What are your thoughts on re-locating the upper ball joint to the bottom of the A-arm, maybe with a 1/4" or 3/8" spacer to have the effect of a tall ball joint?

TTFN
Mat

There's nothing to gain.

The suspension's pivot points are set by the spindle, not by where the ball joint attaches to the a-arm.

It's "X" inches from the center of the bottom ball to the center of the top ball, the a-arm can't change that, so the geometry won't change.

Sure it can.

Installing a longer studded upper ball-joint effectively raise's our front roll center b/c it increases the distance between both ball-joints.!

I installed Pro-Motorsports 1-15/16" tall spindle extenders and stock stud length upper ball-joints to raise mine.

I still have to see how well this works. (And I didn't do the G/M only b/c I want my car to remain stock is all, just me.)............

One thing I am thinking hard about doing and that is installing double turnbuckle upper A-arms like JimM has instead of my stock ones just to give my headers some more room up in there AND to more easily set the tire alignment stuff.

pdq67

Isn't the idea to lower the roll center? Is your mod for drag racing or corner carving? Where's my book?

You got me thinking Jim;

Moving the ball joint down will not change the geometry. I need a longer shaft on the ball joint to act like a taller spindle. I was hoping to do the G mod, but I want to relocate the bracket not just drill the holes, and right now don't really feel like tearing it all apart. I'll look into spindle extenders.

TTFN
Mat

I'm sorry if I'm getting carried away here, but did you read me Matt.

It took me a long time to figure this crap out and I know what's happening w/ moving/raising the upper ball-joint on our cars!

It helps to slope our upper ball-joint's IC such that our car's other IC switches from I think inside or tire to tire to way outside the tires side to side.

I would have to find the book to better explain it.. Sorry.

We need our upper A-arms to point down towards the S/F to raise our front roll center is what I am trying to say all the while trying to hold our lower A-arms parallel to the ground!!

Not the uppers pointing up to the S/F like they do now and the lowers not being as parallel to the ground as stock allow's them!!

And you want the front S/B to be parallel to the ground as best you can get it while the car is on the ground and to adjust/cut/rethread the link-bolts to do this is a real pain!!

Been there, done it.. And to my rearend's S/B link-bolts too!!!!

pdq67

Would you come out and do mine? Please?

The tall ball joints will do what you want Matt.

Moving the mounting point of a ball joint does nothing.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1107119#post1107119

The tall ball joints will do what you want Matt.

Moving the mounting point of a ball joint does nothing.
well, actually, putting the balljoint on the bottom of the upper control arm instead of the top will put the upper arm 3/8" (or however thick the mounting flanges are) farther up in it's arc, which would probably have a very slight and probably unmeasurable benefit.

Where's my book?


I would have to find the book to better explain it.. Sorry. pdq67
I can't find mine either!
http://cgi.ebay.com/How-to-Make-Your-Car-Handle-by-Fred-Puhn-1976_W0QQitemZ270344998890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_No nfiction_Book

It's all about pivot points. Moving the balljoint from above to below doesn't move the pivot point further from the bottom pivot. Changing to a longer stud ball joint or a taller spindle does. The G mod moves the inner pivot lower in relation to the ball joint efectively making the same change. In stock form as the upper control arm goes up the tire tilts out at the top increasing postive camber. In modified form the object is to get the top of the tire to tilt in as the upper control arm travels up.

Jeff

That's it, Fred Puhn's book.

I'd have to dig it out.

pdq67

Ok. now I'm looking for a tall ball joint. I thought a C-10 pick-up joint would work. but no luck. I just spent about 1/2 hr searching at Autozone with one that will work with a lot of modification. So does anybody else have ideas of a taller ball joint interchange? I know I can get the specialty ones, but I would just rather not.


thanks
Mat

Years ago I went to O'-Reilley's and asked the Parts Lady if I could look at all the A/B/F/G/X ball-joints they had in stock from like '65 to '80 and I thought that I found a tall one that would fit a 1st Gen. Car.

Please do this if you want to find a cheap stock application to save yourself some money.

I swear I wrote it's PN down and saved it somewhere, but where??

pdq67

Just thought I would thow a safety thought out there...

Wouldn't moving a stock upper balljoint from the top of the arm to the bottom with just four fairly small bolts to hold it on present a real safety hazard? It seems like when the suspension unloaded to full droop, there'd be an awful lot of stress (some tension, some bending, maybe even some shear) on those little bolts. There would be other weird loadings during travel too, I am sure.

I am all for taller balljoints installed in the original location, secured the original way (okay, I know the originals are riveted in, but you get the idea). Trying to just move a standard BJ underneath sounds like a safety nightmare.

It would need to go in from the bottom of the lower A-arm and lock in by the collar if not mistaken so it couldn't pull through or come loose installed on the top.

pdq67

Just thought I would thow a safety thought out there...

Wouldn't moving a stock upper balljoint from the top of the arm to the bottom with just four fairly small bolts to hold it on present a real safety hazard? It seems like when the suspension unloaded to full droop, there'd be an awful lot of stress (some tension, some bending, maybe even some shear) on those little bolts. There would be other weird loadings during travel too, I am sure.

I am all for taller balljoints installed in the original location, secured the original way (okay, I know the originals are riveted in, but you get the idea). Trying to just move a standard BJ underneath sounds like a safety nightmare.

Eric: Those thoughts were why I asked the original question, and Jim corrected me because changing mounting will not change the basic suspension geometry.. so...

Paul my friend:
" I swear I wrote it's PN down and saved it somewhere, but where??"


That is the question....;)


TTFN
Mat

taller ball joints will move the roll center also more angle in the upper control arm will move the roll center we have used a longer upper ball joint in our race cars part # k6136 with a 70 chevelle front end. we also bolt the ball joint to the bottom of the arm. the more angle in the a arm the lower the front roll center it does not matter if the inside mount is lower or the ball joint end is higher. you may have to recut the taper in the spindle to use the k 6136 taller ball joint.

Thanks Chuck.

The K6136 is a larger mounting flange and taper than the '69 so far the best I can find, but more work than I wanted.:(

I took apart a ball joint and found that it is designed to be loaded on the bottom part of the ball. By mounting it under the A arm, the bolts will be in pure tension with the entire suspension load being carried by them and more likely to break, so I will not do that for sure!.

TTFN
Mat

Hey Mat - The Howe extral tall upper ball joints aren't that expensive, I think around $80/ea. They are correctly engineered with the correct taper, and considering all, not such a bad deal. Only prob I can tell is that they don't work terribly well with the stock upper a-arm, as it doesn't allow for enough +caster. Still, a better perf improvement compared to the G-mod. Anyway, just my finding, and I'm as cheap a bastard as you'll find. Even if you could find a taller upper that works and fits, it won't likely be as tall as the Howe, and you'll be leaving something on the table.

Can you post a pic of that unassembled joint on here Matt? I have forgotten where the spring in there is at. It seems to me that the only time there is any load on that joint is when the suspension is in full droop (tires off ground). I don't think that happens too often even in "spirited" driving.

Jeff

Al; You are probably right. I'm not sure if I want to change the ball joints, or do the G mod. I'll probably set it aside right now and work another project. or pull it all apart, since when I was cleaning the lower control arms could stand to be re-blasted and painted, then see if I can get in to weld in the upper bracketry.

Jeff here is the exploded view. I think your are right because the load should go from the spindle through the lower joint and control arm to the spring and then to the frame?


http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w158/sscargo69/DSCN0233.jpg

TTFN
Mat

Just thought I would thow a safety thought out there...

Wouldn't moving a stock upper balljoint from the top of the arm to the bottom with just four fairly small bolts to hold it on present a real safety hazard? It seems like when the suspension unloaded to full droop, there'd be an awful lot of stress (some tension, some bending, maybe even some shear) on those little bolts. There would be other weird loadings during travel too, I am sure.

I am all for taller balljoints installed in the original location, secured the original way (okay, I know the originals are riveted in, but you get the idea). Trying to just move a standard BJ underneath sounds like a safety nightmare.

Putting the UBJ below the arm really doesn't help since all that matters is the location of the pivot points. The true uppper A arm angle is from inside pivot to center of upper balljoint rotation.

The cheapest solution is to use stock upper ball joints and lower the inner pivot point.
David

Wow I am really getting confused? I have heard about this tall joint and it is supposed to really work but then ya'll get me confused when you start saying do this or do that,tihs is my 1st car and I want to make it handel better were and which is the best band for the buck???

It is a drag racing mod...
It doesnt change geometry however it spreads the A arms apart more (vertically) so the mod allows the centerline of the spindle to be lower in relation to where it previously would have been when the upper A arm is down on its bumper (ie when the suspension is fully extended) thus allowing the front end to rise 3/8" more for better weight transfer in drag racing.

"Would you come out and do mine? Please? "

A plate of geoduck clam sliced and fried like pork tenderlions or a big bucket of Steamer Clams if I could get there and you got yourself a deal!!

He, He!! Be glad to help..

Oh, and at least a 6-pack of good cold beer!

pdq67