My Dad and I replaced the driveway carport with another one, same size in width and length just a little taller. New 4x4 treated posts 3 1/2 ft in the ground .. 3 on each side, 8 1/2 ft high and new 2 x 10 by 16 ft running left to right on each 4x4 with a 1/2 plywood in the middle .. and then new 2 x6 x 20 running front to back .. NOTHING was added to the Length or Width , I mean we were just replacing a messed up driveway carport that hurricane Dolly had messed up on use this past summer. Well on the last day and I swear when we were nailing the last nail , 2 city officials come by and ask for our permit.. and I said "I thought we did not need one since we were not adding on nor expanding the driveway were just fixing it" ..............he said "yeah you do, you would not need one if you would of left your old post there and did just the roof" ....... I then responded with "Why the hell would we left those OLD rotted out posts there with a NEW roof" , he told me "im sorry thats the law"

so we have a stop work order sign stapled to the post , what sucks is that we are done already but know we have to get an architect to draw out or design the plan and then we have to take it to city hall and have it approved or my dad will get fined .. he has 30 to respond.

I guess my question was if I was right but I guess I answered my own question which I was WRONG !!

Just have to play the game now, nothing you can do but write out a few checks. It's too bad.
The only way you can sink a 4x4 treated post in the ground around here (CA) is if you're putting up a fence.
Might try drawing your own plans and see if the city plan checker will give you some direction on codes. Might save you a few $$ if you can get around hiring an architect. Sounds like a basic structure.
Good luck,
Doug

I don't know the regs/code of where you're at, but I would say Doug is right. You're pretty much at their mercy and have to play by their rules.

It sucks (trust me, I know), but it's how it is.

Most places both south and north of the border allow for maintenance and or repair of non structural items without permit (IE. remove old flooring and update, painting, replacing broken fencing etc.). Any thing deemed structural (think load bearing walls, roofs, flooring, decks etc.) will require a permit. The systems in place to protect the general public, future owners and yourself. Most states will have their own building codes then each county will include anything they deem pertinent and the same for each municipality. The Idea is to insure the that each structure weather it is a building, deck, fence etc. will be able to withstand any foreseeable loading be it earthquake, tornado, hurricane, snow load, wind loading etc. etc.

Ultimately it means you would have had the structure proved sound by an engineer and inspected along the way to ensure proper construction. There by protecting you from possible liability issues should it fail. Protecting future owners and allowing them to be sure the structure is safe for them selfs and any one they have around it. And ensuring the structure is built to with stand expected loading forces within reason where ever it is located.

It could have been much worse than a stop work order, most places have the power to hand out fairly large fines and/or order the structure torn down. But I am assuming from what you have said they are being reasonable and most places in my experience are just that. All they are really looking for is to cover the ground that should have been done initially to ensure the public safety and ensure you are protected from liability down the road.

Would be a terrible thing to build a beautiful new carport and have it come down on say your favorite 69ss/rs, or worse yet see some one close to hurt because something simple got missed during construction like strapping to ensure the roof can with stand a certain amount of wind loading. Some of the things involved are easy to over look like the right kind of coatings on your fasteners to ensure compatibility with the the coating on the wood you use. I'm sure in the end it will turn out fine for you, most times there are ways to correct any over sights, if there are any, without having to tear the structure down and start over.

Little long winded but thought I'd pass along a little insight into why they are doing this.

that happened to me a few years ago while rebuilding my deck.
guy showed up un annonced and I showed him the business end of my shotgun.
(got too many toys to lose and had a break in at neighbors house 3 days before)
cops came next lol,
went to town hall and the building inspector was wrong from the start.
tell them to show you in writing

Pretty much comes down to... if you improve the value of your home or property.... They want a cut (permit fee) and this way they can also get their hand in your pocket for property taxes.

What he said about the fees and property taxes is very true.

Since the structure is built, it's a fate accompli. In my opinion, the burden is now on the city to have THEIR architect deem the structure safe or unsafe.

If pushed though, they will find something wrong, and demand that the structure be removed. After all, we can't have people doing what they want to on their own property! That's just unAmerican.

Boy that sucks, i would of done the same thing ,but my house is not near the veiwing public though... You have to play the game though..

Pretty much comes down to... if you improve the value of your home or property.... They want a cut (permit fee) and this way they can also get their hand in your pocket for property taxes.

Doug's right, basically comes down to county getting their cut thru taxes, you would have gotten away with it around here, around here they get picky usually when some electrical is involved. For the most part, I believe most do it yourselfer's are going to build it right with or without a permit.

If pushed though, they will find something wrong, and demand that the structure be removed. After all, we can't have people doing what they want to on their own property! That's just unAmerican.
I think that varies by locality and the way the situation is handle by the homeowner from the begining.

I have a drafting program I bought off of Ebay that would probably draw plans that would get you a permit. It's called Punch Super Home Suite and I think I gave $50 for it, also sold at Walmart, Office Depot etc. Also might look at Sketch UP, it's a free down load.

Jeff

Remember the initial intent for permits, was to ensure that projects were done properly...If you let any yahoo build whatever they wanted or however they wanted... (not that this is the case here.) There would be a lot more accidents, lawsuits, and unsightly building everywhere. I do agree though that sometimes building inspectors, go over the top when it comes to regulations...Seems like the ones with less experience are the most unreasonable...As far as submitting plans. you don't have to go overkill, just a overall site plan with the footprint on what you are building, and then some detail drawing of your structural point of connections and lumber dimensions...it is just a carport replacement...It will be the in the field inspections that they will check for proper installation and keeping to your approved plans...Most times if your plan is not correct they will tell what is wrong with it so you can make the change and resumit...

It shouldn't be a big deal to pull the permit and get it inspected. Where I live you can draw up your own plans and hand it to them. I hope that they don't want to see how deep your footings are and they have rebar.

Jeff

When I went down to get a permit for my new 20x24' shop, all I had to do was take a copy of the site survey from when I bought my house, pencil in the footprint and write in diminsions, and distances from sides and rear of property and the house. Fill out the permit form which asked the type of framing, siding, and roof materials and they issued the permit. They didn't need a design drawing or any plans from an architect. From that point, I just had to set up 3-4 seperate inspections for each stage of the build, Foundation, Framing, Electrical, and Final inspection. They just wanted to make sure my structure met codes and it did except for the first elec. inspection failed because I needed 2 ground rods instead of just one.

Anyway, the moral is go down there, and ask them for exactly what they want to see before you do anything. Maybe they just want the permit application filled out, a hand drawing of your lot and distances and diminsions of the structure and where it is on the lot, and most importantly, to pay their permit fee. Since the structure is built already, you can probably just pay the fee, then have them come inspect it to close out the permit.

I also had to replace my entire fence around my backyard, which would not have needed a permit if it was a direct replacement in location and material type and height. But because I changed it to an 8ft, instead of the previous 6ft fence, and because I moved part of it's location, I needed a permit.

The fee is really usually not that much. For my shop it was about $150 in my area, but that was because they had to do 4 inspection visits. I think the fence permit was like $20.

Good Luck!

Remember the initial intent for permits, was to ensure that projects were done properly...If you let any yahoo build whatever they wanted or however they wanted... (not that this is the case here.) There would be a lot more accidents, lawsuits, and unsightly building everywhere. I do agree though that sometimes building inspectors, go over the top when it comes to regulations...Seems like the ones with less experience are the most unreasonable...As far as submitting plans. you don't have to go overkill, just a overall site plan with the footprint on what you are building, and then some detail drawing of your structural point of connections and lumber dimensions...it is just a carport replacement...It will be the in the field inspections that they will check for proper installation and keeping to your approved plans...Most times if your plan is not correct they will tell what is wrong with it so you can make the change and resumit...

What Mike said, it should be pretty easy to bring into compliance. I would first look into the code they cited (should be on the stop work order), it varies everywhere but usually there are square foot limits etc. to needing a permit. Inspectors are usually pretty accurate and actually fairly reasonable, but not always. Check it out they may be incorrect.
Also, being in the construction business, trust me codes and permitting are very much needed, although sometimes appearing ridicules. If you saw some of the scary crap those inspectors see people cobbling together you would understand why they enforce the codes. I'm an electrician, and soooo many people think they can wire anything because the ran wire to a receptacle in their garage, I've seen stuff first hand that is not only incorrect but downright dangerous, I have repaired work that has been red tagged for no permit back when I was doing some service work.
The best bet for you now is research the code requirements for your structure and deal with the permitting and compliance people accordingly. They are usually decent people and will help you out, but don't go in p/o'd at them because they can either be real helpful or make life real difficult for you. A guy I worked with said it best "arguing with an inspector is like mud wrestling a pig, eventually you learn you not only are going to lose but that he's enjoying it" :D

Sorry for your luck. Those guys can make your life hell. They probably know their law, but they may not. Often times the guys enforcing the law have their own interpretation of what it means.

The only things I can think of to try are research city ordenace laws - perhaps through your local library, on-line, or at city hall. It might also make a difference if you have pictures before / after and if the car port shows up on your platt map, and you received an insurance settlement for the damage. I can't imagine that the city would hamper recovering from hurricane damage by imposing uncessary red-tape and fees to recover what you started with.

Unfortuantely though, if these free things don't pan out, you'd be better off to play the game and pay up than fight it in court.

thanks guys for all the input ... and for the kind member who PM'd me and offered to draw me up a plan. thank you guys so much , I love this site.:D

If you ever do this again pull some kind of permit I pulled a permit for siding and shingles and put a second story on my garage.As long as you have some kind of permit it helps...

Be VERRY VERRY NICE to them. Around here, and probably there, the required inspection on that type of construction is to measure the holes (PRIOR to setting the posts and pouring any concrete) and make sure they are the proper depth.

Unfortunately, there is only one way to comply with this.

Be very nice to them, you do not want to prove your holes are deep enough.

how deep should the holes have been .. I did not dig the holes.. he had some man do it .. little did my dad know that I had a post hole digger.

the man went 32 inches deep ..

32 inches is the frost level around my way in Md.

I find it hard to believe that these two city inspectors singled you out unless they were tipped off by your nosy neighbors!:yes::mad:

I find it hard to believe that these two city inspectors singled you out unless they were tipped off by your nosy neighbors!:yes::mad:

I guess so , but which one. Well here are some pics that I wanted to share of the so called driveway that was built without asking permission. Keep in mind we were replacing a damaged carport caused by last years hurricane. This one is 100 X's more sturdy and better built. Honestly I have no clue how the other carport passed inspection if there was one YEARS ago .. and it withstood the hurricane its just it was sagging way low. My Truck roof would almost hit the bottom of the carport at its lowest point.

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/RobSSPics/MomandDadsHouse/IMG_1635.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/RobSSPics/MomandDadsHouse/IMG_1634.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/RobSSPics/MomandDadsHouse/IMG_1636.jpg

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t303/RobSSPics/MomandDadsHouse/IMG_1637.jpg

In the small NH town I live it you can act as your own architect without having to pay anyone. You can also act as your own plumber & electrician but have to have the building inspector & firechief check your work. Unfortunately in a case like yours if you go ahead and build something without a permit and then submit the permit application afterwards you pay double whatever the permit fee would have been if you had done it the proper way.

They will check your property by satellite here. They will see any additions since the original photo.

This is exactly why I hired a contractor and paid all fees (etc) as required to turn my 2 car carport into a 2 car garage. It's legal and no one can screw with me about it.

FYI: I have an addition on the back of the house that was put on by the previous owner that wasn't permitted. It caused me a bunch of grief when I refied last year.

We built a house owner builder in flagstaff, Az. and had a problem with a stairwell
going to the loft area. We had to change build from original plan, so not to piss
off the building inspector we called him over for his imput how to make the change
to pass inspection. It kind of stroked their egos a little bit and we had no problem
with the change. We had to draw a rough design so they could attach to originals.
Sometimes you have to work with them even though some of them are on power
trips. One time we hung a orange pizza menu on a room addition we were doing
to keep a nosey neighbor quiet. It looked like a city building permit. Good luck

Robert,

It is funny how Jim gave you what I would call the most important thing to do.As far as I know he is not a contractor. Hi Jeff!!! He also is a contractor. Be VERY VERY NICE TO THEM AND SUPER RESPECTFUL. YES, SIR!! NO, Sir! Is their anything else that I can do! Etc.

I know your frustration and there IS no rhyme or reason to how each town handles there permits. If you are building a carport in Northern Illinois, i don't know of a town that we would not have to get a permit here. It looks like you have done a nice job. If you were doing some lighter construction, I would tell you to have them prove the requirements, but you can bet you will be required to have the permit with what you have gone through so far. Someone else had said that they can require you to prove the footing depth, you don't want them to do that. But if they do, just say yes sir and dig a hole on one side that shows its depth. Hopefully, you have met their requirement here!!!!!!!!

Got to the building department, tell them what has happened. THEY WILL ALREADY KNOW ABOUT YOU! Ask them for the forms and requirements. Tell them that you want to make sure you don't forget anything. You can also ask if there is something that is not on the requirements that would also be helpful to them and you! Ask them if there is any money that you need to pay upfront. I always kid with them if I know they are a difficult town to deal with. You will be amazed at how that changes their attitude, and yours.

Many towns that want architectural drawings will accept these computer or neat hand drawings. If they are sticklers, you will need them sign/approved by an architect or structural engineer. For this simple construction, most building departments already know the spans, etc. But, just do what they say and get it over with and just think about all the money you saved by doing it yourself. You can not really worry about what you have no control over.

Good luck!

Are there any set back problems if so this may be a issue and you may have to get a varience.To get a varience around my way you have to post a 36 X48 inch sign in you front yard stating what you are doing so the neibors can protest if they want.Our set backs are 7 feet.When you go for the permit play dumb and dont give to much infomation speak when spoken to....I am good at playing dumb if you need some help at it PM me I'll give you all the dumb you need. Good kuck,I am sure you will get it straightened out....

Robert, it looks nicely built, I am a licenced general contractor with a structural engineering background. As nice as it looks though, there are a lot of factors that come into play with building the carport for example...the distance between each post and beam using 2x6 rafters, the distance between the rafters(looks like 24" OC), footing depth would be fine around here as long as width x width was ok, the distance between the post to post holding the beam is very critical(I would think that it would be ok considering the load is light) grade of wood would have to have correct stamp, 4x4 post would need load calculations, are hurrincane clips required there?, from looking at pics, your nail pattern on the beams even matters, size of nail on rafters to beam with X pattern matters. I am not trying to scare you but only pointing out what code inspectors look for, I alway have live and dead load calculations on site upon inspection with engineer stamp. Like I said in earlier post, you would have gotten away with it around here but its different state to state even county to county here. The best advice I can give you is go apply for permits and let inspector come out and look at carport. Do not offer questions, let him tell you what he wants, he may ask about footers but only answer after he questions it. If you need help with loads, let me know, my software is based on NC codes but it might help. Keith

One time we hung a orange pizza menu on a room addition we were doing
to keep a nosey neighbor quiet. It looked like a city building permit.
Now that's funny!:yes:
My Dad and Uncle rebuild/remodeled my grandparents whole house with just roofing permit. So the family joke is if you have a roofer's license you can fix it all, plumbing , electric, drywall etc. Wait til I tell Dad you can do it all if you're a pizza cook.l:)l:)

Jeff

Robert even thought you replaced "Existing" structure to exact measurements the issue is "CODE" i deal with it almost every day , if I change a water heater i have to upgrade that heater to Current Codes for safety reasons , I can see from the photos you used Joist hangers and such that may not have even been on the old carport and that is showing you were doing it in an attempt to make it safer.

Pretty much the issues these guys are gonna or do have is you didnt have the permit when you started Thus you tried to bypass the system in their eyes , But in the end all they really need to know is that the Structure is up to "NEW" and current Codes , As Far as you know a Strutcture that yor redoing may have 4x4's the new code for that structure size could call for 6x6's.

State's, City's, and County's change their codes more then people change their underware at worst they could set a fine for no permit or have you tear it down , but the pic's show you were more then likely adding things to make it a safer carport so all they may say is bring it to current code

In the end it all comes down to safety and thats where the permit comes in , Everyone Hates the plumbing, electrical, building inspector but he is just preforming his job to keep people alive

Not trying to Hijack this thread but on another note the days of buying a Replacement water heater are coming to an end at Home Depot and Lowes depending on what state you live in ( some have all ready started) you go to the permit desk before purchase and give them you plumbing license info so that water heater has a permit and can be inspected by the local plumbing inspector.

Not trying to Hijack this thread but on another note the days of buying a Replacement water heater are coming to an end at Home Depot and Lowes depending on what state you live in ( some have all ready started) you go to the permit desk before purchase and give them you plumbing license info so that water heater has a permit and can be inspected by the local plumbing inspector.This is just more money and hurts the home owner.I am a plumber and don't agree with this one...

In the end it all comes down to safety and thats where the permit comes in , Everyone Hates the plumbing, electrical, building inspector but he is just preforming his job to keep people alive


I think safety is a part of it, but so is the increased revenue. That fact simply cannot be overlooked. Those inspectors could have looked at his structure and determined on the spot if he was within code. They could have had him go pay the fee (for the permit) and been done with it. It smacks of governmental BS to have him get plans drawn up, etc... before he can put on the last few shingles.

I'w waiting for the states to begin doing home inspections based on the age of the home, and demanding updates be made, even though the current set up is working fine. Heck, they may already be doing it somewhere.

This is just more money and hurts the home owner.I am a plumber and don't agree with this one...


I can all ready Tell you its happening in NY, Penn, and Just started in Washington DC ( i happen to do 90% of my work there ) and yes i agree its all about the money.

I think safety is a part of it, but so is the increased revenue. That fact simply cannot be overlooked. Those inspectors could have looked at his structure and determined on the spot if he was within code. They could have had him go pay the fee (for the permit) and been done with it. It smacks of governmental BS to have him get plans drawn up, etc... before he can put on the last few shingles.

I'w waiting for the states to begin doing home inspections based on the age of the home, and demanding updates be made, even though the current set up is working fine. Heck, they may already be doing it somewhere.

thank you !!! All those guys needed to do was to look over it and say "yeah it meets our code etc... , but in the mean time we will need for you to go pull out the permit and in the meantime I will have to post a stop work order on it till you do, have a nice day"

BUT these guys are on a power trip I guess. if they would of seen how poorly built the old carport was and it still withstood that Hurricane Dolly, then this one should hold up Just Fine.

Robert don't fell so bad, they have nothing better to do right now except to find people like your self doing things without a permit, just to keep them selfs employed... A friend of mines (Union Contractor) always by the book, a CAL OSHA Inspector comes out to hes job to red tag (stop work immediately). It was a she and fresh on the streets, she tells him that she came by yesterday and saw his guys working on the scaffolding and it wasn't up to there safety code... He blew a major head gasket (because they were building the scaffolding yesterday (tyeing and strapping it to the building... Well he kicked her off the property and thats when all hell broke loose, they tried to find him $10,000 find... Turns out the big boss of CAL OSHA and the contractor plus the inspector did a there'll inspection and her supervisor ask her whats the problem, she didn't take pictures and she wasn't even their yesterday, she was just doing a drive by messing with the wrong contractor (she got in big trouble).

^^^^ thanks Skip , I feel better that one of their own got into trouble. It dont feel good does it inspector.

^^^^ thanks Skip , I feel better that one of their own got into trouble. It don't feel good does it inspector.Yeah they really drag there feet, but Ive been red tagged on a job about 18yrs ago. I was a foreman and had about 14 guys on a commercial building in San Francisco CA, these guys (CAL OSHA) jumped out of there trucks like the SWAT team scared the $hit out of me. They were snapping pictures and yelling to get down..One of my guys was a retired boxer and very large, i had to get in the middle of him and them now that i think about it i should have just stud back and watched like some of these other guys do, just play dumb. Back then that cost $8,000:mad:

State revenue,and property taxes if you don't pull a permit they lose money,if you get away with it they don't get the extra property tax until the next assessment.I try to do every thing with out a permit I think they get enough from me.Its my loss if it comes crashing down and the next owner will have a home inspection if there are problems that inspector should catch it.I guess this could also be a home owners ins.issue as well if it falls on your car and there was no permit do they have the right not to pay.This may be an issue as well.

In Arizona, if you build without a permit, sell the property,and the property is caught, even many years later, the seller of the property is responsible for the repairs to get it to current code.
Dale

You don't need an architect. All you need is to find out what specifics the building department you are dealing with requires for the structure you are building. Once you know what they require, go to the library, or search the internet, or buy that $50.00 software program, and draw the plans yourself. I've never done it myself, but one of my customers showed me his VERY cool garage / workshop, with elevator, upstairs office, spiral staircase, and all kinds of cool stuff, that he built himself and drew the plans from a library book. He said he saved about 65% bu doing it himself and doing the plans himself. Then only thing you have working against you is time.... Get 'er Dun!

Edit / Addendum:

Get used to it. Local, State and Federal govt. are ALL hurting for revenue. The are out to find every way possible they can to fill the coffers. EXAMPLE: Here in the Central Valley of Ca. we have what I call th e"Smoke Police" - on days where the air quality is projected to be bad the following day, they issue a "No Burn" day. Then they send out all kinds of people in their eco-smart cars, drive all over 8 counties, look for chimney's that are smoking, and pass out tickets to the homeowners. First offense is $50.00, then $100, and it goes up from there. The cities and counties are suffering from reduced revenue from businesses not generating revenue, so they will find it somehow. In other words, you are a victim of the economy by virtue of the tax man needin' his greenbacks :(