I though I would put this information in a thread just in case this happens to someone else or I maybe the lonesome lucky dog, where they have excessive slip yoke angle on the Transmission and can't correct it. The trans is almost touching the floor can't go up anymore to decrease the angle, I have a TKO600 setup in ,and have had a vibration at hiway speeds. *If you want you can read the Thread in this forum TKO swap / 12 Bolt Vibration .post # 8,17,19 & 28,that I posted some info. In.
I got my Driveline back last week and in , quick run down they replaced the Trans slip yoke u joint ,with a Constant Velocity joint (not Cheap 457.00) as CV's are less sensitive to working angles than u joints .
The vibration is gone ,for the most part, isn't smooth as silk but now you can drive down the freeway and cruse at 70 mph + ,so then I went to my pal the tranny guy, and he checked out the setup and everything look's good , he agrees with me the trans angle down is excessive doesn’t look right the cross member is from the kit supplied,(working angle I was told has been engineered into the cross member) with the transmission ,so he's with me doesn’t completely buy the tunnel sag thing, Why my tunnel is different or as per tech dept ,I have floor sag or tunnel sag (read the sticky in this forum under TKO ,about possible tunnel sag. And how it could affect your installation ,So short of removing the TKO and installing a Muncie ,I had to try this setup 457.00 was cheaper than 1800.00 for a Muncie, I am not 100% satisfied but almost there but 90% .
So as for any other TKO guy's how is your TKO swap working ,and did you modify anwthing??? ,am I the only guy out here that has or had problems ,I would love to here from you guys…What you think.. Thanks' in advance and Happy Motoring :)

I've recently installed a tko-600 in my '69 but still have the front sheet metal off and haven't driven it yet. I was wondering which body bushings you have and which motor mount/stands you're using?

I have owned the car for 33yrs ,have stock engine (stand's) mounts ,motor mounts are energy suspension early style ,and my body mounts are solid ,and if I remember they were comparable to the stock rubber, I do have Hotchkis leaf springs 1.5 lower,( I was told by Drew @ Hotchkis this will not adversely effect pinion angle) I have noticed in signature's from posting other folk's here have the same setup ,I would assume with no problem ???
My trans pal checked out the rear for warn loose improper setup, and all looks good, he has a problem with how low the trans is sitting on the supplied cross member that’s the only thing that concerns him. I did shim the pinion up 2* last nite as I was told by NW driveline, if any problem still exists would be aft of the driveline with the CV joint setup upfront, ujoint still at the pinion, so test drive when it stops raining, any other questions or comments welcome please. Thank you all

When you get sick enough of it, I'll trade you a '68 M20 with Hurst shifter for it straight up.:D

I know you've already checked everything out but my driveshaft tube got a small dent in it once that threw everything out of whack at 70mph. It only cost (at the time) $90 to have a machine shop cut my yoke ends off, weld them on a new tube, and rebalance it. Sounds like you're not going to be so fortunate.

Hi All, I was able to go for a 30 mile cruse yesterday afternoon on the Freeway,and I half to say it feels good 95% eliminated,I can cruse at 70++ with traffic with no effort or discomfort, the 2 deg. shim up on pinion ,totaly got rid of the decell. pinion wrap.So I hope no one else goes through this but if they do ,this solution using CV joints in place of U joint's may help you ...Happy Motoring

Hi All, I was able to go for a 30 mile cruse yesterday afternoon on the Freeway,and I half to say it feels good 95% eliminated,I can cruse at 70++ with traffic with no effort or discomfort, the 2 deg. shim up on pinion ,totaly got rid of the decell. pinion wrap.So I hope no one else goes through this but if they do ,this solution using CV joints in place of U joint's may help you ...Happy Motoring


Thank you very much for posting your information. I'll be doing the swap along with a T&L 408 in about six months or so and hope it doesn't go down the same road as yours did.

Thank you very much for posting your information. I'll be doing the swap along with a T&L 408 in about six months or so and hope it doesn't go down the same road as yours did.

Steiner ,I hope the best too for you in your swap,I hope this information is never used ,and I am the guy that took the bullet for the rest of us,I am not saying that what Classic thinks my problem is TUNNEL SAG ,is not but just dosn't fit the M O ,my floor is level ,seats backs are not tilted inwards,all the signs of floor/tunnel sag...So at that I have analyzed this to no end ,I have had my trans pal and his ASE certified pal look the installation and car over front to back and thay agree the Trans is to low,you can even notice it when your looking at the motor tilt's towards the firewall ,we even though that the crossmember (supplied with the KIt ) was wrong ,but would never bolt up if it was?? So as it sits the car drive's and handles wonderful ,95 % is as close as I can come I think we can live with that (I hope) ,Happy Motoring

Steiner ,I hope the best too for you in your swap,I hope this information is never used ,and I am the guy that took the bullet for the rest of us,I am not saying that what Classic thinks my problem is TUNNEL SAG ,is not but just dosn't fit the M O ,my floor is level ,seats backs are not tilted inwards,all the signs of floor/tunnel sag...So at that I have analyzed this to no end ,I have had my trans pal and his ASE certified pal look the installation and car over front to back and thay agree the Trans is to low,you can even notice it when your looking at the motor tilt's towards the firewall ,we even though that the crossmember (supplied with the KIt ) was wrong ,but would never bolt up if it was?? So as it sits the car drive's and handles wonderful ,95 % is as close as I can come I think we can live with that (I hope) ,Happy Motoring

It seems to me that what I thought of as tunnel sag would only affect getting the trans up into the tunnel. The trans bolts to the engine which bolts to the front frame. The trans mounts to the crossmember which bolts to the frame. I guess if the car was sagging in the middle like straight across the car from left to right, not front to back, it would affect it by making both the tail of the trans and the pinion point more downwards than they should. Maybe you should try putting in a set of subframe connectors while you're doing all that work if you don't already have a set.

Got em ,we welded them in 28 yrs ago ,I asked this question a while back...

Did or does anybody else out there have or had problems with there setup, the law of avg's. says there is ....I would like to here from you ,or is this just to weard ,and there is a dark cloud following me around . Happy Motoring

The driveline angles created by a lowered camaro gets kinda wild when it comes to installing a tko tranny> if you look at the install with the lowered suspension loaded, the tailshaft points down, the drive shaft points up, the pinion is above the tailshaft and its angle and has little effect since it really can't equall the tailshaft to drive shaft angle. Your best shot is to get the tranny way up in the tunnel and create NO angle at the pinion! getting the tranny higher in the tunnel is the trick: tall tranny mount, or raise the crossmember, or taller body mount bushings, or shorter motor/ frame mounts, or a combination of the above. Or, now, a CV joint thats not dependant on operating angles for smooth operation may be a viable option for lowered camaros.

Thanks' Joe for the info. I have no room to shim Cross member or trans mount up, engine stands are stock s/b 327's ,motor mounts I can't go down as the #1 tube is against the upper control arm bolt, they measure very close to stock rubber one's ,so shorter motor mounts is a no, frame mounts I can add to what I have but that is not right as I would half to add almost a inch to get aprox. Where I half enough room to decrease slip yoke angle ,right now I can raise the trans up 1/2 inch just before it hits the floor ,and have tried this with no effect, so this tells me I need more like an inch or more ,adding an inch to my body mounts ,to separate frame from body may make it look funny, and is not right ,my mounts are same thickness or very close, if I remember correctly..Hotchkis 1.5 lower leaf's ,that lowered the car 1" from my mono's ,maybe has caused some of or maybe all the problem ,but others have done this setup with no ill effect??? So I'm lost ,but the car is 95 % ,so I will work with that.Please anybody else ,I am open to suggestion's …Happy motoring

Jerome, i have a very similar set up as you (hotchkis, zz4, tko energy poly mounts etc.) . if you can raise the trans 1/2 inch and it hits the tunnel, so be it: let it hit, it may buzz, but it will not kill you with drive line vibrations!
The output shaft of the tko is rather low and creates some challange to get it to a point of smooth high speed operation. i found it best to get the rear pinion to equall the driveshaft (static) with a 2* shim up between the axle and the upper leaf. also its important to place the same shim below the lower leaf but in the opposite direction. Use a RUBBER multi leaf pad below the lower shim. i actually have the upper shim, three leafs, and lower (revers shim) pinned and bolted together with a long lag bolt used for leaf springs> the rubber isolation pad is between the lower perch and shim. the the upper and lower perched meet after the rubber starts to distort form the pressuer of the perch bolts.


i have no vibrations up to 120mph (thats my limit)

Where is you driveline and pinion angle set? I didn't see any mention of this in the thread?

I've ALWAYS made the rear end pinion gear centerline paralell (SP?) to the centerline of the tranny output shaft with the weight of the car on the tires. it didn't make any differance if the tranny was "pointed" down or level to the ground or what. Just so the centerlines of the tranny output shaft and the rear axle pinion shaft were paralell.

I've ALWAYS made the rear end pinion gear centerline paralell (SP?) to the centerline of the tranny output shaft with the weight of the car on the tires. it didn't make any differance if the tranny was "pointed" down or level to the ground or what. Just so the centerlines of the tranny output shaft and the rear axle pinion shaft were paralell.


Agreed

The angles are too convoluted when the pinion is above a downward tranny output shaft (as in a lowered camaro TKO install). Its a no brainer to paralell the two when the pinion is lower than a downward tranny output shaft.

Thanks Joe and guy's I did shim the trans up 1/4 " to just before touching the floor ,and did make a little better,before the cv joint setup my trans yoke angle was 4+ * ,my pinion is at 2 deg up now, and with cv joint I don't think measureing the angle would matter. Joe in your post you talked about a bottom shim in the opposite direction between the lower leaf and the schock plate ??? I am tring to picture this and all's I see is the shock plate being tilted downwards in the back...Guy's I don't know why ,in my case i am having so much toruble ,other than Tunnel sag....happy motoring

While not optimal, it does cancel out the pulses caused by the u joints. I've got a bunch of miles on mine with 4 degrees of drivline angle and 3.5 degrees of pinion angle with the pinion slightly higher.

I am tring to picture this and all's I see is the shock plate being tilted downwards in the back...

it squares off the upper an lower perches when they meet. the meat(springs and shimms) between the two perches are of the same diameter if you place the same but opposite shim below the lower spring> its the upper shim that sets the angle, the lower reverse shim just squares it all up by creating an equall distace between the perches!!

its hard to see or imagine without actually doing it or seeing it youself.

While not optimal, it does cancel out the pulses caused by the u joints. I've got a bunch of miles on mine with 4 degrees of drivline angle and 3.5 degrees of pinion angle with the pinion slightly higher.

Is your camaro lowered? The height of the rear is critical to this install. its an easy set up with a normal or raised rear that stacically keeps the pinion below the output tailshaft. Unless you can get the tranny tailshaft to point upwards?

Thank's Joe I do have 2 extra 2 * shim's ,so I will do that ,and feed back to follow,Happy motoring

I'm running a G Bar 4 link and I don't have any more room to move the tranny up. The instructions calls for 1 degree less than your driveline angle. I ran .5 for longevity. I also spent time on the phone with Jim at Classic Chevy and he didn't see any issue with a driveshaft sloping up instead of down. Even with a level pinion, my driveshaft would still be above the tranny output shaft. Will the U joints last as long as it would with say 2 degrees of driveline slope? Nope, but my angles are equal but opposite within .5 degrees. I have chassis dynoed the car and have 15% driveline loss and no driveline vibration at high speed. I would need to modify the tunnel to get it to 2-3 degrees. Intake manifolds are planed for 4 degrees of driveline angle since that was factory spec.

todd how do you like your G bar? i have a second 69 in the works w/ a art morris sub frame getting mini tubbed and exploring the rear suspension options now>

Even with a level pinion, my driveshaft would still be above the tranny output shaft. .

The G bar may place the pinion higher than the hotchkiss leafs place it. hey whatever works to get them to operate smoothly at high speed i'll take.

i chased tko hotchkiss high speed vibs for years till i put it up on a lift with full suspension load . Then it was clear as a bell how convoluted and compound the angles actually are. its all triggered off the low placement of the downward tranny tailshaft pf the TKO and the high placement of the pinion by the hotchkiss springs!

The G bar may place the pinion higher than the hotchkiss leafs place it. !

I correct myself : i meant place the pinion lower than the hotchkiss springs

I like it. It's got a great ride and the varishocks adjustments amaze me. I did tear up a stock bushing on the autocross. I'm upgrading to kevlar/teflon end links now. I'd go DSE quadralink all day if it was my car. I have the DSE sub and it's the shiat.:D

Thank's Joe I do have 2 extra 2 * shim's ,so I will do that ,and feed back to follow,Happy motoring

I had a chance to go for a long cruse Saturday on the freeway ,
and the car feels very good and drives effortlessly ,I went out I -90 up Snoqualmie pass and was able to get up in the MPH .
So i guess for those who do a conversion and have problems with fitment issues with excessive slip yoke working angle ,caused by what the experts say Tunnel Sag ,your fix maybe a Driveline with CV slip yoke and Ujoint rear ,this will cancel out all slip yoke angle ,and only half to worry about Pinion angle,(as explained to me by NW Driveline's) so I feel good about the fix ,I would like to thank GM jim ,for all his help early on Thanks Jim,and the information provided in the Classic kit from Inland empire on Driveline working angles ,that gave me the idea about CVjoints and NW Drivelines ,for building the unit ,Thanks again to all of you too...Happy Motoring
A question for joe or any of you ,joe said to put the same 2 * shim in the opposite direction under the bottom spring and shock plate ,does this do anything to pronounce the 2* shim between the rear and top leaf to set pinion angle,or does this just square off everything ???

the bottom shim just squares it off> the top shim sets the angle!

were u able to do it (top and bottom opposite shims)> its easy to see how it squares it all up, but kinda hard to imagine.

the bottom shim just squares it off> the top shim sets the angle!

were u able to do it (top and bottom opposite shims)> its easy to see how it squares it all up, but kinda hard to imagine.

Joe yes I did ,all look's good,3 rd gear has a funny raddle sound at about 2400 to 2500 RPM's (is that what one of the other thread's is about ???),I reached 500 miles this last weekend,and ready to change the synchromesh fluid..Thanks joe

if you have easy access to the shifter, you can fill the trany from the shifter top> much easier and less waste of that expensive synchro-mesh fluid. i made sure the nylon shifter ball was well lubed with white lithium grease after filling from the shifter. never missed a shift!

i occasionally get that rattle when i load up 2nd or third. i think its actually the tranny hitting the tunnel under high load?? never had a problem with the TKO after intstalling it in 2003.

if you have easy access to the shifter, you can fill the trany from the shifter top> much easier and less waste of that expensive synchro-mesh fluid. i made sure the nylon shifter ball was well lubed with white lithium grease after filling from the shifter. never missed a shift!

i occasionally get that rattle when i load up 2nd or third. i think its actually the tranny hitting the tunnel under high load?? never had a problem with the TKO after intstalling it in 2003.

:thumbsup:Thank's joe...I hope the same here ,I am not into breaking parts did that for yrs Drag Racing ,she is just a Poser now ,but can get up and go ,if I want ...Happy Motoring

Note ,one thing I noticed when i was checking under the car with it on ramps ,NW drivelines clued me in ,as when the car is on ramps or a 10 deg or more hill the cv slip yoke has a weep hole and fluid can slowly drip,past the spline's to the weep hole ,but only at this condition ,we are only talking bout in an hour a 50 cent piece size spot if that,so as NW driveline's say's no big deal normal ,just something to add ,if this applacation is used by others...

This subject is comming to light with maybe others ,sorry to anyone that minds I bumped up.. Happy Motoring :)