500+hp out of a chevy 350? [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: 500+hp out of a chevy 350?


RSz/28
Feb 22nd, 04, 12:17 PM
Did a search but didn't find what I was lookin for.I have a chevy 350 4 bolt that has been bored 30 over. Im lookin to make 500 to the wheels so i know the motor will have to make over 500 to overcome drivetrain loss so ill be able to reach my goal of 500 to the wheels. I need to know what selection of parts I need to go with, Im not to familar with cams and many other parts for this engine so if anyone could give me some info or a good combo i would greatly appreciate it. Keep in mind I want this car to be streetable but when I go to the track I wan't to really get down and dirty. THX alot

camcojb
Feb 22nd, 04, 01:26 PM
Will you consider blower/turbo(s), or nitrous? Going to be real tough to keep it streetable and make 500 rwhp, which will require between 600 and 650 HP at the crank.

Jody

novaderrik
Feb 22nd, 04, 02:02 PM
don't take this as a personal attack or anything, but if you don't know much about cams and what not, you probably shouldn't be trying to make 500 horses at the wheels. start with a good solid bottom end with a mild top end that will be reliable- and a chassis that can handle it- then work your way up to the big power numbers.
or just get a twin turbo setup and/or a 300 shot of nitrous and get started with the parts breakage.

pdq67
Feb 22nd, 04, 02:07 PM
Sure you can but it won't be by no mean's, stock or cheap...

Start with one Dart aftermarket SB block that started life as a base 350 motor, then bore and stroke her out to like 434!!

Then start adding all the other stuff like great heads, BIG solid roller, needed compression, etc, etc and then when you are finished, tell everybody it's just a humble little old 350...

I'm not trying to be smart-headed here or start a hassle, but rather to just be realistic..

IMHO, when you start to talk about this power level, go BB!!

pdq67

PS., and don't forget the "lungs" that have been mentioned earlier, b/c one of them WILL get you there, but at a price that's probably goint to be higher then a good strong 468 or just an average 496 BB!!

fast
Feb 22nd, 04, 02:33 PM
it's certainly not cheap

I did it this way (LT1 based, not standard sbc)
and I still don't have the actual "at the wheels" numbers yet

bored and stroked to 396"
AFR 210 heads pro ported by agostino racing
custom comp solid roller (over .600" both sides)
approx. 12:1 compression (with reverse cooling I can get away with it)
fully ported LT1 intake
twin 58mm throttle body, 42# injectors, walbro pump
hooker 1.75" long tubes, 3" true duals w/ x-pipe and undecided mufflers
LT1_Edit software (allows full tuning of stock pcm, hoping for a 'f.a.s.t.' system sometime in the future)

I've got more $ in there than I care to think about

I still don't have a tranny for the car built to handle it, don't have a rear end setup for it yet (thinking I can use the beefed 10 for a little while, it is an auto, less shock on launch)

the suspension can handle it, and there is a good chunk of change there

I'm sure it's going to be 'grumpy' in traffic . . . but nothing like a similair carbed car would be

so if you're serious about it, do your homework, be aware of all the potential problems, be aware of the money and time commitment (tuning, breakage, etc.)

the bottle is the easiest way, and you can turn it off
just build a solid bottom end, spend $ on great heads, match the cam and converter and spray away

I can't wait until I get everything to where it will handle a 250 (or bigger) shot on top of that nasty, snarling EFI beast

all the best

RSz/28
Feb 22nd, 04, 04:36 PM
Wow the way some of you talk it seems if 500hp to the wheels with a 350 is nearly impossible which I know it isn't. I just wanted to know if someone knew a good combo of parts that I should pull togather. Nitrous I was thinking about adding later after my engine was built. As far as other means of FI including Turbos and superchargers they are a no go because I really wan't to keep this engine N/A.

pdq67
Feb 22nd, 04, 05:09 PM
You are looking at something in the neighborhood of a motor that puts out right at 1.71 hp/cubic inch!! Then drop off 20 percent for the drive-train losses...

It's not impossible, but in a natuarally asperated(Sp?), form, it just isn't practical b/c you are in the realm of a race motor!

THE easiest way, at least to me, to do what you want is to build a standard old 400hp/350 motor and then gas her up to above 600hp for short spurts..

pdq67

PS., here's a D2K combination if you want to consider it??

355 at 12 to 1 CR., with pro-ported, 2.08"/1.60" valves, small tube headers, 900cfm carb. & single plane and a solid roller something like.. 290/290, 111/111, .550"/.550".

This gives 615hp at 7,000 rpm and 523t at 5500rpm.. Remember it's only a sim. program but it really should start you off in the right direction, imho...

Eric68
Feb 22nd, 04, 05:41 PM
I think your goal is unrealistic. Drivetrain losses are significant -- in the neighborhood of 25%, so 500 to the rear wheels is more like 625 at the flywheel.

Making that kind of power with only 355 cid and on the motor means some serious money. If you are serious about 500 HP N/A at the rear wheels it would be much cheaper to build a big block -- and a big one at that.

camcojb
Feb 22nd, 04, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by RSz/28:
Wow the way some of you talk it seems if 500hp to the wheels with a 350 is nearly impossible which I know it isn't. I just wanted to know if someone knew a good combo of parts that I should pull togather. Nitrous I was thinking about adding later after my engine was built. As far as other means of FI including Turbos and superchargers they are a no go because I really wan't to keep this engine N/A. It certainly isn't impossible. But since you think it's easy you really don't need our advice. I've seen MANY pretty serious BIG BLOCKS that didn't make 500 rwhp. My 12:1 468 with a solid roller and fully ported Canfields was one of them. It's not easy to do with a 350 unless you're willing to spend a lot of money. This will not be a low dollar build period.

I made 480 rwhp with a 10.25:1 small block, but it was a 406 and had some very good (read expensive port work!) heads.

Jody

RSz/28
Feb 22nd, 04, 06:59 PM
Ok I understand what you guys are sayin. So would somewhere in the 400hp range to the wheels be more resonable for a 350? And if not whats a good power range for the 350 while keepin it a street/strip engine and not all out race.

camcojb
Feb 22nd, 04, 07:14 PM
Do you have a particular budget for this build? Other than a 350 block do you have any other parts that you'd like to use or are you starting from scratch basically? It's a little easier (in my opinion) to get 400+ rwhp out of a few extra cubes like a 383-406 build. If that doesn't fit the budget then it can be worked around. Trying to get an idea of how much money you have to spend and a parts list of what you're starting with.

Jody

Novaguy73
Feb 22nd, 04, 07:25 PM
Are you looking for a hp number? Or are you looking for a time slip? What are you exactly looking for here? My 11:1 350 is pretty wicked, can slurp on 90 octane {probably 87 if i kept my foot out of it} and im sure is over 500hp at the crank. My goal is low 11's, weel see this spring. Id definately recommend you do ALOT of research before you even concider doing what it takes to make some serious power and keep the motor alive. This isnt going to be a $2,500 motor if you get my gist. Have you ever built a motor? If not do you know anyone well enough to trust them on giving you detailed advice in person? If not then you best start looking. You need to read up on alot of stuff so you can make choices for yourself also. Ask alot of questions, accept the advice, but dont follow blindly, cause ultimately no one on here or any other board has to drive the car but you. Me personally i dont give a damn about my 1200rpm idle, the lack of comforts such as power steering/brakes, A/C,heck heater for that matter, street shocks, swaybar etc.etc.etc. but thats all up to you.
Now part 2. Do you have a tranny that will take a beating? Stick or auto? How about a rear end?Factory parts arent going to hold up. Are you willing to modify your chassis and give up ride quality so you can get that power to the ground? There are alot of things to concider besides just a motor. I guess my biggest chunk of advice here....before you start the buildup, educate the hell out of yourself and than decide what you want, and go for it.

RSz/28
Feb 22nd, 04, 07:26 PM
Money isnt an issue. And a stroker kit has crossed my mind.

RSz/28
Feb 22nd, 04, 07:35 PM
Well as of right now I just have a 350 that I was planing on rebuilding. As far as times I was hoping for low to sub 11's. And I do have someone I know who will build this engine for me. I just want to get a different opinion from you guys.

camcojb
Feb 22nd, 04, 07:44 PM
If you need a crank kit anyway I'd opt for the extra cubic inches and run a 383. If this is a pump gas deal shoot for a true 10 to 10.5:1 compression. .035-.040" quench (will require a pretty close to "0" deck, decked block or .020" longer rod), solid roller if the budget permits in the .580-.600 lift range and 240/250@.050 range (nail this down with your cam grinder), Dart Iron Eagles or ProAction iron heads with a good port job (I use Mike at Creative Flow Management (http://www.cfmperformance.com/) , very reasonable and more critical knows how to get very good part lift numbers which are much more important than total lift numbers), Victor Jr. manifold (I've even run the Super Vics on larger small blocks with no bottom end sogginess) or RPM style manifold, and 850-950HP Holley carb. This should make around 430-450 rwhp with a decent drivetrain. Heads and cam are key here. You could cut down the carb and cam some and still make very good power, but the last couple of N/A small blocks I had really liked the 950HP carb over a 750 double pumper.

There are dozens of other combo's that will make 400+ rwhp and if you're willing to run race gas it's even easier. Personally I do all of mine to run on pump gas because with todays cam and head technology it's easy to make big power on pump gas. Obviously this engine will also need decent parts like crank and rods, rod bolts, etc. plus correct assembling methods. Add some nitrous down the road and you really have an animal.

Eric68
Feb 23rd, 04, 03:25 AM
I agree with Camcojb (especially on building a stroker) except that I would personally use a hair more compression -- even with pump gas. If you run aluminum heads 11.0:1'ish is very doable (and necessary IMO) with a large cam. While I think you could possibly do it it with a 350, a 383 will need less cam and will be a lot more driveable on the street.

Good cylinder heads is the key to making 400 @ the rear wheels. You'll need some heads that flow upwards of about 275 cfm to be able to hit your mark and you will want that flow with as small of a runner as you can -- probably about 210-215 cc's.

I would go straight to a solid roller cam although a solid FT will hold up better to street miles. Something in the 240-250* duration @ 050 range (intake) on a 108* LSA would be the ticket IMO.

Also, remember that 500HP from a 350 is not the same as 500 HP from a 383 or 406. The longer stroke engine will pull a lot more TQ down low which will help your ET's.

Just my opinion.

PS. Out of curiosity, what is your budget for this project? You seem to be stuck on that 350 block when it's not that expensive (relative to the rest of the parts you are going to need) to just go with a 400 or even aftermarket block.

Greg O
Feb 23rd, 04, 04:29 AM
RSz/28,

If money is not an issue as you said, call Bill Mitchel, Summitt or Shafirof and buy you a 500+ inch big block, complete. World has a 540 with 600 HP and 640 ft./lbs. for a cool $9695 that should fix you right up! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

67RS502
Feb 23rd, 04, 08:36 AM
If all you wanna run is around 11.0, and the car isnt too heavy then it wont
take a bunch of power. Why not concentrate on building a 350 that makes
around 500 "flywheel" HP, not too hard, which will put a 3200-3400lbs car
right around your 11.0s time, if the car is set up right. Make a realistic goal,
and shoot for it, there are other pump gas 350SB cars out there running
low 11 to high 10s, and it doesnt take 600hp to do it! :rolleyes:

czar
Feb 23rd, 04, 09:48 AM
i agree with others...if money is not an issue, go big block and get the mega-torque with it!!!! if that is not the route ya wanna go....then go w/power adders!

personally, i'd love the big block.....then add a little nitrous to it!!!

novaderrik
Feb 23rd, 04, 09:48 AM
why not call that place that sells old Winston Cup engines and see what they want for a "seasoned" engine that makes around 750 horses and will hold together for 3 hours at 9000 rpm? one of those bad dog SB2.2's would be pretty cool under the hood of pretty much anything.

mike 1978
Feb 23rd, 04, 10:09 AM
hey FAST.

my buddy built a 396" LT-1 this last summer.
12-1 ( thought it would run on pump gas)
alum lt-1 heads
custom hyd roller cam 240-246 @.050 112 LSA 640 lift
58 MM TB
long tubes 1-3/4

and rattled the rings right out of it with 93 premium.

took it back and dissambled, detionation all over the bearings. rebuilt it and ran it on the dyno with a dual plane( just to get a power #) and it made 525 HP at 5800 rpm.

So we put it back in the car and ran it while monitoring it with free scan and checking plugs for detionation. Yep it finally ran detionation free on pump gas AT 25 DEG. TOTAL TIMING. But it runs great on 100 octane.

The LT-1 is better, but not the cure all for dis obeying general engine practices.

this car will be in CHP soon.

Oh and it ran 11.80 on motor and 10.80 with a 150 shot.

DenRS
Feb 23rd, 04, 03:45 PM
My buddy Rich has a 350 with 537 hp(I think) at the rear wheels. He built the engine for drag racing and he was going to add a 200 n02 shot as well. I think Rich said his goal was, "to build a engine that will put his brother in the back seat without laying a hand on him." The car should be on the road this year. I believe he's running forged everything from the crank to pistons etc. He has a huge cam and is not running power brakes or steering. I know it wasn't cheap.

MoeSS396
Feb 23rd, 04, 04:03 PM
NASCAR, 358 cube from the guys that use all the used parts. About 10 grand later you have 650 horses with a solid flat tappet cam, and the best tech that money can buy. Should run 11's easily in a good chassis.

fast
Feb 23rd, 04, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by mike 1978:
hey FAST.

and rattled the rings right out of it with 93 premium.
it's called tuning
contact jim @ speed inc

have already built a 383 LT1 w/ 12.8:1 (gtp stage 4 heads, solid roller that makes your friends and mine look tiny which I'm sure eats a little of the compression) that runs just fine on 93 pump, it's a little hairy, but it's got 4k miles on, and a hell of a lot of um, cough, cough, racing (7k on a regular basis)

which heads was your friend using?

reverse cooling is a godsend to me, it makes that extra point of compression VERY usable
how else ya gonna see 10.4:1 cars with 10-12 psi of boost (no intercooler) live a reasonably long life?

it's all good

but if I had NO budget I'd do a 396 LT1 block w/ SB 2.2 heads and EFI
big inch LS6? (427?)
or a musi built EFI 632" (it's a 402 man, I swear)

fast
Feb 23rd, 04, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by mike 1978:
Oh and it ran 11.80 on motor and 10.80 with a 150 shot. are you kidding?
there were some big problems there somewhere

my stock heads/cam ran 11.13 on a 150!
with 3.23 gears!

fast
Feb 23rd, 04, 04:50 PM
me again!

hey Mike1978 - do you know Darren Nichols?
(I figure you prob'ly do) that firebird was evil (9s on the bottle, LT1 power!), any idea what he is doing to it now?

look for me @ us41 this spring
either the black/white '94 z28
or the 89 Turbo TA
graemlins/waving.gif

hugger_sixty_nine
Feb 23rd, 04, 08:32 PM
RSz/28


posted 22-02-2004 09:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok I understand what you guys are sayin. So would somewhere in the 400hp range to the wheels be more resonable for a 350? And if not whats a good power range for the 350 while keepin it a street/strip engine and not all out race. Glad to see that you have come to your senses a bit. I figured i'd chime in since nobody has really set the mark for you in here $ wise and I did not hear a budget response when asked. I don't know how many engines you have built, but I would say the numbers you initially talked about would have been very costly as others eluded to. To put that in perspective for you, 625 Crank HP might be 1.78 Ponies per Cubic Inch, but now you can envision that motor costing you an average of $75.00 per cubic inch to build that kind of power in a small block.

Are you still saying money is no concern?

Cause I can build 2 600HP Big Blocks for that price of 26K. I built a 7500.00 US motor for my car and the sim program (DD2000) states it should make in the area of 490HP with 447TQ. That should deliver about 350+ to my rear wheels with my altitude factored in. And that for a street car is very stout (solid bottom end, good heads,big cam, no vacuum for brakes). Sure you can build more, but when it comes to a 350 block there are limits before you get into the realm of a seasoned race block at 25K to 35K built.

A really decent street car can get into the 11's with a couple of the combos that were posted for you, but will also require a good setup with the Trans, Diff, Suspension and tires. An engine like this will require about 8K on average, trans can run another 2K-3K and same for the rear. Not many people actually say money is no object these days, but if that's your deal, then post your budget and we will show you how quick we could spend it. A true 400 RWHP should put you on the 11 Sec mark and will be a stout street car. The 500 Crank HP Range is tops for most small blocks and will shake like a radical pro street car. I would build a solid 450 HP and add some boost juice for when you need it. Just my 2 bits thrown in!

Everett#2390
Feb 24th, 04, 01:51 AM
Lots of good tips here. I'd buy a motor from the Engine Stores, comes with a guarantee and dyno'd already.

Place to look for NASCAR parts is www.musclemotorparts.com (http://www.musclemotorparts.com)

Why not build a Comp Elim SBC? 287 CID, pushes a 2400# car thru at 8.90. Idles at 3500-4K, tops out at 9500K, and runs on 112 octane. Uses molydisulfide grease for the top end, oil to the topside is restricted to reduce drag, sent to the crank where it will need it the most.

Maybe you should rethink your goal(s), or dig really deep to your toes in your pockets. Normal aspirated engine of this magnitude in SBC form will be expensive and high maintenance. However, anything is possible, 1.78 HP/CI.

Like others suggested, lose weight, go for 450-475 HP and it'll feel the same.

Just my thoughts, I'd either turbo it or belt driven s/charger.

RSz/28
Feb 24th, 04, 06:38 AM
The 69 RS I have originally came with a 350 thats why I really wanted to stick with the small block. Otherwise I'd go for a bigblock. Im not looking for anything extreme because this will not be an all out drag car but a street/strip car. I just don't want to joke around at the track thats why I wan't alot of power while keeping the car as streetable as possible.

john68camaro
Feb 24th, 04, 07:06 AM
A small block that runs mid 11's should not be too hard to obtain. You already have the block done 30 over. Get the eagle 383 rotating kit from Jegs for $900. Get a set of elelbrock rpm performer heads for $1000(or other fav. brand) Carb+ intake add about$500. Add $500 for a msd ignition. $200 for a cam kit. And maybe another $500+ for misc stuff. Thats $3600+ for a mid 11 sec. camaro. My friends camaro with these specs. with comp cams magnum 292 cam ran mid 11's on a 3.3* 10 bolt. and 11's is as fast as you can go on the track without upgrades of sorts. Roll bar ect...

Eric68
Feb 24th, 04, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by RSz/28:
The 69 RS I have originally came with a 350 thats why I really wanted to stick with the small block. Otherwise I'd go for a bigblock. Im not looking for anything extreme because this will not be an all out drag car but a street/strip car. I just don't want to joke around at the track thats why I wan't alot of power while keeping the car as streetable as possible. If you are not looking for anything extreme, just build a run-of-the-mill hot street 350 and be done with it. forget "rear wheel HP numbers" and Et's and build one that drives how you like it.

The only people that are "jokes" at the track are the ones who are worried too much about being a joke at the track and say something stupid about ETs and rear wheel HP. ;) If you are an honest guy that talks straight noone will laugh at you -- doesn't matter if you are running 6's or 16's. Have fun with it and build it for what you enjoy doing . . .

Good luck with your project

6D9
Feb 24th, 04, 08:26 AM
Sell the Camaro and by a Turbo Civic...j/k... :D

czar
Feb 24th, 04, 08:52 AM
i agree with eric 68, don't be too concerned about how you are percieved at the track....just have fun with it and build something streeable and hot. as you can tell, what you originally posted WAS indeed EXTREME! i say build a mild/hot smallblock that will be streetable then if cost is not object.....use a power adder to that....i'd use nitrous b/c its on demand....plus laughing gas is not expensive for your usage.

have fun!

novaderrik
Feb 24th, 04, 01:00 PM
check out page 76 of the April 04 issue of Car Craft- there is a 550 horse 350 with 10.2:1 compression in a 64 Chevelle that has Iron Eagle heads, a victor Jr intake with an 850 Demon, and a Comp solid roller cam that pushes the car to 11 second times at 117- plus he has a 175 nitrous system on it hat hasn't been used yet.
that combo seems pretty easy to replicate.

Drag Fabricator
Feb 24th, 04, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Eric68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RSz/28:
The 69 RS I have originally came with a 350 thats why I really wanted to stick with the small block. Otherwise I'd go for a bigblock. Im not looking for anything extreme because this will not be an all out drag car but a street/strip car. I just don't want to joke around at the track thats why I wan't alot of power while keeping the car as streetable as possible. If you are not looking for anything extreme, just build a run-of-the-mill hot street 350 and be done with it. forget "rear wheel HP numbers" and Et's and build one that drives how you like it.

The only people that are "jokes" at the track are the ones who are worried too much about being a joke at the track and say something stupid about ETs and rear wheel HP. ;) If you are an honest guy that talks straight noone will laugh at you -- doesn't matter if you are running 6's or 16's. Have fun with it and build it for what you enjoy doing . . .

Good luck with your project </font>[/QUOTE]Well said!

[ 02-24-2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Drag Fabricator ]

RSz/28
Feb 25th, 04, 10:58 AM
By extreme I mean Track only not close to being streetable.

Neil B
Feb 25th, 04, 07:28 PM
I've always been a fan of Westech's 'Gladiator' dyno mule. It's a 355ci ZZ4 short block with upgraded pistons (10:1), AFR 195 heads, Comp Solid Roller (254/260@.050 .583/.585 lift 110LS), Victor Jr, 850 Speed Demon, and 1 3/4 headers. 527hp @ 6,400rpm and 463 lb-ft @ 4,900rpm. Probably an $8K-$10K motor when it's all said and done. But that's 500hp at the crank, not the tires.

Hey RSZ - who does good machine/engine work in the Tampa area? I'm relatively new to Tampa, but I'm getting the itch to start a new project.

Mean_Gene3
Oct 3rd, 05, 12:45 AM
Im lookin to make 500 to the wheels so i know the motor will have to make over 500 to overcome drivetrain loss so ill be able to reach my goal of 500 to the wheels

I dont know how streetable this combo would be (probably not too street friendly) or even the numbers it produces at the rear wheels but you might want to take a look at this article from Car Craft.

It's called the ZZ520, you can find this article at:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/53080

Does anyone have any thoughts on this combo?