i may throw out the roller cam idea, if the costs add up too much.
first off, is there anything other then a cam,lifters, rockers, pushrods, springs, locks, and retainers that i'll need?
i've heard about rev kits do i need one? and what do they do?
would i need a stud girdle?
i'd like to just pump money into these "trick" setups but i dont want to set this engine build back so far that it'll be in the works for 2 years.

As suggested in the other thread, I would skip the roller if it's simply a street car. A solid flat tappet makes great power, can rev to the moon, and will last you longer than most of your other engine parts. Why spend $1000 on your valve train. If you are on a budget, you'll make more power by going with a solid flat tappet and spending the extra money in your heads.

-Joe

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79' Z28 4-spd- built 355, TRW 10:1 forged flat tops, WP SportsmanII heads, Crane Energizer 230/230 duration .480"/.480" lift, Edelbrock Victor Jr., Holley 750cfm, Dynomax headers, dual 3" flowmasters :) 3.73 Posi 10-bolt

You do not "have to" run a rev. kit or stud girdles, but you should (IMO). Rev kit does a couple things it allows you to rev a given (solid roller, never heard of running one on a hyd.) a little higher, cause of the added spring pressure. It also keeps the lifter/s from flying out of place if you ever were to break a valve spring or push rod. The stud girdle is a good idea with extreme spring pressures and/or high RPM's they help keep the valve train from flexing. Of course if you are going to run a roller cam, you will need guide plates and hardened push rods. Why bother to run a roller cam if you are not going to add roller rockers as well? Get out your catalogs and add these things up. You could buy a nice nitrous kit with the extra money you spent on the roller cam setup. Sure the rollers free up a little pwer and lower oil temps. slightly but I just don't think it's worth the expense.

Royce

Don't forget the bronze distributor gear. Most racing roller cams require this. If I had it to do over I think I would forget the roller and put in a good solit flat tappet cam. The roller is a pain in the butt. It also cost over twice as much as the flat tappet cam after I bought all the extra stuff that goes with it. I hate having to change the distributor gear every 1000 miles. It does sound real good and still pulls strong at 7000 RPMs. I didn't use a rev kit but I have a stud girdle because I also have aluminum heads and I don't trust the stud bosses.

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'69 RS/SS396 pro street
427/4spd/9"
Byars Performance
High Performance Drive Train Parts And Service
www.lubedealer.com/biggearhead (http://www.lubedealer.com/biggearhead)

[This message has been edited by big gear head (edited 11-22-2001).]

Using the comp "cs 280h-r10" (hyd roller) grind in a 10:1 383, SPII's a holley 780 on a dual plane and small tube headers through mufflers DD2k shows;

Roller: 157hp/413lb@2000 & 427hp@5500/462lb@4000

Hyd flat: 146hp/383lb@2000 & 381hp@5000/423lb@4000

Solid: 151hp/397lb@2000 & 402hp@5000&5500/442lb@4000

The spec's on this cam are 224/224@.050 .525/.225 lift and a 110 LSA. I chose this combo as I believe I have the correct cam and head data.

You can see there is some variation with the roller coming out to the plus here! This isn't totally fair to the solid as the profiles I pointed out in the other thread ( www.camaros.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002993.html (http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/002993.html) )make power much higher up in the rpm than this one!! I think the numbers are dramatic from hyd flat to hyd roller though.

IMO you don't need roller rockers to benifit from a roller cam (stamped steel long slots are fine) and you surely don't need the rev limiter and girdle they all have a purpose but not @ 5500rpm!! Comp told me with this cam not to run a brass dist gear and recomended only a stock GM gear. Said if I had an MSD or other after market dist to replace the gear it came with, with a GM stocker.... All pushrods are hardened by the way. You're replacing them because you need a different length not stronger ones...

We're all opinionated on this stuff and this is all good!! I don't think the cost diff would afford that NO2 system unless you already have the internals to support the boost!

Don't forget the cam button with the roller it's about $6 Now the decision is still, is the roller worth the $300+- more than the flat tappet.

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_03.jpg), the '96 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_02.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

[This message has been edited by DjD (edited 11-21-2001).]

ahh, the hell with it, i think it'll be more problems then its worth. if i had the money to throw at it, i would but i dont.
well, thanks for straightening out those few questions.
i'm not considering nitrous, its too risky in my case. i'll be using a 2-bolt main block and cast crank, so i dont think it would hold up.
a 250 shot during the launch would probably get my car up on the rear wheels though, and that would be cool, but it's not worth it.
maybe in a few years after i can afford a Dart block, a lunati crank, and H-beam manley rods.

Dennis, that was my point if you are not going to rev it above 5500 (as you said), then why bother with a solid roller? I don't know anyone that runs a solid roller that doesn't see at least 7000RPM. That is what they are designed for. I agree if you don't plan on seeing over 5500 you don't need a rev kit (though it is extra insurance) or stud girdles. Like I said no need for a solid roller if you are not going to spin the engine above 5500. I take it you got those HP and torque numbers from desk top dyno or something like that? I would like to see what the real world difference is at the strip. I would be willing to bet that it wouldn't be as noticable as most people think. I am not just guessing on that one I have been there and done it. For the money there are much better buys than a roller cam (IMO). This will depend on what you are trying to acomplish. This is another of those nobody is right or wrong items, just depends on what you want. If you buy a "street" roller, they have a cast gear on them so you don't have to run a soft distributor gear. I also didn't say you "had" to run roller rockers with a roller cam, but ask your manufacturer and see what they suggest. The point I was making (or trying to) was that it is an expensive item and there are easier/cheaper (and more reliable) ways to make HP.

Royce

I personally have recently become a fan of HYDRA-ROLLERS.
In rev limited application`s they can be made to run very well.Case in point... we just ran a big hydra-roller in a motor i built for my bud`s 69 camaro big 2.25 valves and the thing was going over at 6500 rpm.too much IMO. so we swapped 3.73`s in and went back..ran 10.55 ET @ 129mph(6000-6100rpm) The motor sounds as quiet(mechanically)... as a lexus.
Again this combo IMO is REV limited...Yes ..this motor would run quicker with a more radical solid roller in it but at what expense???...I firmly believe, as this car has yet to be sorted out,.. that with cooler air coming and some finessing 10.30`s at 132mph thereabout`s can be had. And we never have to lift the valve covers and the car has never seen a trailor.

I think AFR designed the rev kit for HYDA-rollers to had some extra spring pressure with out collapsing the hyd lifter.allowing some more rev`s

DjD`s post showes what a HYDRA-Roller is capable of when compared to it`s cousins of like numbers.
If cost where no object i personally believe that there would a lot more guys waving the HYDRA-ROLLER banner!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

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68 biscayne 4060lbs
468 iron oval port 10.25-1 TH400 Flowmasters&radials
11.85 ET @ 113.7 MPH

Royce the DD2000 just helps to put things into perspective. You're right about real life, it's the proof in the pudding.

There's a place for all this stuff and you can see by CamaroNOTcamero's response it can be overwhelming! Manuf's want to sell you their product and if the use of it provides no adverse effects they feel it's ok to sell it to you. Roller rockers and MSD boxes have a place but they tend to be the first things a guy goes out and puts on his SBC. We all want most bang for the buck and from what I've seen a hyd roller can wake up a street mill nicely.



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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_03.jpg), the '96 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/fine69_02.jpg) & the club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"

Well as usual we all kind of agree, it all depends on how you look at it. I agree a hyd. roller has great advantages, even more so in the under 6000RPM range. I think the hyd. roller lifters are also more durable than the solids I've seen (plus much less spring pressure is needed). No valve lashing and silent operation. If I were to run a roller again on the street it would be a hyd. roller. I am just set up to run a little more RPM's than the hyd. rollers like.
BigRed, I agree with you too. All depends on what you are set up for. With the torque of your buddies big block there really is no need to spin it to the moon (I think a lot of guys would go quicker and faster with less gear).

Royce

I have a hydraulic roller in my engine. No problems after about 7,500 miles on the rebuild. This engine started out as a ZZ3 crate motor and I had about 20,000 miles on it before the rebuild.

DJD, check the instructions to your dyno software. I have Dyno 2000 and they recommend using the "solid lifter" setting when testing hydraulic rollers because the opening ramps on a hydraulic roller cam are more similar to a solid lifter/flat tappet cam than a solid lifter/roller cam. Apparently, hydraulic lifters can't take the more aggressive opening rate used on solid roller cams.

The reason you can use the stock GM distributor gear with Comp Cams is that their hydraulic roller cams are cast iron like flat tappet cams, not billet steel like stock GM cams. I was not very happy when I found this out, as the cam was already in the fully assembled engine. If GM spends the $$ for a billet steel cam, I believe it's necessary - probably for durability.

AFR sells a "Hyrda-Rev" kit for use on hydraulic roller cams. I believe it is supposed to push the redline to 6,500 RPMs. Basically, the kit fixes a spring between the bottom of the head and the body of the lifter. The push rod runs thru the middle of the spring. The added pressure is not transmitted to the hydraulic mechanism - it's carried by the body of the lifter. Thus, you get the benefit of the added spring pressure withou having to worry about collapsing the lifter.

Personally, I see a benefit of being rev limited - it forces you to build a motor that has a more streetable power curve. Additionally, you can save $$ by not having to buy the high dollar valve train parts because you don't need them under 6,000 RPMs.

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Pearl blue & white 69 Camaro with supercharged 350, Tremec TKO, and 3.73 12-bolt

See my website updated 4/16/01 at:

www.geocities.com/gheatly (http://www.geocities.com/gheatly)