Hello, first time poster and first time possible owner of a Camaro. Love the late gen GM muscle cars and I've wanted one since high school when at the time I drove what is normally referred to as a "rice-rocket".

So, here's my dilemma:

I'm looking to buy a Z-28 t-top with the following:

fully loaded Z-28, 18" Boyd Coddington wheels, Ram Air Hood, SLP headers and 3" exhaust. Non smoker, adult owned, well maintained always serviced with Mobile One. Currently under extended warranty. Power seat, windows, T-top, six speed.

It has 35,600 miles roughly and is in excellent condition.

Here's a transcript of his last e-mail to me:

"This car is a clean performance machine and I don't want someone taking off with it to hot rod around or worse yet loosing control and wrecking the vehicle. I can tell you now the only thing a mechanic will find is that the check engine light is on because with the SLP headers and 3" exhaust modification there are no catalytic converters so the O2 sensors set off the light. I had this verified when I bought the care and saw no reason to change the sensor(s) when they. As far as price I am not giving the car away if you think you can get a car like this for $10K good luck, I am only selling it because I don't drive it much and want my garage space back. If you are not willing to pay $13K for the car I wish you good luck in your search for a car."

So.....
The seller is asking for $13,500.
The KBB value is around $9,500.

Is this car, based on the expertise of you guys here, worth that much?
If not, how much should I haggle him down to if he is willing to go lower?

If not, I'll gladly buy it at that price, I'm just looking to not get screwed. Thank you.

Hello, first time poster and first time possible owner of a Camaro. Love the late gen GM muscle cars and I've wanted one since high school when at the time I drove what is normally referred to as a "rice-rocket".

So, here's my dilemma:

I'm looking to buy a Z-28 t-top with the following:

fully loaded Z-28, 18" Boyd Coddington wheels, Ram Air Hood, SLP headers and 3" exhaust. Non smoker, adult owned, well maintained always serviced with Mobile One. Currently under extended warranty. Power seat, windows, T-top, six speed.

It has 35,600 miles roughly and is in excellent condition.

Here's a transcript of his last e-mail to me:

"This car is a clean performance machine and I don't want someone taking off with it to hot rod around or worse yet loosing control and wrecking the vehicle. I can tell you now the only thing a mechanic will find is that the check engine light is on because with the SLP headers and 3" exhaust modification there are no catalytic converters so the O2 sensors set off the light. I had this verified when I bought the care and saw no reason to change the sensor(s) when they. As far as price I am not giving the car away if you think you can get a car like this for $10K good luck, I am only selling it because I don't drive it much and want my garage space back. If you are not willing to pay $13K for the car I wish you good luck in your search for a car."

So.....
The seller is asking for $13,500.
The KBB value is around $9,500.

Is this car, based on the expertise of you guys here, worth that much?
If not, how much should I haggle him down to if he is willing to go lower?

If not, I'll gladly buy it at that price, I'm just looking to not get screwed. Thank you.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/olp/images/misc/progress.gif

The low mileage is tempting but removing the catalytic converter has altered the smog equipment causing the check engine light. Who knows what adjustments the computer is making to keep the engine running decently and what those changes might be doing to the engine. Both the LT1 and LS1 are designed around the smog equipment and reach their best performance with everything in place and functioning properly. Headers, cams and other mods can all be done without removing the cat or having computer errors being reported...

What year is the car? They made 4th gens from '93 -'02 with 2 completly different V8 drivetrains, pre-98 is the LT1 and 98 on is the LS1. That would also play a big role in the pricing of this car.

What year?

If the check engine light is on because of the headers, y-pipe, no cats and no rear O2's then the previous owner most likely never had it tuned for the headers either and you would want to do that. They can tune out the rear O2's at that point in time and adjust the fuel as well. So add that cost to your purchase price. What year is the car? The add on wheels and hood may look nice but don't add a lot of value for most people unless you really like the look of it. The miles are decently low so that add some value as well as the 6 speed. Don't look at KBB value for a car like this since it has been modified. I'd probably be willing to pay $10-11.5K for it. If the car is a real SS it would bump up the price range. But finding clean 4th gen cars with 6 speed and not abused is getting tougher so some people will jump on something if they've been looking for a while.

They also sell O2 simulators (like a dummy o2 sensor) for those who put on high flow cats or remove them all together. Its another option instead of having your car reprogrammed. You could probably find one a little cheaper, but that sounds like a nice car and the miles are very low. I just checked craigs list and someone around me had a beautiful black 02 SS with a few mods going for 20g's. I say the condition of the car has more to do with the price than the model year. Most 94-95 z28's or v6 camaros are going for 4-5g's with 100k or more on the clock.

It is a 2002 Z-28.

I asked one of my co-workers about it and he said the same thing about the O2 sensor most likely being due to the headers.
I got a mechanic who can check it out during my test drive so I'm not too worried, but if I need to fix something I'd rather know off the bat, so based on your conjectures I will be asking those sorts of questions.

The owner won't budge from $13K.
Co-worker checked NADA and it says it is worth $12.7K
Cosmetically it is in pristine condition. Not noticeable dings or scratches when I zoom in on the pics. Hoping to see it in person soon.

So I guess going by that standard it is not a bad price. I'm still iffy on the buy. I've always wanted one these cars and due to an accident, not my fault of course, I've now got the chance at one, however, it would become my daily driver. I live on an Air Force base so I don't even drive to work, but around town I do.

Gas mileage-wise, I don't care especially because it always comes down to how you drive it. If I'm feeling like having fun, I can, if I want to drive conservatively, I can with this car.

Any advice?



Thank you all!!!

I don't like the sellers tone when he's telling you it's his baby and he's going to be picky about who he sells it to. He says it was the way it is when he got it and he never bothered to fix the check engine light issue. That would drive most guys that really care about their cars nuts! How long has he had the car and why is he selling it if it's so special to him? I think this seller paid big for his car and is trying to keep his losses down. I would thing a modded 2002 would be in the $10k - $11k range. An SS in all stock form maybe $13k - $15k... the market is down right now so the buyer is at a big advantage.

Interested in a ragtop?

http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=30936&cat=17

One near you... http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/ctd/1138095733.html
another just to compare... http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/ctd/1115032198.html

Check Craigslist in the central TX area. I bought a decent '01 Z28/4A last month in Dallas off craigslist for almost half that price. You'll see a lot of POS cars, but there was a guy selling a beautiful '02 Z w/ AT for $10K with about 60-70K miles. These newer cars can run to 200K miles with regular maintenance and run like a raped ape to boot. A '69 body running an LS3 or LS6 would be an incredible combo; great classic looks, unbelievable power, and reliablility to boot. Wait a minute; that sounds just like the 2010 Camaro!!!! :beers: :thumbsup:

My one son bought a 99 Z28 2 years ago its was a LS1 w/6spd 90k miles with some minor mods done to it. He picked it up for $6500.00 I think he did real good on that one.

2002's bring more money than the rest. I guess because they are newer and it was the last year of that generation. With that said that is a steep price for a Z28. If it was an SS then it might be worth it since they are rarer.

I think the prices will start dropping once the new camaros start showing up in numbers, provided GM hangs around long enough.

I've seen a pristine low mile 4th gen F-body. No rust no probs. It went for 15k, was an 00 WS6 M6 T-Top with 19k.

If I really wanted the car,and it was "all that", I'd lay 120 $100 bills on the hood and see what happens.:thumbsup:

Well folks after much speculation and taking all your advice into consideration, I am the proud owner of a 2002 Chevy Z-28 Camaro.

I bought it for $13K , and here is the reason why:

-Extremely low mileage, 35,500
-Car is pristine, 1 scratch, that is all, just one scratch on the car's body
-garage kept prior to buying
-SICK rims on it
-SLP headers, SLP exhaust
-aftermarket intake, loud as hell
-Ram air hood
-35th Anniversary edition Camaro

Finally, the owner was straightforward no BS kind of guy, kept awesome records of the car, and the NADA priced it at $12.7K. And that is not considering the badass rims and some of the other aftermarket stuff done to it.

All in all I was told I got a good deal on it. So I just want to say thank you all for the advice, much appreciated, I learned a lot buying this car.
I hope I can learn a lot by driving it and owning it. This is my first muscle car and I am definitely won over. I will probably never own a foreign sports car again.
Honda for the gas mileage, Camaro for the fun only a muscle car can bring to your life.

Thanks again.

If the mods were done correctly and the rear gear ratio is still OE, you should be pleasantly surprised by the highway fuel mileage. The double OD of the T56 6-speed makes mid to upper 20s MPG pretty common.

Well folks after much speculation and taking all your advice into consideration, I am the proud owner of a 2002 Chevy Z-28 Camaro.

I bought it for $13K , and here is the reason why:

-Extremely low mileage, 35,500
-Car is pristine, 1 scratch, that is all, just one scratch on the car's body
-garage kept prior to buying
-SICK rims on it
-SLP headers, SLP exhaust
-aftermarket intake, loud as hell
-Ram air hood
-35th Anniversary edition Camaro

Finally, the owner was straightforward no BS kind of guy, kept awesome records of the car, and the NADA priced it at $12.7K. And that is not considering the badass rims and some of the other aftermarket stuff done to it.

All in all I was told I got a good deal on it. So I just want to say thank you all for the advice, much appreciated, I learned a lot buying this car.
I hope I can learn a lot by driving it and owning it. This is my first muscle car and I am definitely won over. I will probably never own a foreign sports car again.
Honda for the gas mileage, Camaro for the fun only a muscle car can bring to your life.

Thanks again.


Congrats, I think you'll really enjoy your car... For the record all 2002's get called 35th cars but there is no value in it unless one is a commemorative edition which is red with checkered rally stripes in black and a few other commemorative only options. I am thinking only SS cars got the commemorative package as well...

enjoy!!!

My bad, all I saw was the badge on the car itself for 35th anniversary.

As for the mods, they seem pretty well done. The previous owner restores old cars and has a 67 SS and a Chevelle SS, so I'm pretty sure if anything had been done wrong he probably fixed it. Like I said, the guy was honest and very straightforward.

What do you mean by rear gear ratio being OE? As far as I know all is good on it.

One thing I am unsure about though is a rattling sound whenever I am idling, riding at low speeds with low rpms, and sometimes when driving below 35 mph.
Any idea what that might be?
I figure it is because the pipes are so big (3 in. pipes) and because they are aftermarket, not stock. Just normal due to the sheer amount of air going through as well.
Rattling sounds like it is coming from under me. In my previous sports car, Mazda RX-7, I had a rattling sound, but it was due to a loose protective plate cover portions of the straight pipe and manifold.

Any chance it may be the same on the Camaro?

Some 4th gen guys will change gears to something like 3.73s or 4.10s to go with all the engine mods, shooting for max acceleration. Original equipment (OE) rear axle ratio with the T56 was 3.42, and even with engine mods, a T56 car with that rear will get very good highway mileage, like 28 to 30 MPG.

The rattling could certainly be the exhaust or any heat shielding still there is getting against something. It is probably not "normal." A lot of aftermarket exhaust systems fit awfully close to existing stuff, and it doesn't take much to make an annoying noise.

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure the rear ratio is the stock ratio so it is good to know that I'll get decent mileage.
I'll have to check actual numbers to verify what my actual MPG is.

Is there anything I can do to fix the rattling sound? I didn't notice it when I test drove it, probably because I was too focused on all the other stuff with it, but the previous owner said he didn't notice any rattling per se. I'm guessing it's been there since he go it and got used to it so he doesn't notice.

Anyways, I'm rambling, basically I'm just wondering, is it something I should be worried about??
And how can I fix it??

2002's bring more money than the rest. I guess because they are newer and it was the last year of that generation. With that said that is a steep price for a Z28. If it was an SS then it might be worth it since they are rarer.They actually made more SS's than Z28's in 2002 because it was the last year for the 4th gen. I guess they had a lot of stuff to get rid of.

Congrats, I think you'll really enjoy your car... For the record all 2002's get called 35th cars but there is no value in it unless one is a commemorative edition which is red with checkered rally stripes in black and a few other commemorative only options. I am thinking only SS cars got the commemorative package as well... The commerative cars are referred to SS/LE's (Limited Editions). All were red SS's (natch) with the breakaway flag pattern in silver on the hood.

Thanks for the info. I'm pretty sure the rear ratio is the stock ratio so it is good to know that I'll get decent mileage.
I'll have to check actual numbers to verify what my actual MPG is.

Is there anything I can do to fix the rattling sound? I didn't notice it when I test drove it, probably because I was too focused on all the other stuff with it, but the previous owner said he didn't notice any rattling per se. I'm guessing it's been there since he go it and got used to it so he doesn't notice.

Anyways, I'm rambling, basically I'm just wondering, is it something I should be worried about??
And how can I fix it??My 98 Z28 has an M6 (I also have a 2002 with a stalled A4) and I use it as my daily driver. It has 178,xxx miles on it and it runs like a top. it got 26 mpg at 80mph when I drove to Los Angeles last year.

The "rattling" sound may be an exhaust heat shield that's come loose. I had this happen to the 02 when I put headers (QTP stainless steel) and dual exhaust on it. I ended up putting a piece of rubber between the shield and the body. I also had a noise come from the Y-pipe I fabbed before I went with the dual exhaust. I ended up fabbing an extra attachment tag to bolt the Y-pipe to the body to keep it from rubbing/banging on the body support. It also may be the headers and/or the Y-pipe. The SLP headers and Y-pipe are a sloppy fit. I'd get it up on a lift and check things out.

So there is no way to tighten the exhaust heat shield to get rid of the rattling?

I'll try and see if our shop here on base has a lift, hopefully I can find out there.

Otherwise, what is fabbing? Sorry not down with the lingo.....lol


As for the origin of the sound, it sounds like it is coming from the center or center right of the car (passenger center). Not the rear.

Is this a serious issue? or just leave it be for now?

So there is no way to tighten the exhaust heat shield to get rid of the rattling?

I'll try and see if our shop here on base has a lift, hopefully I can find out there.

Otherwise, what is fabbing? Sorry not down with the lingo.....lol


As for the origin of the sound, it sounds like it is coming from the center or center right of the car (passenger center). Not the rear.

Is this a serious issue? or just leave it be for now?1st off the heat shield is only a supposition. It may be something else.

IIRC, most of the heats shields are attached with sheet metal screws. In my case I loosened a screw up, placed a piece of rubber between the shield and the body and retightened the screw. That rattle went away.

In the other case I had to fabricate a piece of sheet metal which I then drilled a hole into, bent to an angle and then tack welded to the Y-pipe. I then fastened it to the body with a rubber washer between the body and the fabricated piece. Fabbing is slang for fabricate, fabricated, etc.

I hope you find your rattle. As I stated, I found mine by putting the car on a lift and moving/shaking things til I found the offender.

If you're at any major base here in the US they'll probably have a place where you can work on your car and they'll provide the tools. At least they did when I was in the service.

Good luck and have fun with your 4th gen. As I stated my 98 is my daily driver and has 178,xxx miles on it. It runs like a top. My 2002 has 45,xxx on it and I beat on it at the track like a red headed step child. It takes it all and begs for more. I've got it running a best of 12.66 at 107 with a 1.76 60 foot at Firebird raceway in Phoenix. All I have are bolt ons and a 3400 stall converter and some suspension work.

Now, if only I can get my 67 painted and back on the road.....

My 99 SS had an annoying rattle in the interior. The rear sail panels have a piece of styrofoam under them that help them hold up to someone leaning on them, but no one ever sits in the back of my car so I took them out and eliminated the squeaks/rattles. Weld in subframe connectors will also tighten the car up alot. I have UMI boxed weld in connectors on my car. What they mean by OE gear is that it probably still has the original equipment gear in it, a 3.42 ratio. You should get 30 mpg if you drive it right. My friend had a 99 Z28 with full bolt ons and he got 32-34 mpg on every tank if he wasn't into the throttle. Your car already has an LS6 intake on it since it is a 2002, so there is no need to upgrade it unless you go to a fast 92 mm intake, and you don't need that unless you plan to put a bigger cam in it and a set of good heads on it. After the newness wears off, I think you'll be happy with a decent sized cam and a 4.10 gear. A lot of guys have got into the 11s with exhaust, cam and a 4.10 gear. Right now the car should run high 12s with good traction. A website I recommend going to is http://www.ls1tech.com its one of the best on the net for ls1 based vehicles. :thumbsup: If your car doesn't have a air lid, i would recommend getting one of them too. You can get used ones for 50 bucks and they are good for 8-10 rwhp. I would get a SLP lid. The only thing you need with full exhaust in a 02 is to have the rear o2s deleted out. I haven't tuned my 99 SS since I put headers on it over 4 years ago, and it runs great. I picked up about 3 mpg and it ran a whole lot stronger after the swap. The only thing I had was the rear o2s deleted out. A tune might net you 5 rwhp.

http://people.clemson.edu/~jaander/Images/DSC02588.JPG

In addition to the above: When getting a lid you want to get one for a 98 or 99 as they don't have the air tube (which is an extra piece that you don't really need). Otherwise you'll have to plug up the hole. I have an SLP lid (a 98/99 as pictured above) on my 02. The differance between the stock lid and an SLP (or most other aftermarket) lid is that it doesn't have baffles in it (it's smooth inside for better airflow).

I also deleted (tuned out) the 02's when I went with headers. No cats so no need.

And I 2nd the installation of weld in subframe connectors. It was the 1st mod I did to my car. You don't want to twist up the body over time.

You'll enjoy the car. The rattling is most likely the exhaust due to the headers and y-pipe. There are a couple of heat shields on the floor that might be loose so you'll need to get under the car to check things. It could be the y-pipe hitting the floor as well. Did he tell you if he had it retuned after installing the headers? If not, you'll want to have it checked out and most likely retuned or you could be running rich or lean which will not be good for a daily driver.

Wow, a wealth of info. I have no clue where to start.

As for getting a lid, I have RAM Air, so a lid probably wouldn't fit since the air is fed directly to the intake off the hood.
As for the rattling, I've noticed it is on the passenger side near the bump. I thought maybe it was the plate holding up the Y-pipe, but I don't think that is it.

The car has had 2 owners before me. The first owner put the headers, the ram air, the intake, etc. on the car. The second owner just took it as it was and kept it in the same condition the first driver did----excellent that is.

So I have no clue and I doubt the previous owner would either, as to whether or not it was retuned. I'm driving it more than either of the previous drivers so I guess I will have to get it checked out, maybe even do a tune-up. By running rich or lean, what do you mean? Oil?

As for the gas mileage, it has been decent, I'm accustomed to a car that revs higher, so I think part of my problem is not switching gears fast enough, I usually hit 2 to 2.5 on the tach before I switch gears most of the time. Otherwise, I dunno why I wouldn't be able to get such mileage, cuz so far I haven't.

When you say delete the o2s, what do you mean by that? because there is no muffler, it is straight pipes.


Not sure what I need to tighten, if one of ya'll is cool enough, take a pic and photoshop in what ya'll are talkin about cuz like I said.....I'm a newbie at all this:-/

Thanks all!

Your car has 2 sets of Oxygen sensors (O2's) that allow the PCM (Powertrain Control Module or computer) to vary the time of the spray of the injectors for optimum air to fuel ratio (lean = not enough fuel; rich = too much fuel). You really need only the front pair (they will be in front of the catalytic converters or cats) for the PCM to operate properly which, in your case, will be all you have as you have headers (and the O2's will be screwed into a bung welded into the collector portion). The rear O2's are positioned after the cats and measure the effeciency of the cats. Deleting the rear O2's will set a trouble code in the PCM which will result in a (I believe) "service engine soon" light coming on on the dash. This can be "tuned out" (turned off really) thru the use of one of the many tuning suites available.

There is more to this but I'm at work now and gotta do some of what they pay me for.

Wow, a wealth of info. I have no clue where to start.

As for getting a lid, I have RAM Air, so a lid probably wouldn't fit since the air is fed directly to the intake off the hood.
As for the rattling, I've noticed it is on the passenger side near the bump. I thought maybe it was the plate holding up the Y-pipe, but I don't think that is it.

The car has had 2 owners before me. The first owner put the headers, the ram air, the intake, etc. on the car. The second owner just took it as it was and kept it in the same condition the first driver did----excellent that is.

So I have no clue and I doubt the previous owner would either, as to whether or not it was retuned. I'm driving it more than either of the previous drivers so I guess I will have to get it checked out, maybe even do a tune-up. By running rich or lean, what do you mean? Oil?

As for the gas mileage, it has been decent, I'm accustomed to a car that revs higher, so I think part of my problem is not switching gears fast enough, I usually hit 2 to 2.5 on the tach before I switch gears most of the time. Otherwise, I dunno why I wouldn't be able to get such mileage, cuz so far I haven't.

When you say delete the o2s, what do you mean by that? because there is no muffler, it is straight pipes.


Not sure what I need to tighten, if one of ya'll is cool enough, take a pic and photoshop in what ya'll are talkin about cuz like I said.....I'm a newbie at all this:-/

Thanks all!

The hood directs air into a small area under the lid, it goes through the air filter, through the lid, then through the mass air flow sensor, then though a bellow then through the throttle body and finally into the intake. If the air is going straight from the hood to the throttle body, then it has been retuned because it is now speed density. I highly doubt your car is setup this way. A lid should fit on your car. I see no reason why it wouldn't. You say your car has ram air....I'm guessing it has the SLP Ultra Z hood.

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/2/4248/2661/23118830011_large.jpg

running rich or lean means that the pcm was calibrated at the factory for the stock exhaust. When they put headers on it, it wasn't retuned probably. A tune adjusts the air fuel ratio to the engine, this is what they mean by rich or lean.

the car has 4 oxygen sensors (o2s) on it from the factory. 2 before the cats, and two after. deleting the rear o2s means that a tuner removes the rear o2 sensors from the pcm....hence it's like they were never there....this keeps the SES light from coming on due to a malfunctioning/missing cat.

Beware of speedbumps, etc. SLP headers hang low. Go check out ls1tech for all kinds of good info on these cars.

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

Yes I do have the ultra Z hood, though it is a variation of it because it has the snout look like a WS6 TransAm. The picture before showed the SLP lid on top of the air filter which would block the hood from being able to close, thats why I said that before. Now, if the lid doesnt block it then no big deal I will get one, but Im so new a driver to this car that if it is only for the purpose of more HP, then Im not particularly interested, gotta tame the beast, ya know


I found the problem to be a loose rear o2 sensor, I tightened it up, no more rattling. I just need to put a cap on where the o2 sensors are currently. Guy on the base shop told me where to get it and as soon as I am back in the country I will be capping those 2 rear o2 inserts. It was coding before I got the car, but the previous owner replaced the 2 front o2 sensors and it has stopped since, so I think that prob is solved.

As for running rich or lean, I am assuming the only way to know is to go get it tuned. I do feel that I am not getting all the gas mileage I should be getting, or maybe I am wrong since I have never owned a car with a V8.
I will put it to you guys this way, I had 3 quarters of a tank when I left San Antonio and was near empty by the time I reached my former hometown in Southeast Houston. Does that sound about right
To compare, before Camaro, I drove a 2006 honda accord 4 banger coupe and it took half a tank to get to Houston from San Antonio

----sorry for lack of punctuation the computers here are meant for spanish speakers, and I dont know how to reset the keyboard for english......lol



I would assume that considering the condition of the car and how well the former owner kept track of everything, it probably was tuned for those headers.
How can I find out before having to dish out the cash to get it tuned
and how much would it cost

Sorry for long essay. Thanks again everyone