I have gone through 4 starters over the past year, some of which I admit I destroyed by not having a bracket in there but that was another thread.;)

This last one made it for about four months then stopped altogether today without warning. It was perfect up til then. The gear in the starter pretty much just broke in half. I have been using the Autozone and Napa starters with pretty much the same result. When I turned it over (when it was functioning) it made sort a slow wind up sound, and if it was hot, it was way slower. No grinding or anything which is what makes me think it just did not have enough power to get it going.

It is the original 350 block, but what else is in there I don't know. I am looking for a suggestion for a good starter, but I am also in need of some advice. There is a crack on the block where the bolts go in on the outer / passenger side. It is a small crack and does not extend up into the area where the bolt actually tightens. The question is how can I fix that. Should I try and glue it, duct tape it or what?:confused: I don't think that this is causing any problems with the starter, but then again I can't be sure.

The reason I ask about the crack is because i am considering a mini starter, but may be worried that it could make that situation worse.

I will try and provide an image of the crack, and for your general amusement, an image of the starter that was just destroyed when i get home tonight.

What do you have your initial timing set at? Cables in good shape? Good solid connections?

4 starters going bad does indicate something is wrong. Have you checked the engagement of the starter drive on the flywheel? If its too tight or too loose, you'll mess-up the starter and probably the flywheel. Usually the starters have a little hol in them so that a screwdriver can be stuck in them, aloowing the starter gear to be manually puhsed out so the engagement can be checked. Inspect the flywheel ring gear, make sure the teeth look good. Of course, make sure the battery/cables/connections are good, along with timing.

You need to check the clearance and shim if needed. Also check your flywheel/flexplate to see if it has damaged teeth.

You need to check the clearance and shim if needed. Also check your flywheel/flexplate to see if it has damaged teeth.

Good advice! Sounds to me like the mesh is too tight.

Here are the pictures. As for how tight it was, I did check it with the little rod that came with it and it seemed ok. All the cables are good. As far as the timing goes, I don't know much about that. My friend set it, and the only thing he told me was that when it was hot, it would be harder to start.

I was wondering, when looking at the flywheel straight on from the front, which way does it turn left or right?

Here is the starter
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3548354903_43f3071e16_b.jpg

Here is the crack. It start with a small chip and goes up. My first assessment was incorrect. It does seem to go a bit into the thread area.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3607/3549168584_d4c1bea11a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3308/3549167162_3967e8cfe8_b.jpg

Flywheel looks ok, but the hole and thread of that bolt hole looks bad. If its not tight, the starter will rattle and couse the gears to snap off just like that.

My hunch as well after looking at it carefully this morning is that the crack is what is causing it. It just like you say, it's probably flexing a bit sometimes when it starts and eventually it hits wrong and breaks the starter. So the question is, how do you fix that?

The crack is likely part of the problem. Are you using the brace from the front of the starter to the block? It will help stabilize the starter....alot and should be used for all applications. Hope this helps.
ZAPPER

personally i would switch to a 153 tooth flywheel and matching starter... solves many issues with starting..

The crack is likely part of the problem. Are you using the brace from the front of the starter to the block? It will help stabilize the starter....alot and should be used for all applications. Hope this helps.
ZAPPER

That was my original problem or so I thought. I bought the car without the bracket and found out here that I should use one. I put it in and it has been working fine for 4 months until yesterday when kapow it broke.

after looking close at where the crack is...the shank or knurls of the new bolts hold there,i would not consider that the problem as much as maybe the block need to dressed with a file..making sure the surface is flat and straight...
...threads look ok??
the bushing on the gear however concern me making me think starter is too close to flywheel??

how's about a pic of the starter bolts ?
I'm gonna guess what part of the cause is before I see the pics, but I'll hold that for now.
if that crack is 50% or better up into the mounting hole, I don't believe any starter will hold,, mini or regular. the bracket might help, but only for a short time.. the paint on the mounting surface needs to be cleaned away, and I'm also wondering ,,, does this engine backfire very often ?
I've never seen a bendix destroyed that much, on anything.
in my opinion, the starter ring-gear is pretty rough; that's not going to help the total picture.
I realize this is a lot of questions and not many answers, but harvesting the conditions will aid in reaping a result. :thumbsup:

Looks like you need starter shims. The starter gear is softer metal than the ring gear (purposely).

Also, you need the correct starter mounting bolts which correctly position and stabilize the starter.

Did it engage ok when the starters did work or were grinding noises heard?

Also, can you turn your engine by hand with relative ease (with a socket and ratchet on the harmonic/crank bolt)?

I think a mini starter would help, less weight on the questionable threads/block. I also think the starter was set up to loose. The reason I say that is look at the remaining teeth, they are all worn. What I can picture heppening is the teeth got ground down and then when he tried to turn it over the teeth were small enough so the top of the tooth on the starter was on the top of the tooth of the flywheel this, put excessive pressure on the starter gear and broke it and bent the bendix up. It ir were to tight I would have expected him to have some grinding while trying to start the car.

Here is a very simple step that most guys don't know about but, every should do. Push up on the end of the starter (hard) while tightening the bolts. This should be done anytime you remove and install a starter. You will be amazed at how much of a difference it makes with the gear mesh. Most people hold the starter up, get the bolts started and then just run them in and tighten them, most of the time the starter will not seat correctly.

I will post a pic of the starter bolts tonight, but they look like this with the rough area on them.
http://www.rickscamaros.com/product.asp?pf_id=SB-20&dept_id=3235

Engine does not backfire ever.

Ring gear is fairly new, maybe 6 months. Some of the chewed up look to it is from the pre-bracket starters hitting it. Some of them would hit it pretty hard.

As for shims, I tried all sorts of setups to get it right. The last starter just bolted right in, and there were no noises except a nice start up sound.

I was not the guy in the car when it broke so I actually don't know what went down. They just called me and said it won't start and I went out and found what you see in the pic.

I have never tried hand turning the engine. I will try that. Is that the bolt in the middle of the flywheel?

well, those are the correct bolts all-righty, so that is eliminated. (I would have bet the farm on Grade 8 SAE bolts; most common problem I've ever witnessed).
then ,,
it almost has to be the issue with the bolt mounting hole being cracked, allowing that one bolt to "move" and not seat the starter properly.. in all probablility, the more you tighten that bolt, the more that crack opens-up.
now, how to correct the problem ??
I don't know-of an oversized GM-type starter bolt, so an overbore and helicoil is out of the question, due to the thinness of the mounting area.
I still maintain that removing the paint from the mounting surface on the block will help...as well as the support bracket as was suggested.
if that ring-gear is only 6 months new,, there's some serious movement taking place, as witnessed by the destroyed bendix gear and bushing. (I'll bet the starter nose is either broken or damaged as well).
this is a shot in the absolute dark, but aside from removing the engine and having some form of weld/reinforcement/rebuild performed on that mount hole,,, maybe some heavy duty Loctite on a new starter bolt ?
and admittedly,, that IS grasping at straws.. :(
also, maybe some "shim" material wrapped around the body of the bolt ? something the thickness of a beer (er, Pepsi) can..
I wouldn't advise investing in a hi-end starter until the "cause" of failure is found and eliminated.
this is the staggered-mount version I have installed on my 454.
http://www.waiglobal.com/products/partimage.cfm?wai_num=2-1691-DR-2
reference the notes: "2-1691-DR-2 can also replace Delco 10MT starters used on hi-performance car applications."
it all-but spins the engine out of the frame, and cost was around $105~ at a local starter/alternator shop in Louisville.
if whatever you replace with doesn't spin the engine relatively fast, you have either a timing issue or a wiring/electrical issue,, which very well may have lead to the block getting cracked in the first place.

Thanks for the advice...

Does that starter that you recommend have a bolt for the bracket? It does not look like it from the picture. I think I need the added support of the bracket on a full sized starter.

I was considering the mini because I was thinking the weight would be a lot less and might work better.

Is there any preference to the staggered vs. the inline? I've only tried the staggered.

Put her in neutral and turn the engine by hand by turning (tightening) the big center bolt in the middle of the crank pulley and harmonic. 3/4" socket, I think. Make sure the engine is turning with relative ease.

Also, if your timing is too advanced, it can really stress the starter. Did you ever have any notice any "kick-back" when trying to start the engine?

I think we're all grasping at straws but maybe one of them solve the problem.

the mini starter which I've linked-to is too short for the stock supporting bracket to work as designed; it could be modified to work with some engineering, but (in mine and most cases) losing the additional weight of a stock 10MT doesn't warrant the need for the bracket,, in most cases.
Your question as-to the staggered mount vs in-line mount has me wondering ...
has someone misled you and placed a staggered mount starter on, where it should be the in-line mount ? I don't even know if that can be done,, just thinking out loud....
but, if this is the case,, that could be the major contributing factor to your starter issue.
you could bolt the (ruined) starter back-on, and if the starter's-motor body isn't almost exactly parallel with the engine block,, you have the wrong starter..
like I said from previous: something is drastically wrong for that bendix and starter ring to be in that kind-of shape with no-more use than what you have mentioned.

The timing is advanced a bit I think. The starter sounds a bit stressed but there is no kick back.

As for the staggered or inline, the block has holes for either. When I got the car it looked liked a really old starter was on there and it was staggered so I assume that was correct.

Maybe I should try an inline one.

I will try cranking it this morning.

Here is what I am thinking of doing to strengthen the area. I bought some steel in a couple thicknesses to create a bracket. I will see which one I can bend but right now I am thinking the 1/8th inch one. Once I create the shape I will glue it with JB Weld to the block and put a bolt in just to secure it at the one end. The other end will kind of clip around and I figure it should be pretty secure and at the very least keep the bolt hole from getting worse. What do you think?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3551362655_03120a4c99_o.jpg

i'd rotate the engine and inspect the full diameter of the ring gear. regardless of age since replacement if it's damaged it could ruin the starter bendix as shown... also previously posted was a statement about drawing up the starter with the bolts vs holding the starter in place while tightening... this i agree with too.
make sure "starter bolts" are being used (with the knurl) they'll prevent some of the twisting of the starter.

i don't know if that damaged hole is going to be the cause of the situation or not... could have some effect but i don't think it's as critical as i/we may think (as far as the bendix being destroyed anyways). as long as the threads are good and the bolt is secure i'm thinking it should be ok (i'm hoping anyways)

i don't think the external bracing with the JB weld will do anything.


i wish you luck, keep us posted with updates ;)


JR

X2 on the JB weld not working well. If anything I'd switch to belhousing studs and JB weld the stud in the broken hole.

What are you torquing the starter bolts to? They don't need a lot of torque like head bolts do.

If you have a 350 engine the correct starter is an aluminum nose staggered bolt nose, not a cast iron starter. It looks like you have a cast iron nose starter...which is not correct....

for a 1967 Camaro with a 350 engine, manual transmission, the application catalogs call for a 3627 starter, which is a cast iron nose

you can input the info here for reference (i like this site for ease of use ;) ) http://www.rockauto.com/

here's an image from that listing:

this link might also be of assistance for reference: http://50chevy.freeservers.com/Starter_Bellhousing.html

All that gives is a number stamped on the case as the OE starter... The nose could be from any thing for different applications depending on what the rebuilder is building. ie Olds-Pontiac or Chevy-Caddie-Buick...The cast iron nose starter is used on 65-69 BB engines....I have never heard of its use on a 350 as OE but I will check further...

I think the ones that I am getting from autozone are aluminum. I could be wrong but I thought thats what they were.

That damage doesn't have anything to do with the starter. That block has been dropped. I don't think you know how to set up a starter. There are specs for end clearance and gear mesh. If those are correct then it will work flawless. Your flywheel is already ate up pretty well. I'd take a caliper and measure the hole in the block and the bolt shank and see if to much clearance exists. It is possible that you could helicoil that hole and use a larger diameter starter bolt if in fact you have a problem with an egged out shank hole..

I don't think you know how to set up a starter.

This is quite possible. Here is what I do.

1. Purchase starter from autozone and trade in broken one.:o
2. Figure out a way to get the bendix gear to stick out and mesh with the flywheel.
3. Bolt the starter on, using the bolts to lift the starter in. I do it a little bit on each side near the end to make sure it fits correctly.
4. Bolt it up tight, I don't have a torque wrench but I don't go crazy on how tight it is.
5. Put the little rod thing that comes with the starter in between the flywheel and the gear to make sure it just fits. This is very difficult to do with the bellhousing but I rigged something to get it in there.
6. If it seems fine then I remove it all and release the gear and then put it back on the same way.
7. Once it is securely in place, then I bolt on the bracket to the block without changing the position of the starter.
8. Hook up the wires and give it a try.

Like I've said, it worked great for 4 months, no grinding or any strange noises, just a perfect start up sound that seemed fine.

On any of the past starters that I have put in, any shimming on either side or even across both side results in instant grinding. That is why the flywheel looks a bit rough, it was from the prior to the bracket, when usually after a few starts, the thing would start to grind.

As far as the bolts go I put them in without the starter and they have just a bit of play in them, like I can wiggle them just a tad. That goes for both sides. The holes do not appear to be "egged out". They are the real starter bolts though.

If I am doing something wrong please let me know.

I went back and reread all of the ideas here. From what I read I think you have been given good advice and it sounds like what you are doing is fine. After seeing the picture of the starter I would definitely inspect the flywheel. Just cranking the engine over by hand MIGHT be good enough but, if it was my problem, I would remove the bellhousing. I would check for cracks, bent flywheel, and for any broken teeth. I would also check to see if it is out-of-round due to a bad casting of the ring gear. Also, check that the flywheel is flat against the end of the crankshaft flange and that the flywheel bolts are the right type and torqued properly. As far as the crack in the bolt hole, that is not good. You might be able to make it 'live' for awhile by removing some advance from the timing. You want to relieve as much stress as possible from that point. You said that this starter worked fine for 4 months and then failed. This makes me think that there is either some broken teeth or cracks in the ring gear. If your flywheel is damaged, you could be installing perfectly good starters and they work just fine until the starter bendix hits the weak spot on a start-up.

personally i would switch to a 153 tooth flywheel and matching starter... solves many issues with starting..

X10, I had a miss-matched starter/flywheel and ate 3 starters.:thumbsup:

Well it was back to Autozone today. One great think about them is I can eat up as many starters as I want and they always give me a new one under warranty.:yes:

Anyway, I took all the advice and cleaned the deck real well, got rid of all the paint and made sure it was flat. I put he new starter in with new bolts and a new GM bracket. I checked the gap and it was perfect. No shims necessary.

I also bought one of the coolest items ever!!! The remote starter. I hooked that thing up and got under the car and tried it many many times. It hooks up perfectly, no grinding or any weird noise. There is no wobble whatsoever in the flywheel. All of the teeth seem about the same. No real bad ones anywhere that I could find.

After about 20 or so tries I checked the bendix gear and it seems as good as new.

I checked the crack when starting and it really has no effect on it at all. I think most of the force of the starter pushes straight down, so I don't think that is a factor.

I am going to leave it like this and see what happens. Hopefully it will last longer that 4 months.

Thanks for all the advice.:hurray:

Can't beat those AutoZone warranty's.............Handed a few of those burnt-up starters back to them over the counter myself..........:D
Hope you got it fixed,I know the frustration firsthand....alan