OK im officially pissed. I bought my Brodix RR200 heads complete, milled to 60cc, CNC chambers, titanium retainers, the whole 9 yards....total price after tax and shipping $1645.00 Thats alot of f*****g money right??? So i pull the heads apart to run the outer spring for the cam break in and to my fricken amazement the guides are dry. Yes i said dry. Bronze guides go by by when you start them dry. Also the cheap SOB's didnt even put good seals on them....in fact they didnt even put seals on the exaust. Then after closer inspection i noticed when they assembeled them there was no locktite used on the rocker studs AND to top it off for some odd reason the intake valves are .100 longer and installed higher than the exaust so i have to run a different length pushrod....if i keep the heads that is, Brodix may be getting a set of heads back and loosing a customer for life if there isnt a darn good reaon for all of this. Can anyone explain why in the hell the intake would be .100 higher up than the exaust??? I have never seen this before and neither has my 57 year old neighbor who has seen alot in his day. Please help. Before i let Brodix have it i want to know im not going to make a fool out of myself.
Also its 1 more reason to just do stuff yourself so you know its done right. Thanks
-Nick

Bronze guides won't "go away" starting them "dry." They will go away if they stay dry . . . but they won't. When you say that they didn't use good seals what exactly do you mean? Are they the umbrella style, or the O-ring style? Exhaust valve seals are not as crucial as the intakes because the exhaust port is under pressure for the most part where the intake is mostly under vacuum. For race-only heads there is no reason that I can think of to run exhaust seals (I would definately run them on a street head).

Guides are also set up looser on some race heads. Oil consumption isn't a big deal when you only drive a 1/4 mile at a time. The looser clearance on race head guides is supposedly to help reduce the possibility of a stuck valve under high RPM race conditions.

As for the intake being longer than the exhaust, how do you know? Did you measure or is your rocker arm geometry all screwed up for either the intake or the exhaust?

I have never been impressed with the Brodix heads. they don't typically flow as well as some of the other brands. Just recently though, they seem to have stepped it up a notch and released some new castings that are supposed to flow better so who knows.

Nick,
Did you buy the heads from Brodix directly, or from someone else ? I would be very surprised if they came from Brodix like that, but anyone can make a mistake. I have however seen quite a few heads of different makes that were purchased from some of the mail order places that were very poorly assembled. That is because they buy the heads bare, then assemble them in house with lesser quality parts and labor. That is how they sell them as cheaply as they do.
I have seen nothing but the best quality from Brodix, and if they did come directly from them in that condition, you absolutely should let them know, I am sure they will make it right.

Eric,
You must have typed faster than me smile.gif I would like to make a couple of comments however...in an open header application, you would be very surprised to find out how much vacuum there actually is at the exhaust guide. It is caused by the exhaust gasses flowing past the guide on thier way out of the head. They can suck oil down the guide just as the air going through a carb "sucks" the fuel out of the venturi. I personally think a seal on the exhaust side is very important.
As far as Brodix's flow "numbers" ... don't jump to conclusions until you have some of the other heads on a flow bench to see what they actually do flow. Printed numbers don't mean a lot, especially in todays competitive marketplace. I think that you will find that Brodix's advertised numbers are the thruth. Cant say that about many of the others.

Eric, i took the valves out and measured, also they are a different height visually when installed. I got the heads directly from brodix. Theyre going to hear about it.

The +.100" intake valve length allows for more installed height of the valve spring, which is beneficial with larger-lift intake profiles. I would not be too quick to complain, especially if you do not yet have the pushrods. Later if you go to more cam, you will be happy you already have those intake valves. And, I have never seen studs Loctited into aluminum heads. Torqued in yes, but no threadlocker is needed. I have never used seals on the exhaust side of my race motors, and use a Teflon style on the intake. The guides likely had some oil on them, but I still would have wanted to see grease for the startup until oil got there. That would be my only issue of all you listed.

I agree with Steve, my heads only use "O" ring type seals and my springs/cam required .100 longer valves. Did you provide your cam info to the head supplier? I question why both int/exh weren't .100 longer, maybe a pushrod guide interference issue?. I am sure some lube was used in assy for the guides.

Personally, I would never assume that assy and parts were dead-on without checking first. Your answer may be a phone call away.

It would really be best to contact the manufacture before raking them over the coals here!!

I always ask to have the studs installed without any sealer or locktite so I can adjust the guideplates when aligning the rocker arm tips to the valves. Maybe I am the only one doing this?

-Mark.

Well i talked to Brodix today and heres what they said: They put 2 drops of oil on the guides and spin them in {i still dont like that so im going to lube all of mine} They use a drop of loctite on the rocker studs. The intake valve is .045 taller {i assumed .100 because thats a typical length} because thats all they carry, and they said that on race motors they never put exaust seals on because {to put it quickly} oil control isnt a problem on the exaust side. He said all ill probably have is a small puff on startup and then it wont burn any more oil. Im still not tickled about having to get 2 different lenghts of pushrods but i guess thats my only option. If i was to do it over again i would have gotten them bare and built them myself. Im not bashing brodix because i know there heads are excellent but it just kind of urks me about the lube and the valve height.

I have the first design Track 1 heads.
Their instruction sheet explained about lubing the valve guides if I took them apart.
They recomended torqing the studs to something like 35 lbs and using locktite to hold them. There is not much stud thread length on the intakes as they intrude into the top of the intake port, so they reduced the stud torque specs.

I did as they said, and the studs were coming loose! I finally had a stud snap off after coming loose and one roller lifter got thrown out of the bore. The remaining lifter spun around on the lobe scarring it up but just a little because I shut it right off when it happened.

I now torque my new ARP studs to 60 ft lbs.

I tried pouring a LOT of loctite on the studs before switching to the higher specs, the locktite didn't work, in my opinion one drop of loctite on a helicoiled stud would do nothing at all to help.
As mentioned above, you need to adjust the guide plate position to make the rockers sit right. Mark and number the top of the plates so when the cyl head shop removes them you can put them back right. I tell mine to leave them in place to reduce the chance of a stud hole tearing up.

I have found that aluminum holes do not hold a bolt well at all, they will come loose. Helicoils hold much much better. I've seen this on header bolts, and bellhousing bolts on my race car.

I have read that some "poor" seals are used intentionally to allow more lube to the guides. My track 1 heads had no exhaust seals either, but they are on a race car. My cyl head shop guy added them later while they were in for a touchup.
I don't like the difference in valve length either, THAT would bug me. It increases the chance of mixing up the pushrods and sooner or later it might happen...
My Track I's have ALL the valves .100" longer but maybe there is some reason yours have to be different.
David

[ 06-01-2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

Good point on the rocker arm studs David. I've found the same thing. So now when I check my valve lash (solid FT cam) I always try to tighten a valve setting without loosening the posi-lock screw in the center first. This way if the stud were to come loose it would be pretty obvious.

Well Brodix lied to me, straight up lied....he said the valve height difference was .045. Well after measuring carefully its .070. Why in the hell would somone put 2 different lengths of valves in a set of heads in the first place??? There isnt one scenario i can think of that would requier that. To top it off after careful measurement of shims,seats, valves etc. The installed height of the springs themselves was off .040. Wich is very significant. Oh and the springs that were supposed to be bullet 1.437 springs are mic'ing out at 1.520 so now i have mystery springs. Who knows what they are. All i can say is WARNING to anyone who wants to buy a complete head. Dont. Buy the bare casting, get the rest of the pieces, assemble and machine them yourself. After paying high dollar for what were supposed to be a set up ready to run head. I find im going to have to spend more money on new intake valves. To compensate for the crap that was sent to me. So buyer beware. DO NOT buy complete heads from Brodix. I am now officially bashing them for giving me a bogus product and lieing. And if they dont correct this problem on their dollar im going to bash them many other places besides here.

Novaguy73.
If I were you, I'd send the heads back and get bare heads.

Well, I guess we are all done now.
Bashing is not allowed in this forum, it is in the agreement you read when you registered. It is the policy of the forum owner.

If I were forum moderator for this section, I'd lock this thread due to the "Bashing" reference.
I sympathize with your problems but take it easy here, please.
David

Why dont you just send them back to Brodix for a refund, say that you're unhappy and you no longer want them.
I know how you feel, as i'm sure everyone on this site has been in you're shoes at one time or another.
I used to get very angry about this sort of stuff, but really it isnt worth it, and you'll get alot farther dealing with companies in general if you arent screaming at the person on the other end of the line.

It's time to ethier keep send those back for a partial refund and bare heads, or buy a new set.

I suggest you get a set of world products sportsman II iron heads and keep the rest of you're money in your pocket.
get them bare and have someone who knows what they're doing do a bowl blend and pocket porting.

"hoping for some deep 11 sec. timeslips"

You dont need Brodix heads to make low 11 second ET's, especially in a light car like a nova.

Originally posted by Novaguy73:
I am now officially bashing them for giving me a bogus product and lieing. And if they dont correct this problem on their dollar im going to bash them many other places besides here. Nick - David brings up a valid point about the bashing. I tried to be nice about it in my warning!!

Originally posted by DjD:
It would really be best to contact the manufacture before raking them over the coals here!! I guess you took me a bit litteral! Continued bashing will get you shown to the door!!

I don't think anyone knowingly lied to you about the valves. I would take it as the tech stated what is "the practice" with respect to the valves or at worst what he believes is correct. Kind of like some mis-information provided by you. You said you measured the valves and they were .100" longer, then you said the tech told you they were susposed to be longer (.045") and you came back and said you measured and they were closer to .070" longer!!

In figuring out what you have, you may have uncovered a flaw (the valves), it's yet to really be proven though. What did they say when you told them about the valves being different than what they said? Did you ask for written spec's on what you bought? Did you ask to return them?

As for spending more money to fix them, that's your choice, I think it would be easier and less expensive to ask them to make things right.

The Brodix site lists 3 spring choices. 1.250, 1.437, or 1.550. Is your measured 1.520 so far off the 1.550 that you can't figure out where they came from? You should have written proof that you got the wrong springs if you ordered them with 1.437's.

As I see it you may have a set of heads that got assembled with the wrong springs and valves and you haven't even asked to have them replaced and you are going off the them here for no reason!!

I have run heads with standard-length exhausts and +.100" intakes. Sometimes when you run a lot of cam it is a must. I have +.100"s on the intake and exhaust side of the Canfields that I did, but I have a cam with over .700" intake lift and just under that on the exhaust side. It is not uncommon for two valve lengths. Just like it is not uncommon to find a variety of rocker ratios on a race motor. If you are that unhappy, I know a guy at Brodix, and would be happy to call him for you...

Well i again talked to Brodix for a while today and got stuff straightened out. Mark at Brodix agreed that i shouldnt have different length valves and is sending me a new set of exaust valves to match the intake, and the shims for free to make it right. He was good to talk to. So im officially "unbashing" Brodix for making it right with no questions asked. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by Novaguy73:
Well i again talked to Brodix for a while today and got stuff straightened out. Mark at Brodix agreed that i shouldnt have different length valves and is sending me a new set of exaust valves to match the intake, and the shims for free to make it right. He was good to talk to. So im officially "unbashing" Brodix for making it right with no questions asked. graemlins/thumbsup.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by Novaguy73:
Well i again talked to Brodix for a while today and got stuff straightened out. Mark at Brodix agreed that i shouldnt have different length valves and is sending me a new set of exaust valves to match the intake, and the shims for free to make it right. He was good to talk to. So im officially "unbashing" Brodix for making it right with no questions asked. graemlins/thumbsup.gif Glad it's working out positive!! Let's just hope no one just reads your first few posts without finishing the thread and calls and cancels their order!!