Once again I call upon camaro.net members to help out where others have failed to answer......I got a brand new radiator, a powerful CFM fan with a relay and have been having a problem with the radiator puking fluid. Here is the deal. It is a brand new aluminum radiator, 16 lb cap and electric fan. I replaced the radiator because the old one had alot of crap in it and after a flush it still would not hold fluid without puking it out. Upon replacing it I noticed that there was NO THERMOSTAT. So I put in a brand new thermostat(180) , Brand new aluminum radiator and kept the fan( it is a airride 2450 cfm fan). Now the car will still puke out fluid and I have to top it off after EACH 20 minute trip on the highway. I put a catch can on it so it wouldnt puke all over the underside of the car but it still is puking out fluid. I have a 302 in a 65 mustang. The fan kicks on at 160 and the car never goes over 185 in traffic or on the highway. One thing I did notice is that I seem to have this problem more so at higher RPMS(HIGHWAY DRIVING) I know this is not normal. I have had more than a dozen old muscle cars and never had this problem. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance!!

Mark
TOOFUN

Engines always puke coolant out when they are completely filled with coolant. Older cars with no recovery system just puke it out until the right level is reached. Ones with a recovery system allow the ejected coolant to be sucked back in when the engine cools.

I'll x2 that. If it's not running hot let it puke to the level it wants.

The guys are right, about 2" down from the mouth of the filler is about right. Hot water (coolant) expands as it gets hot. With the cap on that expansion creates pressure in the system, the cap keeps it in check up to it's rating then it releases pressure and pukes. By leaving room for expansion the pressure doesn't build beyond the caps rating and so spills...

OK I can see that BUT.... When I pop the cap off the radiator. The top tubes of the radiator are completely uncovered. When I pour coolant in it takes about 4-5 seconds for the water level to start to appear above the coolant tubes then I stop filling it. When I took a 20 minute drive on the highway I left the coolant jug attached to the overflow tube. When I got home it had filled the jug about 3/4 of the way to the top! seems like an aweful lot of coolant to be puking out. Like I said I realize about overfilling it but you have to at least be sure the tubes inside are covered? Right?

Mark
TOOFUN

Sounds like your pressure cap is bad then...

Sounds like your pressure cap is bad then...

Same thing happened to me a few months ago with my Aluminum Rad. I took a close look at the seal on the cap and the surface of the filler neck.
The surface of the filler neck was gouged and wouldnt let the cap seal.

Either a bad cap or a cap sealing problem would be my guess.

Well thought of one more thing it MIGHT be? A blown head gasket?? Only reason I say this is that when the rpms climb, the temp range on the highway climbs with it. Gotta figure I am doing about 3K on the RPMS and traveling at 70 MPH with the electric fan blowing full blast. So the temp climbs to a high of 195 at 70-80MPH. Then as soon as I let off the throttle and let the car cruise down to about 55-60mph it goes down to 185... When I am sitting at a light coming off the highway it goes down to 181...



So could I be right in assuming that the excess pressure created from a blown head gasket could be causing the temp to rise to such a high level on the highway AND causing the pressure to build in the radiator to exceed the 16lb cap causing it to puke out radiator fluid? If so how do I test for a blown head gasket so that I can either confirm or rule out it all together? I know if I see white smoke it is a good indication but I do not seem to see any during startup and I cant really tell when Im traveling down the highway?



Mark

TOOFUN

195° is not hot at all for an engine. It takes more power to run at 80 mph than at 60 mph, so the engine generates more heat. The system heats up until heat balance is achieved.
You can reduce the apparent rise in engine temperature by increasing the coolant flow through the radiator, increasing the air flow and/or reducing the air temperature.
Do you use a stock water pump and pulley system?
Is your electric fan blocking the flow through the radiator at high speeds?

Mark water boils at 212 degs at sea level and is lowered by 2 degs for every 1000' of altitude. Pressure raises the boiling point and for every pound of pressure the the boiling temp is raised by 3 degs. With a good 15lb cap it should take about 250 deg water temp in your radiator before it boils over. If your cap doesn't hold any pressure it would boil over at 212 degs. Keep in mind that's water, anything else you add to the radiator will alter this.

Pressure test your cap and radiator and you can look for signs of water getting into the combustion chamber by white smoke out the exhaust and you'll see little bubbles coming up in the radiator when the engine is running.

OK Thank you.. but how do I pressure test the radiator cap and the radiator? Is there some home test kit I can get to do this?

Not too expensive if you want to buy one...

http://www.nextag.com/radiator-pressure-tester/shop-html

Check with your local tool rental or parts stores often have tools they loan.

In the event you want to make your own here are instructions...

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-an-Auto-Radiator-Pressure-Tester/

If you're heating up running 70mph, I would say that the electric fan running is actually becoming a restriction. Is your fan thermostatically controlled to turn off once the radiator is cool? You said your Mustang comes on at 160 but does the other one you're having a problem with turn on and off properly?

Make sure you are using a non-vented cap if you do not have a true recovery system. Vented is for a closed cooling system with recovery tank. Running a non-vented cap with just an overflow hose, the fluid level will be a couple of inches below the filler neck since the extra space is for the fluid to expand. It will push out whatever you overfill. Make sure you don't go over 50/50 on your antifreeze mix or the boiling point will just get lower.

You can get your cooling system pressure tested at just about any auto shop for probably a half hour labor charge.

I think your fan is blocking airflow at speed. It should not even be on if you are doing 70, what kind system is it using to turn on and off the fan? Also try letting it puke out and continue to drive it. If it stops puking and never really gets hot (stays under 210) just cruising around town then the rad level has "self adjusted"

Well Ive done some driving and hooked up a coolant jug with the hose submerged. When I do some highway driving it just keeps puking fluid out into the jug. When the car cools down it will not suck the fluid back in and the cap still has pressure on it. I let the car sit for 24 hours and when I went to undo the cap I found that there was still pressure under it. The car will now hit the 220 mark when I drive it and then slow down off the highway. I am assuming this is due to a very low level of fluid in the radiator. The radiator is far beyond "finding its level" I dont think it is the radiator cap since the car should suck the fluid back into the radiator when it cools. It is not and the cap still has pressure when I release it a day later... I really am starting to wonder if it is a head gasket problem but I have NO milky oil on the dipstick or in the radiator. I do however smell rad fluid when driving at high speeds with the temp rising but dont see any white smoke.. What is the BEST way to test for a blown headgasket? Someone said to hook air up to each cylinder and see if air bubbles come up in the radiator. If this is true then how much air pressure do I need to apply to each cylinder and do I need to make sure BOTH VALVES are in the closed position when I run this test?? I guess I just want to rule the head gasket out all together if I can or at least know what I am in for....

Thanks
Mark
toofun

Have a shroud? A lean mix too much timming at hwy speed a bad rad. cap. I dont see head gasket here. How does it idle after hwy speeds a LIL rough? . If you can use an infra red temp prob. that could tell you more.

Mark,

Are you running a vented or non-vented cap? Vented is for use with a recovery tank, non-vented for regular overflow tube.

I would start looking into worn out vanes on the waterpump if it hasn't been replaced in awhile.

If there is still pressure in the system 24 hours later, that says to me that something other than expanding water is causing your problem. If it was just hot water expanding, you are right there should not be any pressure in the system after it has cooled down.

I would start searching for a head gasket problem, try idling with the coolant level low and check with a flashlight for bubbles coming up through the rad. If you want to use compressed air, yes you need to make sure both valves are closed, just use whatever pressure your tank is at, 150 or 125, whatever. Or if you have access to a smog test machine the probe over the open radiator cap with engine running will read hydrocarbons (raw fuel)

Oh, and a blow head gasket does not always allow coolant and oil to mix, it might just be blown between the cylinder and the water jacket.

If there is still pressure in the system 24 hours later, that says to me that something other than expanding water is causing your problem. If it was just hot water expanding, you are right there should not be any pressure in the system after it has cooled down.

I would start searching for a head gasket problem, try idling with the coolant level low and check with a flashlight for bubbles coming up through the rad. If you want to use compressed air, yes you need to make sure both valves are closed, just use whatever pressure your tank is at, 150 or 125, whatever. Or if you have access to a smog test machine the probe over the open radiator cap with engine running will read hydrocarbons (raw fuel)

Oh, and a blow head gasket does not always allow coolant and oil to mix, it might just be blown between the cylinder and the water jacket.

OK I will check that out. This is my plan of attack although I will have to wait till friday to do it due to lack of time...

1. Pressure test the cap and the cooling system.
If the cap is good but the pressure drops, then I know I have a leak either externally, internally or both. If externally I will fix and retest. If I am still losing pressure then I will have to check internally. If it holds pressure then I will have to check flow problems... IE waterpump vains or thermostat sticking etc...

2. Pressurize all cylinders with both valves closed and look for bubbles coming up in the radiator. If bubbles are coming up then I can bet on a blown head gasket. If bubbles are not coming up then I will also run the motor and see if bubbles are coming up then. If not then.

3. I will get a block tester?(If someone knows the proper name Im all ears!!! please) its that tester that tells you if you have hydrocarbons in the coolant by the color changing?

4. If that all checks out then I will start looking for a flow problem. Maybe the waterpump is not able to keep up anymore, maybe the system needs a thorough flushing and cleaning, maybe the therostat is all clogged up(although it is new). I guess I could also check the upper and lower rad hoses to see if there is a major temp difference too. Only problem is the car really doesnt get out of whack unless I bring the RPMS up on the highway.

So what do you think? Is there a better way to go about it to trouble shoot this problem? I hope to GOD it is a flow problem and not a head gasket problem Thanks for the input I really appreciate it.

Just a thought but the thermostat is not upside down is it?? Sister in law had a six banger Mustang that got hot on the freeway, it was because the thermostat was in upside down..
Here's hopin..

Bill

That was the first thing I checked! It is in right but I too thought the same thing at first.

Mark

Go get the radiator and cap test kit. They come witha dye that changes color if your getting exauhast in the coolant. It starts out blue and turns green. Therre might be others that change differnt colors just read the directions for the dye. very simple tool to use.

Could be a head gasket but are you seeing water in a cylinder? is it steaming out the back of the car? With a gasket prblem the piston will create a suction and pull the water into the cylinder, it will also blow gasses out the gasket and to the water. You could also have a cracked head on the exahaust side, again look for steam out the tail pipe. You might also have an air pocket in the engineand it needs to be burped. Try squeezing the the bottom and top hoses with the enigine at temp and the cap off, this will force air through at greater volume than you water pump can.

Which brings me to the next issue, the water pump. Are you running underdrive pullys or over driven pullys? Is the pump turning to fast or too slow? Is the pump even any good? Are the impellers stil good? Is it turning in the right direction? Depending on the year and when serpintine belts came along the water pumps went to reverse rotation and the rebuilder could have put the wrong impeller on the pump? Also check your radiator hoses for crimps and bends that can cause the water to airiate and cause air pockets, as mention above about trying to eliminate them, the pocket of air will not leave beacause it's surrounded by water and can not escape, hence the pressure still on the system after it cooled down. Lots of stuff to look at.

I owned British cars for many years ( I know your sorry...LOL!!!) and they had over heading problems and most could be traced to issues I have pointed out above plus what others have said about termostats etc......make sure your is opening correctly also!! Boil some water in pan on the stove with termometer in it.

Joe

OK So here is what I found out so far... I bought a block leak test. Took the cap off and ran the motor. Let it heat up, warm up, etc.. put the tester on it sucked in air bubbles through the tube like it said to do and the water stayed blue. I think I might have sucked in some fluid too cause at one point the bubble deflated and no bubbles went in and the solution turned a tinge of green... So I shut the car off, and repeated the test. I can see some very small bubbles in the radiator fluid when the car is revved up but they soon dissappated even with the car racing up at a steady level. The solution stayed blue throughout the whole test so I am pretty confident there is no combustion gases in the cooling system.... Anyways funny thing happened.. During the whole time I had the radiator cap off the radiator never overflowed.. Also the hose on the bottom seemed alot cooler than the top radiator hose. I was going to test the cap but they want me to buy the tester and it is 160 bucks!!! OMG Autozone will not let you rent one like they do other tools either.

My engine code is D1OE6015 AA which my research tells me that it is a 302 engine from a 71 Torino... I dont know anything about this motor but the water pump outlet faces toward the pass side... Is this correct? Also that water pump turns in a clockwise direction.. Is this correct? Just trying to eliminate any possibility of the waterpump being the wrong one for this engine. I am going to pull the radiator hoses and the waterpump next to see if there is any crud in the thermostat housing, or waterpump impellers... Any thoughts??

Thanks
Mark
TOOFUN

[img=http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2014/antifreeze.jpg] (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/antifreeze.jpg/)


Please click on the link about to view....Well this is what I end up with in the Radiator(on the right) and what gets puked back into the catch can(on the left) I dont know how it happens but this is the color I get. One thing to add is that I drained some bright green fluid out of the catch can first and this is what is on the bottom end of it... Any thoughts and why wouldnt the Block test kit pick this up??

Mark
TOOFUN

OK for all of you that have been following along here is an update... I pressure tested the cap, fine, pressure tested the system... fine but pressure dropped about a 1/2 pound every 5-10 minutes so maybe not so fine, I completely flushed the system to rid it of any crap. I also took the water pump off and checked the impeller. It is a brand new KOOLPUMP so I think the previous owner had the same problem and tried to replace the pump. I took the spark plugs out and inspected them. All of them were rich but all looked the same, no powerwashed look to them and none of them stook out from the others as being different. So then I did a compression test. The motor doesnt crank very hard so compression would probably be lower than is should be but all the cylinders were under the same condition anyways heres what I found

150
150
150
150
130
120
150
150
So they all were 150 except number 5-6. On Fords they are labeled 1-4 on the pass side and 5-8 on the drivers side. So what now? I think I have a problem here between 5-6. And given that everything else is normal in my cooling system and it still gets really hot and blows through the overflow. Could I be looking at a head gasket problem??? What other test can I do with the waterpump off to confirm this?? Also if it is a blown headgasket would it be very evident if and when I remove the head? or would it be a tiny crack that still keeps the head gasket in place? I dont mind if it is the head gasket(as sick as that sounds) cause at least I know what it is and how to fix it. Rather have it be that than a cracked head!(their iron not aluminum). Any other comments would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mark
TOOFUN

I say cracked head. If your heads are casting number 882 or 624 it's good change they are cracked from the spark plug hole going out twords the heads edge just past a small part of the water jacket. It's common crack area for these casting numbered heads and the cracks are not very big and end soon due to the area they go too. Usally more pressure from exhuast will get through and the water does not at first. Over time if they are cracked it will fail big time. I would pull the heads and check gaskets, block (I have seen pin holes in cylinders but they usally get water but not always at first) and the heads. Could also be an exhaust cross over in a head is cracked somehow to water?

One more area is if you have a stock cast iron QJet intake it could be cracked. They crack at the heated cross over point under the heat shield. It's possible for it to go to water but these maily end up being an internal vacume leak. Something is not right and it might be simple.

Your compression looks like you have a 70's-80's low compression smog engine with something like 882 or 624 heads and dished pistons. If that's the case the 120 and 130 are low but would be expected with this combo and some miles on it.

#6 is the second to last cylinder on the right side (sitting in drivers seat) and #5 is across from it on the left side.

right side
2-4-6-8
left side
1-3-5-7

With the water pump off you can cap one side and make a cap for the other side with an air fitting and pressure up the entire block. If you can drain the all the water you will be better off. Then get it up to about 30-40 PSI and listen for leaks from the carb and tail pipes or pull of the manifolds/headers and listen for any air getting out. It should be not going anyplace and if you do hear it put apiece of tape in that area and contiue looking in others. Mark or photograph for referance the areas and start looking, might have to take her apart to find your issue.

Hey Joe thanks... but first off it is a FORD motor and the banks are labeled 1234 on the pass side and 5678 on the drivers side(thats the way ford did it) So if I am looking at the chart I had then 5-6 are the low compression cylinders. They ring in at 130 and 120 while all the others ring in at 150 steady test after test the numbers are the same. They are adjacent cylinders which would point to a head gasket problem. The fact that I have this problem would further lead me to believe that it is the head gasket. I am going to do a WET TEST on these two cylinders tommorrow( squirt a tablespoon of oil in the plug hole) and see if the compression comes up a bit. If it does then I know that it could be worn rings or worn cylinder walls. If it does not then I would further believe it could be the head gasket or valves not being seated well. But I would tend to believe it is the head gasket on the drivers side since again it is adjacent cylinders both which are 20-30 lbs less than all the other cylinders... I will post my findings after the wet test tommorrow...

Mark
TOOFUN

Hey Joe thanks... but first off it is a FORD motor and the banks are labeled 1234 on the pass side and 5678 on the drivers side(thats the way ford did it) So if I am looking at the chart I had then 5-6 are the low compression cylinders. They ring in at 130 and 120 while all the others ring in at 150 steady test after test the numbers are the same. They are adjacent cylinders which would point to a head gasket problem. The fact that I have this problem would further lead me to believe that it is the head gasket. I am going to do a WET TEST on these two cylinders tommorrow( squirt a tablespoon of oil in the plug hole) and see if the compression comes up a bit. If it does then I know that it could be worn rings or worn cylinder walls. If it does not then I would further believe it could be the head gasket or valves not being seated well. But I would tend to believe it is the head gasket on the drivers side since again it is adjacent cylinders both which are 20-30 lbs less than all the other cylinders... I will post my findings after the wet test tommorrow...

Mark
TOOFUN

Opps forgot about it being furd........most of what I said was for SBC.....sorry and your on the right track.

Well the saga continues.... Removed the heads... pain in the arse but removed them both. The head gaskets are PERFECT! No rips or cracks anywhere in them. They are metal gaskets and totally in tact. Cylinders are uniform and have a nice blackish color but nothing out of the ordinary. Cylinder walls are nice and smooth as well. Upon a visual inspection there seem to be no cracks in the heads but I guess the only way to know for sure is to have them tested. Also I am not sure if they are warped or not so am I guessing that my next step is to strip the heads completely, clean them and have them tested for cracks and warpage? Or do I just bring the heads in the way they are and have them do it? Never had heads tested for cracks or warpage before so I am assuming that I should take it to a machine shop. What do you think? What would a machine show charge to do this and what tests should I ask them to do?

Thanks
Mark
TOOFUN

You want ask them to pressure test them as they are to see if you find anything, if not do a clean and magniflux on the heads. The clean and mag will need them to be torn down. If you don't find anything just have them freshen them up and put them back together or do them up complete.

Ask them to check around the exhaust valve seats on the heads. If they have hard seats installed it's possible one has gone to water from the heads water jacket being being worn due to rust and corrision and the casting is thin.

Metal gaskets? You need to make sure these were sealed correctly witha copper spray and if the torques were ok or even done right. A metal shim head gasket will leak if it's not put on right. Look for any tracking marks from the gasket sealing sealing areas to possible leak locations. You might need a flash light to look for this and you will have to look at the block and head surfaces. Anything that looks out of the norm could be a leak.

What type of intake does it have?

It has a torker intake manifold. I looked at the gasket markings around the cylinder head and around the block for ANY sign of something out of the ordinary and it all came up clean. I am starting to think that the head could be warped a bit. I reason I say this is that when I pulled the head bolts from the pass side head, they smelled a little burned. I cant decribe it but it was a odd smell and different from the drivers side bolts. Also, I first loosened all of the bolts because they were a pain to remove in that small area and then I went back and finger loosened the bolts to pull them out. When I did that I needed to reuse the wrench to loosen some of the bolts again. Almost like loosening some all the way created more tension on a part of the head. But like I said I am not an expert... Called a machine shop. They said that magnatizing the heads is an older method and they prefer to pressurize the heads? Anyways, this shop has an excellent rep according to the local speed shop in town so I guess I have to trust it. When I explained the extent of the problem to him on the phone he seemed to bet that it was a warpage of the head since the 302 ford head is not prone to cracking... Also because of the symptoms I told him and the fact that the head gaskets were totally in tact he further thought it could be warpage but will need to get the heads to confirm it or find out what it could be...

45 Bucks per head to do the testing and if it is warpage and the heads can be machined then it will cost me 80 per head. So I am hopefully looking at either 90 total or 160 total. Hopefully there is not a crack!! I will let you know in a couple of days...

Mark
TOOFUN

If it's warped I would think you would be seeing a leak path someplace, but anything is possible. A pressure test of the heads is a good way to go but amag is also going to let you see some places that are cracking on the outside of the head area that could be possible issues down the road. The 302 head is less prone to cracks but that does not mean they don't. A mag on them would be good to do since they are off and can be done. They do need to be clean in most cases though and it can cost you more money since your getting into dis-assembly and assembly of the heads and some valve seals. The good thing is that you know your all good and you have new seals which are not really that expensive. I would ask them and you can be sure everything was done that you could possibly check. I would also go back togheter with a composit gasket of some sort and stay away from the metal/copper head gaskets. Just my opinion.

Just got the heads back after a hot tank and pressure test. The heads have no cracks in them BUT they were warped. They said to put them back to square they had to mill 5 thousands off... Also seemed that there was some burning of the gasket material but no breakage between a couple of them. Good thing is that the rest of the heads were super clean. Im gonna clean, repaint, reassemble and give it a go.. So I am praying that this will be it. Is 5 thousands of warpage enough to cause the problem I had? I am hoping so but should know in about a week when it goes back together(time time time).

Mark

With a metal shim gasket that could do it. I would use a composit gasket this time around to avoid issues. You will loose a little compression but not much. The gain in sealing for a street engine or street car is worth the loss in my opinion. The loss will not be much but if your aft 1/4 mile times and thousands of sec then you may want to consider the steel/metal/copper shim style gasket you pulled off.