Anyone know about these lifers?
They look great but has anyone used them?
David
http://www.schubeckracing.com/rollerx.html

OUCH!!!! Look at the price!!!

They have been around for a little while, I have not personally used them but, I have heard good things about them. The big drawback is the cost.

The Price is cheap compared to building a whole new Engine . If they work like they say I,m in like right now . The roller lifters are the one thing I don't like about roller cams .
Mark

A set of Crower hy-po roller lifters costs over $500. These are pricy, but if they work... smile.gif

I've heard of the non-roller lifters they sell but these are new to me.
David

$940 :eek: I'll stick to my $300 Comp rollers, watch valve lash, and rebuild them every couple years.

David,
Don't get me wrong, I have been one of the "unlucky" ones that have experienced a roller lifter failure. That cost me a lot more than the price of the Schubeck lifters. If I were to try a roller on the street again I would probably bite the bullet and give them a shot. In my experience there was no warning when the roller lifter/s failed. In a drag only car you can check the valve train every few passes (meaning few actual miles) on the street cruising down the highway if a lifter starts going bad it will be to late by the time you get home.

I was hoping the price of these lifter would drop a bit but, they haven't come down much. If I remember right they were about $1,200 when they first came out. I first saw them at a car show/swap meet.

If they were down around $500 I'd take a serious look at them. Maybe price will drop some more if they a start doing more volume. Or maybe someone will come out with a knock-off . . .

Just curious Royce, what happened when yours failed w/o warning? Did you loose an axle and roller? Did you hear anything before all heck broke loose?

I don't know but I bet it sounded just like a stock, lo-po motor that eats a hy-roller lifter!!

You know, like a REALLY LOOSE solid lifter!!! "bang, bang, bang!!!"

pdq67

Eric,
I was on a long road trip, the first time I thought something was going wrong was on a freeway offramp coming to a stop I heard a squeal/screach (almost sounded like a loose belt). I pulled into a parking lot the sound would come and go, I pulled the valve covers off checked lash (visually) etc... everything was fine. I figured it was the alternator going bad. I headed for home, no problem making it home. Car still ran perfect, I had some "cheapish" roller rockers on the car so I bought new rockers (thinking they were the problem) and replaced the gear drive with a timing chain. I thought the problem was fixed, the only reason I figured out something was wrong is, my oil pressure started acting funny dropping to zero for a split second. So I figured the oil pump was going bad, and when I went to replace it, I found all kind of nice roller bearings in the oil pan. All the bearings from one lifter were gone and the roller was riding on the axle. The axle was begining to come out the side of the lifter, this gouged the lifter bore a little bit. Believe it or not the car still ran fine, I actually drove it to the store (30 miles each way) to buy the oil pump that same day.

I suppose if you keep a close eye on your lash, you might get an idea if something is going wrong but, I doubt it. When they let go it is not gradual it is right now. When I heard the original noise that is when I broke the lifter (cruising on the highway). Why the lash still looked fine I don't know, I was in a parking lot with limited tools, so the lash was probably a little on the loose side. In either case there were no warning signs. Hopefully I just had a bad set of lifters, and bad luck. I have heard of many othrs having a similar fate as me but, I have also heard of others with no problems.

I know the lifters you are running are better than the ones I was running. Even though the ones I had wer Crower and were for the "street", I think you have the ones with the oil groove, correct?

Yeah, actually these Comp "Super Roller" lifters don't have a groove (like the infamous Endurex) they have a tiny hole drilled in them (EDM is the process used I think) that forces oil to the pin. Kind of like Crower's HPPO lifters. They force feed oil from the lifter body directly to the axle. The Comps are also rebuildable . . .

Part of the reason I am trying them on this motor is because if I break this motor it is 4 years old and I wouldn't be trashing a brand new engine. I also blocked the oil filter bypass, so I figure worst case pieces parts get into my oil pump and scar my cam but no further than that. I suppose if a wheel or axle got caught up in the rotating assembly something could get bent or hurt that way too . . . but I doubt that would happen.

Crower has the new Hy-Po lifters with EDM drilled oiling holes for the rollers. Even so in talking to David Crower lately he is very cautious in keeping valve spring rates below 450 open pressure over the nose.

I talked to Dennis at Comp Cams and he said 460 is their limit. I was asking about two Comp cams I have and he didn't even want to discuss the hotter one with me. After thinking about it for a while, I guess he might have been worried about me having a lifter failure with the hotter cam since it's a race lobe not a street roller lobe, but he would not come out and say that to me.

I've heard of lots of errors where a guy buys cyl heads that come with roller springs and the customer uses those springs on the street and has a lifter failure due to the high spring pressures.
David

Yeah, I think "street roller" technology has come a long way in the last few years. I think folks are starting to figure out how to make them live on the street . . . spring pressure is a biggie.

Another theory I heard from a friend who talked to David Crower was that rev kits help keep the roller on the lobe and prevent the lifter from bouncing back and forth because of the lash. Anyone heard this before?

Eric,
Yes I have heard of that and I was running a rev kit as well. I also agree people are begining to figure out how to make them live. Crower told be the solod roller I used "should" live on the street for ~25K miles. I don't think he knew that when I said a "street car" I meant a street car. When I ran the roller cam the lifter choices weren't as they are now. I would have probably made a different choice if I did it again today.

Does anybody know how long these are going last in a street strip car , for that money you should get a few years from them . I'm going to Email him and ask what the longevity they think they have .

For what it's worth...

I dropped by my engine/dyno guy's shop today, just to see what was shakin'. I usually take a minute to see what new parts are comin' down the pipe, cause he does R&D for all kinds of people...SuperFlo, parts manufacturers, lots of neat stuff.

Anyway, was perusing some of his trick cam/lifter combos, and ran across a set of *regular* Schubecks. So, I inquired about the new "roller" lifter from Schubeck and he didn't have anything good to say about them. Said Schubeck was sendin' him his their latest lifters to try, and he ate 3 sets of cam/lifters in a couple different engines. He does nothing but rave about the *regular* Schubecks that all the S/SS guys run, but said when they called to ask him how he liked the new lifters he told them to send him some cash to fix the engines the failed lifters hurt...

Why do stock GM and ford roller lifters last so long? I don't understand what the difference? Does spring pressure and ramp speed really hurt them that much?

Joe

Chevy454,
Thanks a lot for the info, I don't want to do the test and development for unproven parts! I was really hoping to hear about someone who had used them.

Joe,
Stock hyd roller cams use very low valve spring pressures, so the loads on the lifter and rollers are low.
David

Originally posted by Eric68:
Yeah, I think "street roller" technology has come a long way in the last few years. I think folks are starting to figure out how to make them live on the street . . . spring pressure is a biggie.

Another theory I heard from a friend who talked to David Crower was that rev kits help keep the roller on the lobe and prevent the lifter from bouncing back and forth because of the lash. Anyone heard this before? The Isky Cams parts catalog says they observed the roller skidding on the cam lobe without a rev kit. It makes sense since when the lifter is on base circle there is lash and no pressure on the lifter at all.
I asked Crower about needing a rev kit and he said not to use it, wanted to reduce lifter load as much as possible so wanted to use 1.5 rockers and softer springs, milder lifter velocity.

I should have asked him if Titanium valves would help, but I think they only help a little.
David

Sometimes I wonder if the newer super slick lubes hurt lifters more than it helps them b/c of them being so "slicked-up" that they can't get a grip and either spin or roll???

pdq67

I've heard that debate on synthetic vs mineral based oils and really never saw any evidence of a correlation between using a good quality synthetic oil and lifter problems. There were some that swear there is a problem, but then there are all those OEM's using Mobile 1 in their high-end HR cammed motors. I use Mobile 1 10w30 and just now have 2000 on my street roller -- I think I'll pull the lifters this winter to check them out.

Intersting ideas on the use of rev kits. You know my friend's engine runs a Crower SR cam, but spring pressures are real high because the lobes are a bit more intense than what we'd call a regular street roller. He also set this motor up 2 or 3 years ago -- I wonder if Crower's position has changed in the last couple years OR if since he was already way over 400# pressure the scenario changes . . .

Eric,
I don't know what the deal is about the synthetic oil and cam companies. When I bought my roller cam I called Comp, Crane and Crower all three said "do not use synthetic oil". I did not use it with my roller cammed engine but, I normally run Mobil 1 as well. I have been running it every since and never had a problem. Interesting enough they also do not recommend using it with flat tappet cams either.

That is an interesting point about the rev kit and spring pressures. When I bought my "street" roller kit from Crower it came with a rev kit. They never said anything about not using it on the street. I wonder if they have discovered (since my failure) that the rev kit was causing more problems on the street than it was worth. I don't remember my spring pressures, I will see if I still have that cam card around here.

I didn't realize these were "new" Schubeck lifters, What is the difference between the "new" and old?

Nothing really new about them. They've been around at least 5 years that I know of.

If anyone has questions about them, i'd suggest they call LSM in Waterford Michigan. They did development work with schubeck to develop camshafts for those lifters.

I have never seen one fail, but I have also never seen one of those lifters on a serious engine program either.

Never ran any roller cams at all, much less a rev-kit, but do figure that lifter pressures will stay the same b/c you are still loading the lifter body and thus the roller wheel even if you are taking pressure off the plunger in the hy-roller lifter..

pdq67

The new Schubeck Roller X lifters, use any roller camshaft:
http://www.schubeckracing.com/rollerrr.jpg

The older Schubeck Radius face lifters that require their special camshaft:
http://www.schubeckracing.com/images/image004.jpg

You can get a lot more performance if you go with an agressive profile, but the lifters will take a beating. I don't know how the cam companies recomend their cams, perhaps they think a solid street roller car is not driven much...

From what I've found researching this, an engine that is crusing a lot is lacking lubrication on the needle bearings and get's hot. These new lifters with extra oiling should help a lot but no one will tell me how much more you can get away with by using them.

I read somewhere that zink was greatly reduced in motor oil formulas, zink reduces lifter wear and friction. It may have been some environmental reason, I don't know.
David

I found this about motor oil on the Crane site, interesting, note that it is mainly about flat tappet camshafts.

"New Info On Cam & Lifter Break-In Needs With Today’s Re-Formulated Motor Oils!

With the formulation of today’s oils having evolved to favor roller followers or low valve spring pressure overhead camshaft applications, getting an OHV engine’s flat faced camshaft and lifters through their critical initial break-in period is becoming more of a challenge. To meet current requirements, most oils have severely reduced zinc content. This has elevated the stresses where rubbing forces occur, leading to potential premature cam lobe and lifter failure. In many cases, reducing the valve spring pressure for the break-in period is not practical; therefore, we highly recommend that an additive with zinc dithiophosphate be included with the initial oil fill (this is in addition to the moly-based lube that should have been applied to the camshaft and lifters during assembly). Crane SuperLube (part number 99003-1) was developed over 35 years ago for this exact purpose. An 8 oz. container will provide the necessary additives to drastically reduce the potential for lobe and lifter wear during this most critical first 15 minutes of a camshaft’s life. After the initial break-in period, change the oil and filter to provide the cleanest possible environment for the internal engine components. Certain oil companies offer “racing” oils that have a decent zinc content, but may not be “street legal.” These should also be used whenever possible.

Tech Tips

Distributor Gear Wear - It has come to the attention of our Tech and Customer Service Departments about premature cam distributor gear wear and breakage. The two things that can cause gear wear are running a high volume or hi-pressure oil pump or reusing an already worn or damaged distributor gear with a new cam or vice versa. The distributor gear or cam gear has worn into a pattern and may not mesh with the new part. This can cause breakage and/or continue to prematurely wear out the gear."

[ 10-19-2004, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

And I really like Schubeck's radius foot lifter in David's pic above..

I honestly think that if both the cam lobes and the radius foot lifters are "cubic boron nitrided" and the lifter foot has that little, "direct lube" oil hole in them that both components should last a LONG time if both are mirror polished first..

Jmho..

But I have NO idea what a CBN coating polished like this on the cam and lifter kit would cost??

pdq67

PS., CBN is second in hardness behind diamond now..

These are neat lifters, and HECK they are not priced that bad considering what your engine probably cost.
My C/A Competition Eliminator stuff uses Jesel Lifters , they cost $2,100.US.
I noticed in the Comp Catalogue they make a lifter bore grooving tool to supply more oil to the lifters. Any body try it?
Most of the roller wheel failures i have seen seem to occur on Big Block Chevrolet more than the small block. Windage probably has a lot to do with it, as the connecting rods and crank run in such close proximity to the camshaft in a S.B., creating more oil splash to the roller lifter wheels. Also when you are cruising at fairly constant rpm,s such as in a street car, oil control is better and windage is probably reduced, starving the lifter wheels.
If your car sits for any length of time you should probably pull the dist., and preoil it before firing up in the spring.
I personally JB weld magnets into the valley, and at the back of the camshaft tunnel on all the serious stuff i build in case of lifter wheel failure. Magnetic drain plugs also help.
Oh, and by the way i also do not use synthetic oil, just good old Penzoil 20W-50. Call me old school, never had a brg. problem.

Just my .25 worth.

[ 10-19-2004, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: rszmjt ]

I read somewhere that zink was greatly reduced in motor oil formulas, zink reduces lifter wear and friction. It may have been some environmental reason, I don't know.
David


And I just read to use diesel motor oils in your car for this exact reason; they come with a LOT more zinc in them, and are completely compatible with a standard gasoline engine.

Jody

Jody I have always run the Penzoil 15w40 long life diesel in my blown 509 , I havn't had any problems with it at all . I do like the Amsoil stuff for the protection .
Mark .

The Crower HIPPO lifters look really nice, they have a tiny hole that pumps oil right into the roller bearing not just aiming oil at it.

When I go to SEMA I may stop by Schubecks shop and look at their lifters, but for my project I'm afraid to use them until they are more proven or developed.

David

David,

Please just come right out AND ask Schubeck what their radius foot lifter foot is made out of and what they coat the cam lobes with when you go to SEMA IF they will give you a straight answer..

Just really curious is all..

pdq67

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

-UPDATE-
I just got back from SEMA. Talked to a Comp Cams rep there and he says the new lifters introduced this year have harder needle rollers and harder pin. The lifters are also rebuildable with snap ring in the pin holes and have pin oiling holes but he says the oiling is not the main consideration, it's the needle hardness.

He also said higher springs wouldn't hurt the new lifters and would cause less hammering on the needles when the valve closes because the softer springs allow the valves to bounce on the seat.

I asked about staying below 460lbs open pressure and he stated that was the "old way" but they have learned new things about the causes of roller lifter failure.

I also went to Schubeck and talked to him. The lifters look great but no one has run them on the street, just drag and circle track. The circle track racers have been using them for around 9 months.

chevy454,
can you find out if your engine builder was using extreme sprng pressures or something???
I'd really like to have more info since yours is the only bad report so far.

After seeing the Schubeck lifters, they look like they should work fine.

I saw another pair at SEMA that ran for a season in a drag car, they looked perfect.
Hot Rod mag just published a BB engine build and dyno with the RollerX lifters and they worked in that test.
David

Good info David -- I am looking at a spring problem now, and I do have the lifters you are referring to above.

My valve lash is rock solid where it is supposed to be so I know the lifters are fine.

I think I will be going with some slightly heavier springs this time, hopefully the lifters will hold up.

Eric68,
The CC Rep told me to feel the rollers, when they feel rough, the needles are getting rough and that is the time to rebuild them.

Of course, you have to remove the rollers to feel them, but it gives you something to go on.

For my application, he didn't feel 600lb open pressure was too much!
David

Zinc,

Yup, removed due to envioronmental concerns. It was a major component in many industrial and automotive greases. Since it's removal it has created lots of grief, especially in Falk greasable couplings.

"I noticed in the Comp Catalogue they make a lifter bore grooving tool to supply more oil to the lifters. Any body try it?"

Yes, My current engine has the lifter bores grooved. I am not running a roller, it is a solid flat tappet. This is something that has been around for a while (started in NASCAR, if I remember right). With todays oil and cams I didn't want to take a chance. I wish I would have done that with my solid roller before maybe it would have lived.

I am also told that Valvoline Racing oil has zinc. I thought this was more important in flat tappet engines?

This has been very interesting reading as I am planning a roller cam 383. I am about to talk myself out of it. Does the GM EOS contain enough zinc to do any good? Is there a zinc additive available? I am a firm believer in Valvoline 10/30. Did they take the zinc out of it too? Are roller rockers affected the same way as the lifters? Sorry about all the questions but I don't want to buy something that is not going to last.

All of the currently-available HD diesel oils (Rotella, Delo, etc.) have a MUCH higher concentration of ZDDP than either conventional or synthetic passenger car oils, and the rest of the additive package (detergent, dispersant, and anti-foaming/anti-corrosion) is also stronger than regular oils, to deal with diesel engine duty cycles/change intervals. The additive package in regular oils has undergone continuing reduction as EFI systems have improved metering/mixture control and reduced blow-by contaminants that oils used to have to deal with.
graemlins/beers.gif

What John said and the fact that the extreme pressure "metallic soaps", (if you will), poisoned the cat. so that they wouldn't last as long as the EPA wants them to last for air pollution control purposes.

I figure that GOOD oils still smell like 90wt gear lube and good old EOS so use the sniffer test on them.. That and they tend to be a dark "teal" color like of old..

pdq67