I was wondering if you guys can give me a push in the right direction.
I just got my 68' up and running.
I have a .030 s.b. 350 that has been decked
and the flat top hyper-tectic pistons are
.009 in the hole. I have a Comp Cams Xtreme
Energy cam: .487/.490 lift, duration is
230/236 @.050 and the lobe sep. is 110.
The cam was degreed in 'straight up'.
I have a set of 461X double humps that have been mildly ported and have 2.02/1.6 vales and the springs are Comp Cam matching pcs. at the proper installed height, with Comp Cam 1.52 Pro Magnum roller rockers.
On top is a Edelbrock R.P.M. Air Gap manifold
and a Edelbrock 600cfm Perf. carb. and is fired by a Accel blueprint H.E.I.
I have a T.C.I. 700R4 w/ a manual reverse valve body and a 2200-2400rpm converter(T.C.I.) and a 3.73 10-bolt.

The problem is I don't feel the power.
The car feels like a 83' 305 Camaro I once owned. Can any one point me in the right direction as to what I should do first?
I don't even have 100 miles on the engine yet so I don't want to beat on it yet (or at
least until it's broken in properly and while I do rebuild cylinder heads, I don't have a lot of experience with tuning but I
would love to learn. http://www.camaros.net/forum/confused.gif
Thanks in advance,

sounds like it should run good but dunno , it will run better mabey once u get it broke in and get every thing get freed up in it, make sure you are feeding enough gas to it also if it lacks on top end just put a bigger cam

o i see u do have a cam in it that is the same kinda cam i have in mine i have a 400 small block that is bored over .30 and has high flow stock heads , headers rpm performer intake and a 750 holley + 4:10 gears 10 bolt and it is running a 14.49 through the quater pretty good for street i guess

My guess is one of two things. You are chokeing it with a poor exhaust ie small pipes or lack of headers. Or you have too high of gears in the rear.

I am running a set of Hooker 'Competition' 1-5/8" full length headers to dual 2-1/2" pipes and
two Flowmaster 2-chamber mufflers (2-1/2" inlet/outlet),and they cut off before the rear axle.
The rear houses a 3.73 ring and pinion, I am going to put in a posi unit as soon as I can find an 8.5" rear end to swap out the old
8.2". But I am currently running 3.73 gears.

[This message has been edited by 68'camaroguy (edited 10-26-2000).]

Good point about the exhaust - The engine sounds like a good build though (pretty close to the Edelbrock RPM package), so I'm assuming you put headers and a good free-flowing exhaust behind it??? Your rear end ratio sounds pretty good to me given that you have a 700R4. Should have a lower 1st than an 4.11s with an M20 because the 700R4 has a 3.06 first gear. As you eluded to, maybe you should look into tuning the carb and ignition... I think David Vizard's book "How to build Horsepower" is a great resource. It really explains a lot of engine theory. It's hard to go through everything he describes in a single post. BUT, tuning won't make a HUGE power increase... One time I put a new stereo in my car and I thought it was really weak. But then I really cranked it up and it turned out the volume indicator was just skewed. Maybe you'll feel "the power" when it's fully broken in and you really tromp on it... Good luck!

------------------
Matt
http://camarotech1.com
Camaro Tech 1st Generation

[This message has been edited by houndog72 (edited 10-26-2000).]

Sounds like it needs a little fine tuning is all. Assuming all the basics are there (correct fireing order, good ignition components, etc.) I would check the ignition timing and advance curve. 36 deg total, in by 2000 rpm or so, (should result in about 12 deg advance at idle with that dist.)
The carb sounds a little small for top end performance with that engine combo, but should be plenty snappy around town if everything else is right and there are no vacuum leaks. If everything else looks ok, try a cylinder leak down test to verify ring and valve seal. Running correctly, I would think that combo should be good for some hi 13 sec et's,
Good luck,
Bruce

I hope so, I'm not looking to clean up the
streets, but I was told that this combo
should be good for at least mid to low 13's!
I was also told to go with a 750cfm carb
and it just got here a day ago,(I chose the
Speed Demon 750 vac./sec.), I would be satisfied for now with mid-to-low 13's for now anyway, as this is my daily driver.

Any other leads Guys?
Thanks http://www.camaros.net/forum/confused.gif
-David-

That cam is ground 4 degrees advanced. Did you actually degree it, or just put it in straight up? Should be installed with 106 degree intake lobe centerline. If you just put it in straight up, its fine. If you intstalled it with 110 degree intake lobe centerline, you need to advance it 4 degrees. A holley 650DP will work better with your combo. If your getting traction with a non-posi rear and 3.73 gears, something is not right, should spin the one tire forever, especially with a 700. Check timing (36-38) total advance. Also check valve adjustment. I go 1/2 turn passed zero lash.

------------------
67 Camaro 410sb 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro 388 ET-???
website (http://www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966)

68'camaroguy - Your problem sounds much like mine... My 383 is just under 400hp and with a 3.73 posi and 700r4 it ran 15.2 @ 90 in the 1/4. It should be dippin into the 13's! I will be concentrating on my trans as I don't think I have it setup properly... 3.73's, 26" tires in 3rd (1:1) should take me to 124+ mph @ 6000rpm. Well through the traps I was clocked @ 90mph and I was tach'n 6000rpm in 3rd...

See where I am comming from? Motor is doing it thing fine... The angle of the dangle so to speak is the TV cable must be setup just right at the carb for this trans to work correctly. Even though I uses a pre-made bracket for my holley I am told I need to make some mods to it!! Check out the folks at http://bowtieoverdrive.com They have been real helpful.

------------------
...Dennis
The Cars:
'69 RS Convertible w/SS trim (http://www.camaroslimited.com/memberscars/den.htm)
'96 Z28SS #1679 of 2410 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg)
The Club:
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal (http://camaroslimited.com)

Dennis, What is in the 383 you have? You should be quicker than that. Not a 124 miles an hour though. You must be looking at one of those slide scales by Moroso or someone. My 383 in the 79Z28 ran 13.40@102. And that is through stock exhaust manifolds,and exhaust systems single 3" cat divides into 2 mufflers. Mine is nodular crank,prepped 5.7 Chevy rods, Federal Mogul hyperutectic flat tops w/76cc SR torquers that I did some bowl and minor work to, ZZ4 intake,Quadrajet that I have modified(very responsive and hard pulling)and I use a Comp Cams Hydraulic roller. I chose a marine grind after alot of looking into for the emisions thing. It is 212/218@.050 on a 112 and I installed it 4degrees back. I wanted the power band raised up. I don't worry about the bottom end on a 383. I use 1.6 roller tips that give it now .527/.536 lift. The 1.6 is to pack as much air as I can into the small heads, short duration. I have 3.73's, 27" P265/60/15, Turbo 350 gm3 converter, all smog equipment is there and it passed, even looks stock with the green/blue paint on the motor and it idles smooth(throaty and a little like a big block) The engine made 376 Hp at 5200 with the manifolds and 467 ft lbs tourqe at 3100 after turning a few screws. I had this combination planned for a while and tried it myself finaly. I have since sold this combo to smog legal late pickups,camaro's, and impalas. I have the chevy HEI I redid with the MSD module/coil. World Products is going to put some shorty headers on the car. High 13's and 97 to 99 is what yours should see I believe. Now to look at that 350 Galen

------------------
S/B Chevy Lover
67 Camaro street car
10:50's @ 128 on motor w/383 cid
79 Z28 w/383 9.1:1 3.73:1 Restoring stock apearance
13:40's @ 101 stock exh.& intake& Qjet
smog legal
Camaro Lover

Galen - The 124mph wasn't a 1/4 mile figure! If you do the math for tire size, rear gear and rpm my car should be going 124+ at 6000 rpm.

383ci
KB pistons - 9.7:1 comp
Isky cam - ADV Dur (280).050 Dur(232) LC 108 Lift(.485)
Sportsman II Slants - No porting
Holley 780 Vac sec on top of a Z/28 intake
Stock exhaust into 2 chamber flows and a recurved HEI

The fact that I spun up to 6000 in 3rd going through the traps @90mph makes me think it's the tranny. 90mph in 3rd (1:1) should have been apx. 4500rpm...

I expect this combo should dip into the 13's @ 97-100 mph...



------------------
...Dennis
The Cars:
'69 RS Convertible w/SS trim (http://www.camaroslimited.com/memberscars/den.htm)
'96 Z28SS #1679 of 2410 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg)
The Club:
Camaros Limited Nor-Cal (http://camaroslimited.com)

Is was going to say....124 mph in the 1/4. Damn, I went 124, but on a high 10 pass! Wouldn't a 13 second pass at 124 mph be a sight to see.

Two years ago, we were bracket racing a 7.70 range dragster. An 11 second mustang was cleaning up in the early rounds and we were next to line up against him. My friend Brian desided to beat it at its own game. He used his delay box and throttle stop to match his opponents 11.60 dail in. They both left, the dragster went on the throttle stop for the looooongest time then took off againt. Brians ET 11.61@152MPH! Talk about spinning the Mustang around on the long end!



------------------
------------------
Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/

I think DJD is on to something here. I'll bet it's in your trans. With your combo you should be in the 13s. If you're feeling it then it's not getting to the wheels. Might also check that torque converter. It could be slipping all the way.

Thanks for all your info Guys,

I'll be looking into all the suggestions
and I'll post any progress.
A lot of your ideas have given me a lot more insight on what to checkout.
I really appreciate the help.

Thanks
-David- http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Your cam installed the way it is and the geometry designed into it is eating up ALL of your converter.

Dopnt start freaking out until you dial this thing in. Yes, converter is a freckle tight, but your 1st gear ratio of over 11:1 should make up for that.

600cfm is too wimpy I'm afraid, but my guess is that the jetting is too lean. Make sure you start a bit fat ( rich) on the Demon. Hopefully it comes that way. You should see a nice boost there.

First you should focus on timing. Check and make sure its close to 12-16 inital, 35-40 total with maybe 10 vaccum thrown in. Assume your Compression is above 9.5:1 with these specs.

Then check your plugs. I sincerely hope there are a bit white-ish. Means your engine is lean.

Once you get those plugs a nice medium tan, and your timing dialed in, I bet it runs much better.

You say you've got an Accel HEI? If it's like the problem I had, I discovered the vacuum advance is adjustable. I had one in my blazer, and was getting no power. After reading the instructions (I know that's what they're there for), I took it out and flogged it a few times making adjustments at 1/2 turn every time with an allen wrench. You could feel the difference. I ran it up until it pinged then backed it off a turn.

[This message has been edited by CReM@$TeR (edited 11-02-2000).]

>>I dont even have a 100 miles on it yet so I dont want to beat on it yet<<
I wouldnt make any changes until it's broken in, then re-evaluate. Wait until you can really rev it and see how it feels on the top end. A 230/236 cam in a 350 is going to feel a bit soft under 3000 rpm, anyway.

Galen,

Please comeback and give us your thoughts on the installation of "short" cams that give max power in the 1000 to 5500rpm range. You know like a big tow truck engine.

I think a 204/214 or 210/220 cam should really wake up stock street engines, wayyyyy down low and yet carry on through 5000+rpm.

I guess, what I'm saying is that I'm not totally convinced that cams above 220 intake duration at .050" are really needed or desired in a 9/9.5 to 1 CR. engine. Please discuss and anybody else that wants to join in on the fray!!!! pdq67

You need to check the distributors timing advance rate and the amount advance it has built into it.You need about 14-18 degrees initial advance(with advance pluged),and about 35-38 degrees total, at about 2800 rpm.
If your advance continues to advance after 3000 change to lighter springs.
If it has more than 38,or less than 35 total(when advance is all in)you need to change the advance pin bushing.

You also need more than that 600,but I see you already purchased a 750.

The bigest thing to do when degreeing in a cam is to install it on there recomended intake centerline angle.This can make a large difference.

2200-2400 stall is a bit tight with that cam.You should have a 3000-3500 stall.With a 700 trans it might not be that big of an issue because of its first gear ratio.

3.73's are good and so is your 1&5/8 inch headers with 2&1/2 inch exh.No problem there.

Is your problem off the line,once you get rolling, or is it over the entire powerband?

Tuning will not give you a tremendous amount of power,but it will give you a much improoved seat of the pants feel.The motor will become much more responcive to your throttle input.
I have personally tuned cars at the track with no more than carb changes(jets,powervalve,accelerator pump quirters)timing changes(initial,total, and rate) and plug changes(reach and heatrange).Sometimes reducing the E.T's by 1/2 second.



[This message has been edited by mutant 68 (edited 11-12-2000).]

Thanks guys,
I've looked into the distributor a little
and turned the adjustable advance a little
and that woke it up a little. But I still
need to play with the timing and I figured
that I would be better off doing any real fine tuning after I put on the 750 Demon.
(I'm just having a bit of trouble finding
the pump to carb plumbing)
I'll post any further progress.
Thanks again guys, http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif
-David-

You should tune the timimg before you tune the carb.The timing adjustments will effect the carbs optimum settings.

Hey man, the smartest thing I think you should do is drive it for 500 to 600 miles and make an appointment with a chassis dyno shop. If you want to take the guess work out of your missing horsepower/ torque problem this is the only way to correctly diagnose the problem. They can read your air/fuel ratio from o2 sensors in your exhaust and set your timing and advance until your car makes its most power. The cost is approx. $150-$180 and it will get the most out of your combination.
Just my two cents

Scott Karam

I second the vote on driving it for a while. i have built my share of 350's for people and put my 383 together without a problem. OK, so maybe I wiped a cam during breakin!

My new 350, with the Performer RPM package, minus the heads, gave me fits. Mind you, I never really drove the car past a few test runs. The car would not idle below 1200-1300 rpm and ran warmer than I wanted. Power was also not the greatest. I finally gave up and decided to just drive it. My thought was, that what ever the problem was, it would show up when it broke. By the second or third day of EASY driving I was able to start making adjustments to the carb. It started to idle. After a week, it was fine. Once I verified the timing, adjusted the idle and carb, the car runs great. Now it idles at 900 and pulls like a freight train.

I don't think it makes sence, maybe it was just a tight motor....

------------------
------------------
Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/

I totally agree.I have a performer rpm setup also, and let me tell you i was very impressed!As far as duration it had 234in 244 ex and it has great power through the 1500-6500 rpm range.i had fits with the 750,but went with a 650 double pump and ran a 13.56 at 104.

Hey Guys,
I agree with you Scott, thats a good idea
but after a little searching, I couldn't find a place with a chassis dyno out by me.
Where I live there are guys with great cars
and the street racing is big in some places,
but I'm not sure if there are shops that are
into the expense of insalling a chassis dyno. Most people out here see cars the same way they see toasters.
---------------------------------------------
And Mark,
How long was it before you found out that the cam was wiped out? Did it cause any damage?
I'm thinking about going with an aftermarket aluminum head so if I have to change the cam, I would do it over the winter while the car is down for the season.
Let me know here on this post

Thanks,
-David- http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

And if those suggestions dont work, get a NITROUS system.

David - Not very long. Motor was broken in (20-30 minutes) and run about on the street about 25 miles. All was fine. Took it out on the highway the next day (30 more miles)and was on my way home when it started to "pop" a bit. I pulled over and yanked a valve cover, but it was already too late. I drove the final 5 miles home with a dead hole. It was a Crane solid cam. I called then just to bitch a little. The cam card states no warranty. Nver got a chance to bitch. Tech support said, send us the cam, with the lifters and if the lifters are the ones we recommend, we will replace the set. Sure enough, about a week later, I recieved a new cam and new set of lifters for free. Not a bad company!

You guys witht he perfomer RPM setups, do you suffer from a lack of under 1500 rpm power?




------------------
------------------
Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/

Yes i have nothing under 1500 rpm, I have the rpm kit with 4.11 posi in back. But at upper rpm's it goes just fine.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DjD:
68'camaroguy - Your problem sounds much like mine... My 383 is just under 400hp and with a 3.73 posi and 700r4 it ran 15.2 @ 90 in the 1/4. It should be dippin into the 13's! I will be concentrating on my trans as I don't think I have it setup properly... 3.73's, 26" tires in 3rd (1:1) should take me to 124+ mph @ 6000rpm. Well through the traps I was clocked @ 90mph and I was tach'n 6000rpm in 3rd...

See where I am comming from? Motor is doing it thing fine... The angle of the dangle so to speak is the TV cable must be setup just right at the carb for this trans to work correctly. Even though I uses a pre-made bracket for my holley I am told I need to make some mods to it!! Check out the folks at http://bowtieoverdrive.com They have been real helpful.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>man,sounds like its just in second gear still.

Your combination should work very well. Try bringing the advance in quicker you have enough duration in the cam so you can do it without gettin any detonation. Leave the 600 on there you may need to mess with the jetting but the 600 should work fine. Take a look and make sure the throttle is opening all the way {a very common problem}. I will bet if you get the timing right it will run just fine. You have to play with it until you get it right.

I'll second the throttle opening all the way issue... Oger can I quote you on the last sentence you wrote? http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

------------------
...Dennis
'69 RS Convertible w/SS trim (http://www.camaroslimited.com/memberscars/den.htm)
'96 Z28SS #1679 of 2410 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg)
"The Club" (http://camaroslimited.com)

i would play around with your timing. ive ran a 13.2 with 1.94/1.5 041 heads and a smaller deh275 comp cam with a 700r4 stock converter and 3.73 gears in my 355 build

------------------
'68 with a 355 and dart pro1 heads, XE284 comp cam, air-gap intake, th350 w/3000 stall and 3.73 gears.
'69 SS with a 427 with edelbrock alum heads, comp cam, performer rpm intake, 750 street dominator carb with a muncie 4-speed and 4.11 gears

68camaroguy,
Are the heads true 461X's or 461's? The reason I'm asking is the 461x would have already had the combustion chamber modified for 2.02 valves. The 461's for the most part were not. If you simply upgrade from 1.94 to the 2.02 you'll actually flow less because the valve is placed so closely to the combutions chamber wall. that's why Chevy cut or unshrouded the areas around all their factory equipped 2.02 heads. Also to really get the benefit of the larger valves it helps greatly to remove as much material and clean up the valve pocket area just under the valve seat. Unshrouding is going to increase your chamber size a couple of cc from 64 to 66 or 67, but the performance gains will greatly outwiegh the slight drop in compression. If you do have 461x heads it's already been done for you.

is there too much cam for those heads?

my original, stock (w/holley 600, weiand action, dual plane, hedman headers) 350 ran 15.67 @88mph...then when i "pumt" it up to 355, it ran a 14.5...both runs were with a 2.73 open diff AND stock 1600 converter! i always thought my "pumt" 355 had too much cam for the heads that had some work done on it.

now, my 350HO/380HP crate feels as though it could stomp all over my other combo's! i was thinkin' the vortec and 268xe was/is the best drivable combo out there!

I'd bet that 600 carb is lean...my combo is milder than yours (vortec heads, xe268) and my 1405 was a bit lean. However, I would suggest putting some miles on that thing first...get it broke in good and then go from there. May just need to get the rings seated and everything loosened up a bit 1st.

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375hp 78 Chevy truck
77 Chevy Nova
95 Chevy Lumina 3.4L
and building a 78 Nova

camaro79TX what is your total engine setup?