Ok if you dont remember my last post was the question on the mid 11 second pump gas 355 motor i wanted to build. Going in my 3300lb 73 Nova. Recently i ran across an Erson F cam Solid grind, its a 298/306, 260/268 @ .050, .562 lift, and a 108 l/c. How does that sound with 11:1 comp {it gives me a 7.95 DCR}, and some properly ported 200cc aluminum heads {i have decided to go with the 200's since its going to be street driven more than occasionally} remember this is going in a stick car 5 speed with 3.27 first gear and what ever rear gears accomodate, currently 4.11} What do you think? The cam description reads: 11-12:1 comp, modified steel or aluminum heads, Light to moderate chassis, 4000-7000 rpm but erson allways gives a narrow power band so im sure it makes a little power below 4000. Does that still sound too big? Plus since im going with a 200cc aluminum head im trying to decide between TFS, Canfield, or Pro Topline. Im going to buy them then have them ported to suit the combination,{any guesses on what the porting will cost}, And top it off with my Weiand Team G and a 750 mighty demon, What are your thoughts? Good? Bad? Thanks in advance

RPM-----------3000----3500----4000----4500----5000----5500----6000----6500----7000----7500
Brake_Tq------242-----285-----321-----414-----465-----472-----463-----443-----408-----365
Brake_HP------138-----190-----244-----354-----443-----495-----529-----548-----543-----522
Exh_Pres------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0------.0
Int_Vacuum----.1------.2------.3------.6------.9------1.2-----1.4-----1.7-----1.8-----2.0
Vol_Eff_%-----64.3----71.8----78.3----93.6----103.7---107.1---107.9---107.1---105.4---102.5
Actual_CFM----233-----288-----347-----477-----589-----668-----731-----782-----824-----856
Fuel_Flow-----85.1----105-----127-----174-----215-----244-----267-----286-----301-----313
A/F_Mix_Qal---93.9----98.0----99.9----100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0
BSFC----------.615----.554----.519----.492----.486----.494----.505----.521----.554----.600
BSAC----------7.713---6.952---6.506---6.168---6.098---6.195---6.334---6.541---6.952---7.521
Friction_HP---33------44------56------71------90------112-----135-----162-----205-----253
Mach_#--------.183----.213----.244----.274----.305----.335----.366----.396----.427----.457
Piston_Spd----1740----2030----2320----2610----2900----3190----3480----3770----4060----4350
Piston_Gs-----581-----790-----1032----1306----1613----1952----2323----2726----3161----3629
Overlap_%VE---7.7-----5.6-----2.1-----5.4-----5.8-----5.8-----5.4-----4.9-----4.4-----3.6
Int_AvgVel----142-----166-----190-----213-----237-----261-----284-----308-----332-----355
In_InertiaPrs-.1------.6------1.5-----2.6-----3.5-----3.9-----4.1-----4.0-----3.7-----3.4
In_ResTunPrs--0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0
Ex_AvgVel-----154-----179-----205-----231-----256-----282-----308-----333-----359-----384
ExTun_Prs------1.8-----.8------.2------1.2-----2.1-----2.7-----2.5-----2.2-----1.9-----1.6
Lifter_Pump_UpNone----None----None----None----None----None----None----None----None----None
Spark_Adv-----34------36------37------36------36------36------37------38------39------40

Has you going 10.57 @ 127.61 in a 3300# car.

One of a kind....what kind of system do you use to calculate your numbers? Desktop dyno? Somthing else? do you feel those are more optimistic numbers or more realistic? 10.57@123 is friggen fast man. Let me know, thanks

Engine Analyzler, like Desktop Dyno, is usually a bit optimistic. EA is much more accurate, but I feel the Drag Analyzer is a good tuning tool, but not realistic when predicted ETs..

The program is EA3.0. I like it bcause you can input a lot more data and you can specify the range of rpm to test. For your engine, I used a set of AFR 210 heads and a custom exhaust to get the results. As far as the e.t. goes, I don't think it's very far off, depending on your ability to make the car hook. The program actually thinks we could go 10.20's in a race car. Here's the analysis:

Comparison of this vehicle's performance to a typical race vehicle:

This Veh Typ Veh Advantage *

60 foot (sec) ----------1.54-------- 1.41------ -.13 sec
660 foot (1/8 mile)---- 6.74 ------ 6.54 ------ -.20 sec
1320 foot (1/4 mile)---10.55 ----- 10.26 ----- -.29 sec
1320 foot MPH ------- 128.67 ----129.25 ---- -.58 MPH

* Advantage of This Vehicle over the Typical Vehicle

Look at some of the NHRA stock records, these guys aren't making anywhere near 550 hp and are running 10's. There's an interesting article at http://www.motortecmag.com that shows the buildup of a 404 fwhp 66 Nova that ran 11-teens @ 118, and then held the G/S the record at 10.80.
I was reading the teardown of Joe Sherman's PHR engine, http://www.enginemasters.com/teardowns.shtml , and recreated it in EA3.0 with the results as follows:

RPM-----------2500----3000----3500----4000----4500----5000----5500----6000----6500
Brake_Tq------228-----356-----419-----461-----494-----519-----527-----516-----487
Brake_HP------108-----203-----279-----351-----423-----494-----552-----589-----603
Exh_Pres------0.0-----0.0-----.1------.1------.1------.2------.2------.3------.3
Int_Vacuum----.1------.1------.2------.3------.5------.7------.9------1.0-----1.1
Vol_Eff_%-----66.0----80.3----88.6----95.8----103.1---109.0---111.9---111.4---109.2
Actual_CFM----188-----277-----355-----438-----531-----624-----704-----764-----811
Fuel_Flow-----68.6----101-----130-----160-----194-----228-----257-----279-----296
A/F_Mix_Qal---69.5----91.9----97.6----99.6----100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0---100.0
BSFC----------.633----.497----.465----.456----.458----.462----.466----.474----.491
BSAC----------7.937---6.234---5.830---5.724---5.748---5.793---5.849---5.942---6.161
Friction_HP---19------26------35------45------59------75------92------112-----139
Mach_#--------.144----.173----.202----.231----.260----.288----.317----.346----.375
Piston_Spd----1484----1781----2078----2375----2672----2968----3265----3562----3859
Piston_Gs-----410-----590-----804-----1050----1329----1640----1985----2362----2772
Overlap_%VE----1.7----3.9-----3.7-----3.2-----3.4-----3.9-----3.9-----3.4-----2.9
Int_AvgVel----121-----145-----169-----193-----217-----241-----265-----289-----313
In_InertiaPrs-.2------.8------1.6-----2.5-----3.5-----4.3-----4.6-----4.5-----4.3
In_ResTunPrs--0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0-----0.0
Ex_AvgVel-----148-----178-----208-----237-----267-----297-----326-----356-----386
ExTun_Prs-----.2-------.6------.8------.8------1.2-----2.0-----2.6-----2.5-----2.2
Lifter_Pump_UpNone----None----None----None----None----None----None----None----None
Spark_Adv-----37------36------31------30------29------29------32------37------39

Average torque - 445#ft
Average power - 400 hp

I think that is a huge cam for the street and I really don't like Erson (a Supershops brand for years). I'd guess it would idle about 1200 RPM, maybe more. Definately would not be fun to drive on the street, but those are MY tastes.

11:1 compression + 290* cam = bigger heads. Its nice that we've finally convinced you to run a smaller runner, but everything needs to match. Your cam selection [as onavakind67's EA3.0 data suggests] will have a power band that really doesn't pick up until 4000-4500 RPM and runs to 7500. If that's the case you might as well use heads that will be soft on the bottom end too because smaller heads won't be enough to make up for the cam's lack of TQ --- if you have good port work done that will suffice IMO but expect to pay $400-$800 for a good reputable porter to do his thing. A pair of 215cc runners with a home pocket-port might do just as well (clean up the area 1" under the seat, I can send pics of mine if you want).

Here's a cam suggestion if you are going to run 11:1 compression and pump gas.

Comp XS290S-10 #12-679-5: 290*/296* advertised, 252*/260* @ .050" lift, .540"/.558" lift, 110* LSA, 106* ICL. DCR with 11.0:1 static = 8.36:1 (perfect for aluminum heads on 93 octane IMO)
Heads - AFR 215s or Canfield 215's with light pocket port and milled to 58cc's (for 11:1 with flat tops). power band will be 3500 - 7000/7500 RPM and it should idle at about 1000 RPM.

Or if you want to stay with lower 10:1 static compression here's another possibility:

Comp XS282S-10 #12-678-4: 282*/288* advertised, 244*/252* @ .050 lift, .520"/.540" lift, 110* LSA, 106* ICL. DCR with 10.3:1 = 8.06:1. Heads - AFR 195's, Trick Flow 195's, Pro Topline 200's with mild pocket port 64cc chambers. power band will be 3000 - 6500/6800 RPM and it should idle at about 900 RPM.

I don't know whether that Erson is hydraulic or solid, but if you are considering running a hydraulic, DON'T if you plan on 7000 RPM! IMO hydraulic FT lifters start to have problems over 6000 RPM (they pump up, float, etc) and even the best hydraulic FT are DONE by 7000 RPM. Even if you manage to run them to 7000+ R's a solid FT will be kicking the hydraulic FT cam's butt by 6500 R's IMO.

The Canfield 195`s will be all you need.
Whatever you go with though don`t go over 200cc runners with that small of a motor.

If you can, get them bare and put quality parts on them. There`s power to be had even in the valve selection.

The 750 demon may be too big with that 355 IMO.
Torque is going to be iffy.
Use a dual plane, keep small tube heades on it too,that will help some.

Cam wise don`t go too big.
Ultradyne: 280 adv 247@.050 .525 108 single pattern with the Can`s would work just fine IMHO.

Check the link below, and go to the album. I have some photos of Canfield heads, they started as the 197cc size, got them back in the mid '90's when they first were out. 305 cfm @ .700", 28", with only a 210cc runner size (after porting) and a small cross-sectional area as well. This is what I would do on a 355", especially if street driven. These heads were intended to be used on a 341" race motor, with a 288*/294* @ .050", 736"/.682" cam, and a 7" converter with a 7000 RPM stall speed. I would stay away from a large intake runner and do not go too large in the intake manifold department either. It is far better to start too small and then port, as compared to figuring out how to deal with no low-speed torque.

Its a solid cam. I wouldnt put a hydraulic in this kind of motor. I wont ever buy a comp cam, got my own personal reasons. But thanks for the suggestion. I guess my problem is im trying to find a happy median between a great daily driver and a mid 11 second street monster. And it seems like its either 1 or the other, not alot of room for middle ground performance petential unless i go with more cubes, but i cant. Oh well ill figure it out. Thanks for the responses guys, and Oldani ill probably be calling you this weekend.

Originally posted by Novaguy73:
I guess my problem is im trying to find a happy median between a great daily driver and a mid 11 second street monster. And it seems like its either 1 or the other, not alot of room for middle ground performance petential unless i go with more cubes, but i cant. Why not go with more cubes? It's the easiest way to do it. My Nova isn't a 'monster', instead it's very mild, quiet, gets good mileage, goes anywhere at anytime and runs 11.70's @ 117.

Heres why i cant....I originally had a 350 with a 4 bolt main hi nickel block etc last year. Had a BRAND NEW valve drop and crack a cylinder and take out a rod and piston so i was going to have the block sleeved and change the pistons and get a new rod. Well i bought my .030 over srp's. and then i figured well, if im going to get good pistons i may as well get rods so i got 4340 Eagle H beams, Well by that time i ran across a great deal on 4340 Eagle cranks so i got one. Then i ran across a 10/20 block for dirt cheap and got that because i figured if im going to all this trouble to get good bottom end parts then i may as well have a good block with no sleeve. So basically it started as a simple job and ended up a stout bottom end, now i have these parts and theres no returning them so 355 it has to be. Plus 400's tend to over heat and have weaker main webbings so im not big on those and for me if i have a 3.75 stroke i dont see why someone wouldnt want the bigger bore to match, sorry not trying to offend but thats just how i think. Nick

I'm glad I'm not the only person seeing the old addage of going broke saving money. Sounds like a good engine. You might end up figuring a possible carb problem but it's the cam reaching it's optimum gulping gas range where it runs from 3-7K real quick. Good luck.

OK, if you won't buy a Comp Cam, what brand do you want? Whatever you do, just keep the advertised duration to around 290* on the intake side with 11:1 compression and in the low 280's with 10:1 compression.

Then working around the 280* or 290* advertised intake duration, look at the .050" duration numbers and .200" duration numbers and squeeze as much "area under the curve" as you can. In other words, get a cam with as much duration @ .050" lift and .200" lift as you can that still has a fairly short advertised duration. This is what will make your engine liveable on the street while still flowing enough to make the big power up top that you are looking for.

Here's a link to Crane, they have some pretty agressive solid cams http://www.cranecams.com/master/apps/chevy22.htm

The one I like for 10.3:1 compression is 280/288 advertised, 244/252 @ 050 lift, .518"/.536" lift, on a 106 LSA.

The one I like for 11:1 compression is 285/295 advertised, 250/260 @ 050 lift, .533/.555 lift, 106 LSA.

Both these cams are beyond what I personally would ever drive on the street (especially the second cam), but you seem bent on a huge cam. So although these are too radical for my tastes maybe you would like their "lack of street manners" --- both cams should work pretty decent from a performance standpoint with your very low final drive ratio in 1st gear.

Keep in mind the 106 LSA will make your engine idle like a Pro-stocker and have a narrower RPM band, but great peak TQ and HP numbers. I think the narrower RPM band would be just fine with your 5 speed trans, you could keep it in that sweet spot pretty well.

Nick, if you did call Comp, I have a pal that works there, used to be from Iowa. Ask for Chris Padgett. He worked at Lunati and bailed when Holley ate them up. He is pretty sharp, tell him I sent you! I should be home all weekend, trying to get the wife's '95 Sentra running.....came home from a 4-day business trip to Colorado to find the Sentra won't start, and the beater Olds had a frozen battery...the wife had a fun time on Tuesday getting rides from everyone to get to school for her conferences, etc., she teaches in CF, life sucks, and I hate winter more each year! smile.gif

i was strolling through ultradynes website a while back and talked to harold on the phone and he recommended his 292/301 duration, 259/267 @.050, .551/.551 lift and 110 l/s. Calls it a daily driver cam for a 4 speed 350. 3200-7600 is the power band, wich i thought was very wide, i believe he said it has a very broad torque curve. This seems like the ticket for me, low 290's for adv. duration, and alot at .050, Now since im going to go with the 200cc head {wich harold also recommended} am i looking at some major port work to be done or just a little clean up and bowl work to get the full potential out of the combo? What do you think?

I like it for the most part. Its still big @ 050 for my tastes, but with the 292 adv duration I think it would work with 11:1 compression. IMO the more squeeze you put to it the better low end and idle it will have IMO.

My Comp 294s is a lot tamer than the Ultradyne (248* @ 050 and that is probably overstated by a couple degrees) and it idles in my 383 at 900 in gear. Its rough. Added a vac can for power brakes. It does make excellent power from 3000 - 6500 RPM.

As for the heads, which ones are you going to run? Depends on what the ports look like on the heads you buy. If they already have very clean ports then maybe justr a little clean up. If they have jagged edges and casting imperfections then maybe more serious work would be in order. I wouldn't port just for the sake of porting, look at the heads first (preferrably before you buy) and see if you can tell what needs to be done, if anything. I wouldn't port 200cc heads to make them bigger, port them to fix any casting flaws --- this will help flow and performance.

For example - A friend of mine just bought some Pro Topline 200cc heads for his 327 (too much head IMO, but he will eventually put them on a 383). We bought them bare and looked at them side-by-side with bare 200cc Dart Pro 1's. The Pro Toplines were already bowl blended and the ports were darn near perfect out of the box, I just cleaned a little casting flash off the guides and they were done. If he had bought the Darts, I would have spent hours cutting down the valve guides and blending the bowls, there was a lot more to improve on with the Darts.

well i have it down to the pro toplines or the canfields. Both flow very well according to their websites and both are reasonably priced, The canfields really cought my eye because the price bare with CNC chambers was $700, but im worried about them not having helicoils. It just kind of bugs me.

Novaguy..We`ve had no issues with the Canfield heads. Helicoils really shouldn`t be a reason to not get them.

And seriously consider that Ultradyne cam I posted earlier.
If you want a little more and yet still be smaller than Harolds recomendation you could use this one:
288 adv. 255 @ .050 .540 cam on a 108 single pattern, would be pretty stout too.

They both have good .200 #`s too, 159 and 166 respectivly.

Either cam will work good with that set up with the Canfields.

Novaguy,

Regarding the Pro Toplines. (BTW have never used Canfields so I can't say much about them). The ports are very nice looking. Same with the chambers, very nice looking. But I would caution you about the following:

1. the ProToplines we put together had spring pockets that varied in depth by as much as .065" from valve to valve and head to head. I used a wide variety of shims setting the springs up to the correct installed height.

2. The intake ports are tall and narrow and are similar to a 23* high port head. A standard Felpro #1205 intake gasket doesn't fit worth a crap (too short and too wide). To do it right you should get a tall / narrow gasket to fit and then match port the intake. That could be a fair amount of grinding on a Vic Jr manifold.

3. Plug access on the straight plugs heads is miserable with Hooker 1-5/8" Comp (not Supercomp) headers. Especially cylinders #3 and #5. Other headers might fit better or shortie plugs would be a big help. The ProTopline angle plug heads might actually be easier than the straight plug heads with teh Hooker headers.

Other than that they looked like they were very good castings. I can see why the flow good numbers, port design and workmanship seems to be very good. Just be prepared for a few watch outs when installing them.

ps. I wouldn't worry about helicoils either. My Trick Flows (also very good heads with NO fitment problems and good flow) have held up through several tear downs. You can always put a helicoil in to repair damaged aluminum threads, but what do you do if a helicoil gets screwed up?

yep, eric is right on. i run pro action heads (pro topline, whatever) on my 406, and they perform killer. actually outflowed the advertised numbers on my buddys' flow bench. and craftsmanship is very nice as well. with that said, eric is right about having to fiddle with installed height, mine were the same way, but really not a major issue, just took some time. and also as eric said the port design is taller than a 1205, closer to a 1206 on my 220's, but width wise close to the same as 1205. i actually kind of like the idea that the port is more their design than a standard one. when i get my new manifold this season i'm just going with the gasket they reccomend, its their part number, so probably a specific gasket. all in all worth every bit of figuring for the performance i get from them. and as for the canfields, i have never run them, but i know a few ford guys that have, and they love the heck out of them, i'm sure its the same for the chevy's. good luck, hope that helps graemlins/thumbsup.gif