camaro Hi-Performance is recognized by most insurance companies and Camaro clubs as the leader in this field. I pay annual fees to maintain state licensing credentials and nationally certified in this field. All documented reports that I write will hold up in a court of law.

I realize that many seek advise on Camaros via the Internet and forums like this one. I too answer hundreds of questions on a weekly basis when I have the time. I want anyone who enters this hobby to have a pleasant experience. The reason that I am not on these forums more often is because of time. I do not have the extra time or I would. I am a member of CRG and try to answer questions on that forum when time permits. When I go into semi retirement, I will devote more time to this site too!

If anyone would like to see a sample copy of the reports that are generated by Camaro Hi-Performance, I will be glad to send one to anyone who is interested. Just e-mail me at z28camaroman@juno.com.

I agree....to a point. It's so important to have a buildsheet or pop plate or Canadian documentation if it's a Canadian car. But if not, you need someone who has seen hundreds, thousands, to lessen your chances of buying anything other than a true Z-28. We all know the fakes are looking more and more authentic, so we need all the help we can get to protect our investment. Remember the ZL-1 on Barrett-Jackson that sold for $290,000? Ron Pratt sat and read in the paper without bidding or even looking up. Maybe he was in touch with JM :) Just speculating. What I'm trying to say to anyone wanting to buy a Z is to get a professional's advice...caveat emptor.


Ron Pratte did have a consultant with him that weekend - Kent Waters.

Funny story, there is a classic car dealer right outside of Wash DC. During the past year, I was hired to inspect three cars there are differnet times and with three different clients. When the dealer was told that I was coming, all three of my clients were told that the cars were no longer for sale and that a non refundable deposit was taken on them. I have a million stories like this one. These dealers do not like me as they're looking for the uneducated buyer with money to spend.

Jerry


That's good to know on 2 fronts - uneducated buyers know to give you a call and asshole dealers/sellers will soon think twice about taking on cars they know are suspect. The more headaches we create for unethical restorers/sellers, the more unlikely they will continue the practice.

Guys, I think this thread has gotten off track a bit. I did not start it to question whether Jerry provides enough info or his credibility, I believe his work speaks for itself. He has proven time and again he knows what he is doing, he treats clients fairly and goes above and beyond IMO to help anybody who calls on him. This is not a thread started to bash or bad-mouth him. The original question was, in light of market conditions, if a person wanted to sell a car with no factory docs, would a cert from Jerry be better than nothing in regards to buyer confidence in a vehicle. In my mind I know it would, but I wanted some other opinions, which I have gotten several and I really appreciate. It was never intended to question Jerry's reputation or his work. Like he said, bottom line is, if a car has been certified, getting the info from the report should be easy. If a seller won't let you see the entire report, I would pass on the car, no reason why in my mind you shouldn't let someone see everything you have. And even with this, it is still the responsibility of the buyer to check the car out prior to purchase or have Jerry or some other person well-schooled about camaros to check it out. I just think we are being a bit hard on Jerry, I don't think he should have to come on here and try to defend himself. If you look at a copy of his certs, you will know what kind of diligence and quality of service you are getting. Just my two cents here.

Rod - my questions are only trying to establish a clear definition of what a Jerry McNeish certification really is and speaks directly to the original post. That is a far cry from bashing or bad mouthing someone. I believe that everything Jerry writes in a report is accurate - that is not the issue here.

It's what is NOT in the report which is what I would like to understand. Here's a simple question that I think many here will have a different answer to: If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body? Yes or no?

To keep it on topic, again, I would say that in this case with there being a question as to the production date on supposedly (not saying it is not) the original motor being dated after the car, that a certification from Jerry would not only prove beneficial to a sale, but would add value.

I for one did not know that some Z's (and I assume other camaros from this date period) will have motors stamped later than the car. Unless I had "trusted" information to the contrary, I would assume that the motor was a restamp.

As the restamp information is a closely guarded "secret", the only way for the one buy hobbiest (single car guys) to know that this car is legit would be a report from a trusted certifier.

As for me, I usually only buy cars with original motors, so if I was interested in your car, I would want a level of confidence that that motor was real. Otherwise, I might pass on this car in favor of another Z, even though I liked this car better.

One point brought up by Casey that I thought worth going over again, is a CURRENT inspection by Jerry or whomever you choose.

Many "original" parts tend to walk away over time "prior" to sale.

For this Z in particular, I still think you need more than just a conversation on an internet site to prove that a motor with these date issues is legit.

Good Luck with the sale.

Friends,

Rich

Rich,

Has anyone seen Sam Bingo's 10-10 '69 Z28 in New Jersey? I have had many calls about the car and if I knew the car. I have never seen it so I could not reply. If it's a pedigree drive train and a nicely done car, $50-60K is a steal! More research needed here.

I looked at a fairly nice Glacier blue Z28 yesterday........and a Yenko scheduled for tomorrow.

The market is still good on the nice cars. It's the mutts that are having trouble being sold.

Jerry

Maybe the word "bash" is too harsh. But I still did not intend this for this to become a grilling session for JM. As to your question about rebody and panel numbers, my thought is that if a person is educated enough to know about these panel numbers and that cars can be rebodied, then they should check it out for themselves or ask JM or another person they trust to check it out for them. I know where you are coming from, I admire your tenacity, but I think it is kinda turning from getting info from JM to where he has to explain every detail of his reports, which I think has already been accomplished through his many years of service. Gotta hand it to you, your passion for these cars is evident, which is a good thing.

Rod, I would get the cert. I am more of a hobbyist than anything so to me it adds a little "depth" to the vehicle. What it adds to the value doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

Takes a lot of time to answer questions here. If I was retired I would do more of it. If anyone has in-depth questions, they should come to the Camaro Nationals and see what goes on there. Many questions can be answered in great depth at this event.

Jerry

Maybe the word "bash" is too harsh. But I still did not intend this for this to become a grilling session for JM. As to your question about rebody and panel numbers, my thought is that if a person is educated enough to know about these panel numbers and that cars can be rebodied, then they should check it out for themselves or ask JM or another person they trust to check it out for them. I know where you are coming from, I admire your tenacity, but I think it is kinda turning from getting info from JM to where he has to explain every detail of his reports, which I think has already been accomplished through his many years of service. Gotta hand it to you, your passion for these cars is evident, which is a good thing.

Educating the public starts right here. For first generation Camaros, TC and CRG are square one. What we as a community discuss, really impacts the direction the hobby goes to police itself. Establishing clarity helps everyone and this is what I am trying to do since so many people have so many different definitions to what a Jerry M. Certification means.

I tried to simplify my question so could you please answer with a yes or no?

If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body?

I tried to simplify my question so could you please answer with a yes or no?
If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body?

Hylton,

This information is flagged on many inspections. I do not have the personal time to sit and post on these sites all day. Does not pay the bills and I can't type 110 words a minute. When I retire I will but I have to run and business and travel just about every week and still find time to build engines, set up rears, restore transmissions, intakes, carbs, dists, answer e-mails, customer calls, etc, and then there's my own race car that I want to set the NHRA national record with in the spring? That hasn't even been touched yet so I have to find time to work on that.

The reason I'm answering now is I'm doing my UPS shipping on the computer.

Jerry

Jerry - I'll send you $100.00 bucks to answer this question with a simple yes or no...

If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body?

Hylton,
If your question is aimed at me, then it is yes and no. If the car is claimed to be a survivor, then yes. If the car has been restored, then no. If I were buying a car that had been certified, then I would look at the report, while at the same time look at the car. At the end of the day, the responsibility of making sure I am buying what I think I am lies with me.

If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body?

Hylton,
Now that is obviously a paradigm. Not to be a smarta** but if the report doesn't say that there is 'no monkey in the trunk' should one assume that there is a monkey in the trunk. Logic to me is that if it does not state specifics on body panels, then body panels were not inspected. And if someone assumes, all on their own, that a specific unmentioned criteria is this or that, then the responsibility of error is that of the assumer and not that of any certifier. I take it that your intent, or more precisely where you are coming from, is that the level of importance of that specific criteria is of a higher degree of importance now-a-days because of the the rebodies and that it should be included in the report. Is that correct? If not, please post the specific verbatim verbiage from an example report that would lead you to believe that it is a 1000 point certification.
Your beer owing friend,
Chuck.:beers:

Hylton,
If your question is aimed at me, then it is yes and no. If the car is claimed to be a survivor, then yes. If the car has been restored, then no. If I were buying a car that had been certified, then I would look at the report, while at the same time look at the car. At the end of the day, the responsibility of making sure I am buying what I think I am lies with me.

Hylton,
Now that is obviously a paradigm. Not to be a smarta** but if the report doesn't say that there is 'no monkey in the trunk' should one assume that there is a monkey in the trunk. Logic to me is that if it does not state specifics on body panels, then body panels were not inspected. And if someone assumes, all on their own, that a specific unmentioned criteria is this or that, then the responsibility of error is that of the assumer and not that of any certifier. I take it that your intent, or more precisely where you are coming from, is that the level of importance of that specific criteria is of a higher degree of importance now-a-days because of the the rebodies and that it should be included in the report. Is that correct? If not, please post the specific verbatim verbiage from an example report that would lead you to believe that it is a 1000 point certification.
Your beer owing friend,
Chuck.:beers:

Thanks for answering guys. Rod, that is what I believe as well and Chuck, yes this is the issue. Anyone else care to have a go at the question?

Hylton - as a reader I can't help but get the impression you have it in for Jerry, as someone that has been on the forums a long time I think different. The point is like a journalist trying to break a story you are not looking at the spot you are putting others in. In this case it looks like you want Jerry to say and admit something that might be harmful to his business... Either way he answers (yes or no) can be twisted and held against his business! At that your money offer for a yes or no answer was out of line as it might take up a whole chapter in a book to explain and back up that yes or no answer.

Does an original POP, build sheet or window sticker indicate the car has born with sheet metal? One must take documentation of any kind for it's value and contribution to the whole picture, including Jerry's certification. You cannot read any more into a document than what it states, why would you expect anything else. What you are asking is like me saying the sky is blue and someone else twisting that to include I also infered the grass is green...

Hylton - as a reader I can't help but get the impression you have it in for Jerry, as someone that has been on the forums a long time I think different. The point is like a journalist trying to break a story you are not looking at the spot you are putting others in. In this case it looks like you want Jerry to say and admit something that might be harmful to his business... Either way he answers (yes or no) can be twisted and held against his business! At that your money offer for a yes or no answer was out of line as it might take up a whole chapter in a book to explain and back up that yes or no answer.

I certainly am not out for Jerry. I was hoping readers would understand what I think about Jerry and his importance to the hobby. He is THE 1st gen Camaro guru and I hold his credentials, experience, knowledge and professionalism at the very highest regard. Not a day goes by where I am working on my Z, that I do not realize and appreciate the amount of information I know because of his work. For this Jerry, I truly thank you and am extremely grateful.



Does an original POP, build sheet or window sticker indicate the car has born with sheet metal?

No it doesn't. This is a simple answer to a similar question that I have posed. I have no idea why you think my question about Jerry's documents is any different from your question. Is it possible to answer your question with a sometimes yes or sometimes no (qualify)? No it shoudln't be. It's a clear and straitforward answer that everyone understands.

Original POP, build sheet or window stickers do not indicate the car has born with sheet metal.



I believe only one of these answers should be correct but not both as you have implied Dennis:

A Jerry certification report that DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates means the car has it's original body.

-or-

A Jerry certification report that DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates means the car may not have it's original body.


You can't have it both ways. We are not talking about why or why not a verification for rebody was done. We are only talking about looking at a physical report. What am I looking at with respect to a rebody? Just trying to establish clarity - simple as that.

Rich,

Has anyone seen Sam Bingo's 10-10 '69 Z28 in New Jersey? I have had many calls about the car and if I knew the car. I have never seen it so I could not reply. If it's a pedigree drive train and a nicely done car, $50-60K is a steal! More research needed here.

I looked at a fairly nice Glacier blue Z28 yesterday........and a Yenko scheduled for tomorrow.

The market is still good on the nice cars. It's the mutts that are having trouble being sold.

Jerry

Not that I know of. Would be nice to know.

When can I get you down to Look at that 70 L78 survivor I bought (In Feb issue 08 Hot Rod)?

Mardi Gras is in two weeks :) :) :)

Rich

I have a 69 Z/28, with what I believe to be the original drivetrain. I do not have any paperwork with the car, only owner history. Do you think I would benefit enough having Mr. MacNeish inspect the car and write up a certification, or would I be smarter to not to spend that money and just sell the car as it is? I would be looking at probably $2k to have him inspect it, so do you think the market would support spending that to have it done or would I not really add enough value to the car. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. ]
Rod,
For your specific circumstances, yes it would be to your benefit. It would be a mistake not to get a cert, irregardless of whether your purpose was for resale, insurance replacement, show points, knowledge, ego, etc. It's a form of insurance to protect your investment. A tool that is available and should be used. Now the "value", speaking specifically in regards to adding dollars for resale, is your call. Is your time, energy, and initiative worth anything to you. I say yes and it well should be. If you allow a buyer to make that call then it's highly likely to be a devalued point to them to save money irregardless of the level of kowledge or level of monitary respect for JM's or any others certification. Right? I think there are way too many variables to provide a cookie cutter dollar figure or a scientific formula to say that it would increase by x amount of dollars. I think you should post a survey simply asking would you pay more for a car with certification than without and let the statistic tell. And take it with a grain of salt considering the possibility of ulterior motives. Hope this helps.
Chuck.

Hylton - they say a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer too. A lawyer also nevers asks a question if it doesn't support his case. My whole point is you already know the answer to your question so what is your case? This is a forum of some what like minded Camaro enthusiasts. Why present your point like a lawyer in court? Why take this agressive approach with someone you have so much respect for?

Jerry - I'll send you $100.00 bucks to answer this question with a simple yes or no...

If a Jerry certification report DOES NOT say or mention anything about rebodying or body panel dates, does that mean the car has it's original body?

As I see this, if the answer is "No" people are going away believing the car's a re-body because the answer spins a conclusion out of information not provided. If the answer is "Yes" then it implies any issue not covered in writing is defaulted in a positive favor of the car.

Either answer takes away from what Jerry does because it addresses something that isn't stated and implies a conclusion can be drawn from something that wasn't said...

I think the issue at hand here is that Jerry is "Certifying" cars. So what exactly is he certifying? Trim tag, original motor, original body? I know when I stamp a drawing as an engineer, my butt is on the line and I can lose my license if I overlook a detail. I expect the same if I am buying a "Certified" car. I want a guarantee that it is the real deal, trim tag, body, etc. I don't think the same questions would be asked if he was simply appraising a vehicle, but when one "certifies" something, it should reflect a guarantee - not an opinion. And in the case of a "certified" car, that means a guarantee that is was not rebodied and that it started life in the certified configuration....

Have to say love these debates. Makes me not want to have anything but a good for nothing clone. I know and mostly every one else does that the cars of 60s and 70s were driven and beaten on. So to find a car that has been made correct or restored? Whats the problem? Reading threads like this make people detest numbers matching cars. Next thing we will all be wearing corvette shirts,at least they know 50 percent of the cars are made up or restored.I as a Camaro lover would rather see a Camaro being driven and not being scored. Just my own thoughts . As far as a report from Jerry ,he could write eveything wrong with the car and it could still be left out. IT IS THE SELLER BEING DISHONEST... BUT WOULD ANY ONE TELL A "little old lady" that here big block car is with big bucks when buying it?? People will be people...and do what they want. Wes

I think the issue at hand here is that Jerry is "Certifying" cars. So what exactly is he certifying? Trim tag, original motor, original body? I know when I stamp a drawing as an engineer, my butt is on the line and I can lose my license if I overlook a detail. I expect the same if I am buying a "Certified" car. I want a guarantee that it is the real deal, trim tag, body, etc. I don't think the same questions would be asked if he was simply appraising a vehicle, but when one "certifies" something, it should reflect a guarantee - not an opinion. And in the case of a "certified" car, that means a guarantee that is was not rebodied and that it started life in the certified configuration....

As Jerry addressed a bit earlier, how far apart are you willing to tear down your car for a certification? As an engineer you are dealing with a completely different process. Is it possible to reverse-engineer something without taking it apart and maybe taking it to bare metal? As I see it in Jerry's case you get a certification that say "I found the following". There is nothing mis-leading in that, take it for what it says and no more. If the wiper blades are not mentioned don't assume they are original or replacement. If you are paying Jerry or anyone else to certify your car and you want to know if the air in the tires is vintage ask if there is a way they can prove it and to have it included in the certification... If you are looking at buying a certified car and have questions call the certifier and ask them for assistance.

The bottom line is don't read into it what isn't mentioned...

Hylton - they say a good lawyer never asks a question he doesn't already know the answer too. A lawyer also nevers asks a question if it doesn't support his case. My whole point is you already know the answer to your question so what is your case? This is a forum of some what like minded Camaro enthusiasts. Why present your point like a lawyer in court? Why take this agressive approach with someone you have so much respect for?



As I see this, if the answer is "No" people are going away believing the car's a re-body because the answer spins a conclusion out of information not provided. If the answer is "Yes" then it implies any issue not covered in writing is defaulted in a positive favor of the car.

Either answer takes away from what Jerry does because it addresses something that isn't stated and implies a conclusion can be drawn from something that wasn't said...

I am not trying to be Matlock here. I am trying to be clear so that I am not being mis-understood. I keep trying to simplify things so everyone can understand what I am saying. Perhaps I should be more rhetorical? ;)

I think the answer "No" is perfectly acceptable because people should not be assuming that (as you have said) something that is not on the report has been verified. Rod stated this perfectly and I agree with him. It is up to the buyer to check if a car is a rebody even though the car has JM docs. What is wrong with saying that?

We cannot have one group of enthusiasts thinking one way and another group another way. We all have to speak from the same page, do you not agree?

The bottom line is don't read into it what isn't mentioned...

So from this answer, you are saying no as well then?

As I see this, if the answer is "No" people are going away believing the car's a re-body because the answer spins a conclusion out of information not provided.


Not only do a strongly disagree with this statement but I will do whatever I can to ensure people don't assume this. It just means that buyers must do their homework.

So from this answer, you are saying no as well then?

I wouldn't say that because as I already said a "NO" answer is going to imply it is a re-body when it might not be...

It's not a matter of not understanding the question, you can simplify it down to "Yes" or "No" but you have to include a series of yes and now questions to keep it from being mis-interpeted.

Not only do a strongly disagree with this statement but I will do whatever I can to ensure people don't assume this. It just means that buyers must do their homework.

Then instead of looking for a cut and dry yes or no why not just except if something isn't mentioned no conclusion can be drawn?

Then instead of looking for a cut and dry yes or no why not just except if something isn't mentioned no conclusion can be drawn?

I am saying that! That is what "NO" means to my question! It means no conclusion can be drawn and buyers will have to do their own due process.

I think the issue at hand here is that Jerry is "Certifying" cars. So what exactly is he certifying? Trim tag, original motor, original body? I know when I stamp a drawing as an engineer, my butt is on the line and I can lose my license if I overlook a detail. I expect the same if I am buying a "Certified" car. I want a guarantee that it is the real deal, trim tag, body, etc. I don't think the same questions would be asked if he was simply appraising a vehicle, but when one "certifies" something, it should reflect a guarantee - not an opinion. And in the case of a "certified" car, that means a guarantee that is was not rebodied and that it started life in the certified configuration....

You guys are funny. No one can "certify" anything without previously established criteria. Who sets the criteria and what is the criteria to make it "certified" or "certifiable".

I'm sure most of you would agree, that JM is the most recognizable and reputable figure in this field. THE expert. Being such, comes with the responsibility of keeping up with the negative trends and initiating countermeasures to that effect. Growth. We look up to him and rely upon him for a certain level of expertise. He owes it to the hobby and more importantly to his business to maintain that level of expertise, if he wants to remain top dog.

Survivor, matching numbers, concourse, etc., etc., People with ill intentions will always stretch the truth without established criteria and policing from a recognized and respected authoritative figure set in stone. JM, as THE top dog, has that responsibility to establish that criteria for his product, his "certification".

Yes. (I'm answering the original question that was asked 8 pages ago)

I wouldn't say that because as I already said a "NO" answer is going to imply it is a re-body when it might not be...

It's not a matter of not understanding the question, you can simplify it down to "Yes" or "No" but you have to include a series of yes and now questions to keep it from being mis-interpeted.

I think things can be answered in a very straight forward and open manner if a question is clear. You and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.

I will say this, if my wife ever had to qualify my question "do you want to go upstairs and make love" with a whole bunch of unnecessary qualifying sub questions, I wouldn't have any kids....:boring:

Yes. (I'm answering the original question that was asked 8 pages ago)


I think you are incorrect and are making assumptions based on information that is not on the report. As Dennis has said, why are you coming up with this conclusion when nowhere on the report does it mention anywhere that the car was inspected to determine if it was a rebody?

I am saying that! That is what "NO" means to my question! It means no conclusion can be drawn and buyers will have to do their own due process.

Tennis anyone? By asking the question and insisting on an answer, in this case a "no" you leave folks to draw one of 2 conclusions. Much more effective to just make a statement out right about not reading into it, something that isn't stated.

:beers:

well all this talk has led me to look at my macneish cert. this is what is says. Excellent, correct Britsh Green w/white stripes, body fit is excellent and all panels are flat. Excellent, no rust, original floor pans and trunk. What more can he be expected to say? We disaggreed on a few minor details, and i repaired what i deemed acceptable. Was it worth the price, i think so? He damn neer sold my car for me, until i got greedy. Damn i wish i would have sold it then!!! He is a good guy and a honest man but knowone can see everything. Give the guy a break.

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

What's all the fuss about ?!! Forget about Jerry !!! I got the guy .. oh yeeeah . when RAMAIRDAVE couldn't come up with any docs to prove his 70 Z was a COPO I got a guy who is THE .. THEEEE foremost authority to cert Dave's car as an original COPO. Guys not even in it for the money . All I had to do was buy the cat a sandwich and he issued the cert right there on the spot and sent it next day air !! IRON CLAD BABY !! He even had two witness's that are beyond reproach sign the Cert



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/th_CopoCert.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/ChevyThunder/CopoCert.jpg)

I will say this, if my wife ever had to qualify my question "do you want to go upstairs and make love" with a whole bunch of unnecessary qualifying sub questions, I wouldn't have any kids....:boring:

Totally different, you are not questioning the certification of your love making or something that wasn't stated in the certification! ;)

Tennis anyone? By asking the question and insisting on an answer, in this case a "no" you leave folks to draw one of 2 conclusions. Much more effective to just make a statement out right about not reading into it, something that isn't stated.

:beers:

I was not trying to set anyone up. I apologize to anyone who thought answering the question would be like going for the peanut butter on a mouse trap. It wasn't. I just wanted other peoples opinions and Jerry's as well.

We cannot have people thinking a report means more than it does or more than what Jerry writes in it. The problem going on now is that people are drawing there own conclusions. We all need be on the same page.

....... I just wanted other peoples opinions and Jerry's as well.

We cannot have people thinking a report means more than it does or more than what Jerry writes in it. The problem going on now is that people are drawing there own conclusions. We all need be on the same page.

My opinion: Only more recently have bodies become as big a topic as the drivetrain. I would never assume that if the drivetrain was not specifically mentioned in a report, it was original or not orginal.

Tennis anyone? By asking the question and insisting on an answer, in this case a "no" you leave folks to draw one of 2 conclusions. Much more effective to just make a statement out right about not reading into it, something that isn't stated.

:beers:

Dennis....I agree that no matter how the questions is answered, it would be wrong :) Reminds me of a lawyer asking a man on the stand, who he is trying to discredit.

" Sir....are you still beating your wife, Yes or No ? "


Kev

What's all the fuss about ?!! Forget about Jerry !!! I got the guy .. oh yeeeah . when RAMAIRDAVE couldn't come up with any docs to prove his 70 Z was a COPO I got a guy who is THE .. THEEEE foremost authority to cert Dave's car as an original COPO. Guys not even in it for the money . All I had to do was buy the cat a sandwich and he issued the cert right there on the spot and sent it next day air !! IRON CLAD BABY !! He even had two witness's that are beyond reproach sign the Cert

Van, don't forget that it's actually double-certified :yes: Don't worry though... I certified Chris to certify :D

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/Camaros/100_3686.jpg

I think people are reading more into JM's report than is intended. JM is not a 'certifying' agency (Like USDA is to beef). He's a very knowledgable, very experienced camaro guy whose word carries a lot of weight with lots of people! I see his 'certification' as NOT being a blessing or a curse on the car. What does that are the words he used to describe the car's originality and condition in the vital areas of engine, trans, rear, chassis, paint/body, interior, etc.. He is "CERTIFYING" his report as being True, Honest, and Accurate to the extent of his knowledge base. What the report certifies I'm sure, varies with what he's asked to do for each individual client. that's all any one individual can do. A certification is only as good as the talent and honesty of the person doing it. and we each get to judge... for ourselves. To argue will not bring this or any such discussion to a conclusion. We've heard everyone's viewpoint. I'm sure Jerry has heard them as well. Maybe he will find a way to address some of the concerns, or maybe he won't. That is his choice, just as it's yours to decide what it means.. but I've not seen anything that says he's stamping each car as 'Prime', 'choice', or just 'graded'.. :) so quit trying to force him to say it...

I haven’t had the opportunity to use his services.
But IMHO I cannot see myself paying $2000 for his certification.......

Is there any accountability if something is overlooked?

If fraud is found after a JM certified car is purchased what happens next?

Does that $2K investment bring him to court on your behalf?


That would be worth $2K!!!

All joking (as per the above posted certs) aside, I don't envy JM's position when it comes to evals of these cars. You can be right-on on hundreds of cars, but it only takes one to completely screw it up. We've seen it happen before.

We do several full evaluations a year, but on unrestored cars. Much easier than on a car that has been restored. I know my way around the first gens well enough to tell if its the real deal prior to resto. After resto, it would be difficult for me declare a car as "real". Fake stamps/tags/paper have been common for decades.

IMO, I think there is an issue with the term "Certification of Authenticy" that is titled at the top of the certs, whether its a true car or not.

Jerry does not charge 2K for a certification ... people need to read the thread . Jerry has already broken down what he charges in

IMO, I think there is an issue with the term "Certification of Authenticy" that is titled at the top of the certs, whether its a true car or not

Dave if that is verbatim then that is another loophole because there is no such thing as Authenticy.

To infer (an unknown) from something that is known is conjecture. JM's product is supported by HIS criteria, HIS known facts or experience, HIS formalities.
The argument would be lost in court every time.

It seems to me that opinion vs. fact is at play here as well. His facts (his criteria) clarify what his cert means. If anyone adds to it, then it's opinion, not fact, thus conjecture.

Who's to be held accountable for conjecture, an inferrence or a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence.

I think people are reading more into JM's report than is intended. JM is not a 'certifying' agency (Like USDA is to beef). He's a very knowledgable, very experienced camaro guy whose word carries a lot of weight with lots of people! I see his 'certification' as NOT being a blessing or a curse on the car. What does that are the words he used to describe the car's originality and condition in the vital areas of engine, trans, rear, chassis, paint/body, interior, etc.. He is "CERTIFYING" his report as being True, Honest, and Accurate to the extent of his knowledge base. What the report certifies I'm sure, varies with what he's asked to do for each individual client. that's all any one individual can do. A certification is only as good as the talent and honesty of the person doing it. and we each get to judge... for ourselves. To argue will not bring this or any such discussion to a conclusion. We've heard everyone's viewpoint. I'm sure Jerry has heard them as well. Maybe he will find a way to address some of the concerns, or maybe he won't. That is his choice, just as it's yours to decide what it means.. but I've not seen anything that says he's stamping each car as 'Prime', 'choice', or just 'graded'.. :) so quit trying to force him to say it...

This is one of the things we are trying to establish. If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that the "certification" means that the INFORMATION on the report is true and correct, not that the car is really a genuine (Z/28, L78, COPO, etc.). Correct?

Nobody is arguing here, we are trying to establish the definition of a Jerry McNeish certification. Whether or not he wants to participate in the discussion is entirely up to him.

No one is twisting anyones arm to utilize Jerry's services. He is a recognized expert over many yers and has written books on the subject. In my experience serious buyers for serious cars highly value his expertise and appraisal. Give it a rest already!:boring:

I am looking for a 69 Z. Jerrys cartification means alot to me, as I do not have the knowledge on these cars like a lot of guys on TC. I would feel 100 times better knowing that he had certified the car and I had a paper showing me what is there and what is not. I do not want a car without its born with drive train!
Just my opinion.

Dave if that is verbatim then that is another loophole because there is no such thing as Authenticy.

To infer (an unknown) from something that is known is conjecture. JM's product is supported by HIS criteria, HIS known facts or experience, HIS formalities.
The argument would be lost in court every time.

It seems to me that opinion vs. fact is at play here as well. His facts (his criteria) clarify what his cert means. If anyone adds to it, then it's opinion, not fact, thus conjecture.

Who's to be held accountable for conjecture, an inferrence or a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence.

Let's not try to make this a legal issue here and start debating conjecture vs. fact. We are simply trying to understand what the definition of a Jerry McNeish certification is.

So far I think we have all agreed that a) - nobody should be assuming anything that is not in a JM report and b) - any information in a JM report should be undisputable. Cool, I agree. Those are important clarifications. So does the Certificate of Authenticity mean that the information in the report is what is being certified (as mentioned earlier by 69Z28-RS) or is it the car being certified?

No one is twisting anyones arm to utilize Jerry's services. He is a recognized expert over many yers and has written books on the subject. In my experience serious buyers for serious cars highly value his expertise and appraisal. Give it a rest already!:boring:


Your post tells me you have no idea what we are talking about here. None. Either re-read the entire thread or -

User CP -> Jerry McNeish Certification -> unsubscribe....


Problem solved.

Been reading this whole thing since it started and finally feel the need to throw in my 2 cents worth (you get what you pay for).. There are LOTS of guys here who are self proclaimed experts, myself included, who can spot a bad fake from a mile away. We all know what to look for as far as options, hidden VINs, etc. Do you really think the guys faking cars are complete idiots ? They are as good at what they do as we are at knowing what to look for. They are probably long time Camaro guys who saw a way to make a quick buck. Everytime one of us posts here about some new way of telling a "real" Z/28 from a fake they add that info to their list of things to do the next time they clone one. Jerry takes the time to look at everything possible within what the owner will allow. I'm sure most guys with mint restored cars are not about to let him pull off an intake manifold to check the casting date on the bottom. He had a huge database of info to refer to from the large number of original cars he's seen over the years. He is simply the best qualified to provide this service but is also human and can make mistakes. If you were selling a Babe Ruth signed baseball for 50k would you have a better chance if you had it "certified" by an autograph expert or a letter from your uncle Joe that says he was told it's the real deal ?

Your post tells me you have no idea what we are talking about here. None. Either re-read the entire thread or -

User CP -> Jerry McNeish Certification -> unsubscribe....


Problem solved.

Thanks for setting me straight!:p

I'll go for the letter from " Uncle Joe"

Seems to me that this whole discussion is revolving around 1 word! CERTIFICATION ( definition = guarantee ). If we were to change this word to INSPECTION we would not be having this discussion AND we would still have the all the benefits of the knowledge gained from a Jerry Report.

Seems to me that this whole discussion is revolving around 1 word! CERTIFICATION ( definition = guarantee ). If we were to change this word to INSPECTION we would not be having this discussion AND we would still have the all the benefits of the knowledge gained from a Jerry Report.

I agree. The word "inspection" speaks to the work performed and to that, it is beyond reproach. It would certainly add clarity to everything. The other word that needs clarifying is "authenticity" since every inspection gets a "Certificate of Authenticity"

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

Mike, if you keep that up you're gonna get fat! :)

This has been a lot of hoo-ha to wade through. I'd like to answer Rod's original question from the perspective of an ignorant noob that has no business in that sort of market anyway.

I know jack-all about any of this. My Camaro knowledge is from owning a POS 69 plain jane for a year or two in high school and being half-a$$ involved in doing some work on a couple others. I didn't know who Jerry was until I read this thread, but I've got his book on my amazon list of stuff to buy (had to go look).

Now given that I had the cash and were in the market for a Z/28, I would at the very least be much more serious/comfortable about buying one that he has inspected. When we're talking $50k zone, I would be willing to pay an extra few grand for the Jerry M paperwork with 2 hypothetically "identical" cars. Given all the caveats previously mentioned, etc. etc.

So if it were me, I'd go ahead and do it. At the very least you'll settle the issue once and for all in your own mind. :thumbsup:

Seems to me that this whole discussion is revolving around 1 word! CERTIFICATION ( definition = guarantee ). If we were to change this word to INSPECTION we would not be having this discussion AND we would still have the all the benefits of the knowledge gained from a Jerry Report.

Jerry may want to take this advice!

This is good!

mike, if you keep that up you're gonna get fat! :)

Lol......

I believe that is his second bag……….

Hylton, You stated "I believe that everything Jerry writes in a report is accurate". The report I received from CHP states "This Z28 Camaro coupe and drive train have been certified as real and authentic". It is very clear to ME that my car is not a rebody and the report didn't have to spell it out to me. It also didn't tell me that the car doesn't have the original tires, wiper blades, radiator hoses, fan belt etc. I suggest that you plan to go the the Camaro Nationals, June 26-29 and find JM and ask all the questions you want. I am sure he would be more that happy to answer them. Time to put a fork in this thread, its done!.

Hylton, You stated "I believe that everything Jerry writes in a report is accurate". The report I received from CHP states "This Z28 Camaro coupe and drive train have been certified as real and authentic". It is very clear to ME that my car is not a rebody and the report didn't have to spell it out to me. It also didn't tell me that the car doesn't have the original tires, wiper blades, radiator hoses, fan belt etc. I suggest that you plan to go the the Camaro Nationals, June 26-29 and find JM and ask all the questions you want. I am sure he would be more that happy to answer them. Time to put a fork in this thread, its done!.


Why is it clear to you that your car is not a rebody? Does the report state the car was inspected for this?

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

:beers:

Why is it clear to you that your car is not a rebody? Does the report state the car was inspected for this?

Hylton,
Not to be insulting, but you're like a pitbull with a bone, aren't ya'.:yes:

:beers:

Hylton, You stated "I believe that everything Jerry writes in a report is accurate". The report I received from CHP states "This Z28 Camaro coupe and drive train have been certified as real and authentic". It is very clear to ME that my car is not a rebody and the report didn't have to spell it out to me. It also didn't tell me that the car doesn't have the original tires, wiper blades, radiator hoses, fan belt etc. I suggest that you plan to go the the Camaro Nationals, June 26-29 and find JM and ask all the questions you want. I am sure he would be more that happy to answer them. Time to put a fork in this thread, its done!.


My personal opinion is it would be foolish to assume the car is not a rebody based on that one sentence. Could be a authentic coupe body but not necessarily the orig one though. If it came into court testimony I don't think that statement could hold Jerry to meaning the body was orig. Without tearing the car down to nothing and stripping the firewall there is no way he could ever absolutely guarantee it is the orig body and even then there are guys that can hammer weld a panel good enough that you couldn't prove it was redone.

Hylton,
Not to be insulting, but you're like a pitbull with a bone, aren't ya'.:yes:

:beers:

I am just direct and to the point when talking about issues that affect the hobby. The more we remove the fog around some things that aren't fully understood, the better we all are.

If someone asks me what a Jerry MacNeish certification means, I want to know I fully understand before giving an answer. It's not fair to Jerry, his customers or someone who is considering buying a certified CHP car if we are all assuming different things. Is that so much to ask? :(

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif
http://www.bmigaming.com/Images/gm-2295red.jpg
http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

:D

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif
http://www.bmigaming.com/Images/gm-2295red.jpg
http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1974_eating_popcorn.gif

:D

I have a case of Yuengling.:beers:

Hylton,

I am back from my inspection trip. My client just told me this morning that this was the best $1600.00 that he ever spent.

In regards to all of your questions, please feel free to call me and I'll explain exactly what I do at an on-site Camaro inspection. 410-781-0418. I suspect that you will never use my services and are just inquiring about what I do. Again, 410-781-0418 or I'll be at the Camaro Nationals as I am every year. I will be glad to explain as I do with anyone who calls about having an on-site inspection.

My licensing and certifications are recognized through the state of Maryland insurance commission and International Automobile Appraisers Association. Being certified allows you to be recognized as an expert witness in a court of law and write documents about a vehicle in the field of my expertise.

Call me anytime. What is your name?

Jerry
410-781-0418

Thanks Jerry. I will call you and don't assume I won't use your services because I was planning on it with my '69 RS/Z.

Hylton Jorssen

Wow, ive seen this thread hanging around but hadnt dove into it. I had no idea the saga that had unfolded over a JM certification.

I think Jonesy has the right idea.

http://www.buddy-icons.info/img/smile/1537.gif

Jonesy DEFINITEly has the right idea.. if he has a case of Yuengling AND a popcorn popper *G*

I can't believe Jonsey can eat all that popcorn without a soda

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)
http://www.encircling.us/photoplog/file_3587.jpg

You guys had better stock up because I won't be able to call Jerry for a couple of days. :p

I can't believe Jonsey can eat all that popcorn without a soda

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)
http://www.encircling.us/photoplog/file_3587.jpg

Damn, thats the smiley I was searching all day for.....:D

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-eatdrink007.gif

I can't believe Jonsey can eat all that popcorn without a soda

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)
http://www.encircling.us/photoplog/file_3587.jpg

I dont think thats a soda. :) Which is even better

I can't believe Jonsey can eat all that popcorn without a soda

http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/1947_eating_popcorn_and_drinking_beer.gif (http://www.clipartof.com)
http://www.encircling.us/photoplog/file_3587.jpg

Awesome smiley -- I think we should petition the mods to kep this one!!!! (BTW - I don't think its a soda!)

Well, I put my car up for sale in the TC classifieds, gonna see if I get any bites on it. If it doesn't sell by spring, I am gonna have Jerry "certify, exam, look at, write up, authenticate, or whatever you want to call it". It may not add any value to the car, but I still want him to look at it and help me with any issues he might come across that I can fix to make the car as original as possible. I have read his book, talked to him on the phone, and I know he will be very helpful. Even with a written summary or certification, it is still the responsibility of a potential buyer to ask questions, look at the car and determine for themselves if it is the car for them. I don't see a reason why having JM authenticate the car could possibly hurt a potential future sale. Just my opinion, thanks to everyone who had input on this discussion. Even though I think it got a little off track at times, it has been very helpful. At the end of the day we all want the same thing, to have honesty and proper dealings in this hobby, and to look out for each other any chance we can. Thanks guys.