Hey, My best run with my camaro so far is 13.5 and i think i need to get my RPMs up before launching, i have slicks on, and i have a TH350 and a megashifter, when staged, could i put it in neutral with feet on brake and gas and bring it into a certain RPM then pop it into drive and shift down the track? what RPM would be ok to do that at? my 60fts are 2.3-2.5 and i dont think im spinning off the line just dont pickup when i just mash the gas
thanks
Adam
PS, i have 323 gears so i think i should get 373s to help

Adam - what you described is called a "neutral drop" and is the about the worst thing you would want to do to your car!!

In basic terms there are two ways to launch an automatic assuming you don't have a line lock or trans brake. Your best 60' times should come from holding the brake with your left foot and as the amber lights up release the brake and give it the gas. You'll need to practice and learn just how much gas you can give it to avoid too much wheel spin. If you can just punch it and go WOT without going up in smoke then you can try holding the car in place with your right foot on the brake and giving it a little gas to bring the rpms up a bit higher than idle. When the amber lights up it's just like the the other way, release the brake and give it the gas. It's all about practice and refining what you are doing.

The less you have to adjust away from just trompin' on the gas, the more consistant you will be. As an example if your torque converter will let you bring the rpms up to about 2000 without the car moving and you can mash the gas and lift off the brake without going up in smoke at the light that would be easy to duplicate every time. That's consistancy...

Don't worry about your RT until you have the best possible 60' you can get and don't worry about gears or making any changes other than suspension and tires to your car. That 13.5 can be 12's if you can get your 60' times down to 1.9's or lower...

Just to queue the more brilliant minds...

higher stall torque converter?

Drag67, you should be able to hold at least 1200 RPMs on the line in first gear (shift pattern 1-2-3-N-R-P). You can practice this at home in your driveway to learn what the converter will hold. Like Dennis mentioned, it's best to brake with the left foot and use the right for the gas.A set of 3.73s would wake that baby up quite a bit. Good luck and post how things improve. :D

sik - A converter isn't a bad idea but before spending too much money, learning how to use what he has will be very productive.

thanks for the replies guys, i did that in my drive way and about 1100 the car starts rolling, ill try launching at that but my car feels powerless from 0-15mph, i bet a 2200 stall or so with some 373s would be good but i'd have to wait to put that on in the winter, i agree neutral drop is terrible but i wanted to hear what you guys had to say since i am far from an expert, i'd like my 60ft to be about 1.9 and running low 13s, i raced on my 265/14 Radial TAs and when i shifted into 2nd it broke em loose bad , i have a very strong shift kit, posi kicks in once in a while since its an open rear, ill be running this friday so ill post an update, thanks again for the help,
Adam

What you NEED is a set of slicks to race on, New ones.
The way i stage is by holding the brake down with my left foot, bringing up the RPM's with my right foot, and bouncing the brake pedal until i knock out the pre-stage bulb and i'm DEEP.

Better R/T's, but the 60ft will slow 1/10th becuase you dont get a running start like when shallow.

The way to play with starting line traction is through launch RPM's, the more you load up the suspension with RPM's the harder it will hit the tires, and will also R/T faster.
You can play with how hard you hit the tires and with your reaction times with staging RPMs.

BTW i bring the RPM's up and bump in, so that i'm not thinking about bringing up the RPM's when i'm supposed to be focused on the 3rd yellow.

I've produced Mid .5 lights with this method consistantly, and low .5 lights by bumping in.

My experience has been just the opposite, my best 60' times are from an idle. The more you load the suspension, the worse it works for you. This is the advantage of a trans-brake, you can load the converter without loading the suspension.
On a full tree there is no real advantage to deep staging unless it puts you in position where your natural reactions work to cut a good light. You need to be in a consistent position, and putting the top light out tells you where you're at, as does lighting the bottom light. For many years on the west coast most strips had pro trees only and you had to perfect the art of deep staging. If you were in a 15-second car, you had to consistently roll in at least 6" past putting the top light out. I devised several methods of measuring staging depth which proved very successful. Next time you're at the strip run on a pro tree and see how consistently close you can get to a .400 light.

I've got two cents.
After you get used to the whole left foot brake, right foot gas off the line thing, dump those 323's for 355's, 373's or 411's (depending on how much freeway driving you want to do). The 323's will just suck your RPM down into a bog until you get back to your power band.

On the nuetral drop thing...call me the horses mouth (or @$$...you choose).

When I was 16 and showing off in my first granny geared 68 Camaro, I thought the ladies thought I was cool when I rev'd it up in nuetral and dumped it into gear leaving that single line of right wheel rubber for about 10 feet. My neat new trick worked about a dozen or so times before that fateful drop.

I nuetraled, I gassed, I dropped, I sat still :confused: , I turned bright red :mad: ....and so did the asphault under my 68 as the tranny fluid started hemoraging out of my freshly rebuilt T350. I grenaded every gear but reverse, and it worked just long enough for me to back my sad butt into a parking spot to wait for the tow truck to take me away.

I was the talk of auto shop at my High School for a good three months.... graemlins/clonk.gif

Don't nuetral drop at the local strip. The audience will laugh :D at you and then everyone else will be mad graemlins/angry.gif at you for fouling the track.

Tim

"Its not how fast you go, its how you go fast."

Alot of good suggestions here. But the best one is like a forever repeat from your parents when you were in band -- "You need to practice!"

My only suggestion is this -- practice with what you have, consistentency is the name of the game.
If the car does the same thing every time, fine, practice on your reflexes and setting the car on the line. Get yourself straight first, the car will take care of itself.

I run the full tree there is an advanmtage if you want consistant lights.
There is no way to get consistant unless you're leaving off a bulb and not counting or antitipating the tree.
I levae when the 3rd yellow flashes, so i treat it just like a pro tree.

What's the advantage of a full tree as far as consistency? Your reaction times should be as consistent on a .4 light as a .5 light. Maybe not as desirable, but as consistent.
The shallower you stage, the more consistent you will be. A 1" error in position at 8" of rollout will produce 50% greater variation in reaction time than a 1" error at 14" of rollout. Also, the faster you accelerate the more consistent you will be. The variations produced by the 1" of staging error will be reduced by 40% if you increase the rate of acceleration from 16ft/sec² to 32ft/sec².

you are right, you should always be consistant. However the deep stageing DOES make a large difference to some people/cars. Most slower cars will go in deep, it will help you get a better light. As for consistancy on the light, i think everyone has their own spot in the beams and on the tree. The best way to do it is how CNC described, just stare at the bottom bulb. Also what alot of people do is rig up a choke cable or some type of cable, and hook it up to the carb or choke linkage, they set it to the desired RPM, that way they get up to the tree, pull the cable and lock it then stage. That way you can fully concentrate on the last bulb instead of looking back and forth at the tach to make sure you`re RPM`s are right.

Originally posted by onovakind67:

The shallower you stage, the more consistent you will be. Disagree completely, unless you're talking reletive to each bulb.
You can flicker out the pre-stage bulb just as consistant as you can flicker "in" the stage bulb.
Plus with slower Reacting (I.E. FOOTBRAKE) cars Deep staging provides a better reaction time, for the simple reason that you're already out of the prestage bulb.

I've had consistancy within .005 on the tree through 3 rounds with this technique....so IT WORKS. I've used the same technique since day one when it was taught to me by not only Ed, but also was given tips by some of englishtowns best and brightest footbrake racers.
I

BTW i meant to say up there that i run the full tree off the last bulb, and treat it like a pro tree. When the 3rd yellow flashes i go.
It was getting late and i typed it wrong.

Scott,
Thanks! BTW are you heading to E-town this sunday?

Originally posted by NHRA1877:
you are right, you should always be consistant. However the deep stageing DOES make a large difference to some people/cars. Most slower cars will go in deep, it will help you get a better light. As for consistancy on the light, i think everyone has their own spot in the beams and on the tree. The best way to do it is how CNC described, just stare at the bottom bulb. Also what alot of people do is rig up a choke cable or some type of cable, and hook it up to the carb or choke linkage, they set it to the desired RPM, that way they get up to the tree, pull the cable and lock it then stage. That way you can fully concentrate on the last bulb instead of looking back and forth at the tach to make sure you`re RPM`s are right. For everyone reading, this IS the man you want to listen to right here, he has more drag racing credentials then most of the people on this site!!
The age factor means NOTHING, he knows his stuff and has the NHRA wally to prove it.

I think the debate is taking things out of context of Adams question. Remember he was looking to do neutral drops to improve his 60' time. IMO any staging beyond touching the second light and stopping isn't going to help his 60' until he knows how to launch what he has. Same for worrying about RT at this point, important in a race but until you can launch what you have, who cares!!

Slicks and gears and torque converters all help but a 13.5 sec 1/4 with a 2.5 60' time can be greatly improved on without dollars being spent, tires being the one exception if the car just goes up in smoke. Other suspension mods should also come before gears and a converter IMO. I think that Adam also said he didn't think the tires were spinning so it doesn't sound like he's traction limited at this point. There's nothing wrong with burning up the track a few times to learn how to launch a vehicle.

I think we're debating just fine on our own, I happen to have alot of respect for Onovakind's opinion, but respectfully disagree with him, so I'd appreciate it if you'd Get off my back and let us debate.
Drag67Camaro may learn something from this, becuase if he's a drag racer he'll NEED to know this as soon as he wants to be something more then a 1st round runner up.
Staging position has EVERYTHING to do with 60ft ET's as well as R/T's so it's RELATIVE.

Bye Brian, have a good life somewhere else young man!! This thread was not started by someone looking to have it break into a debate! Adam posted looking for answers to his situation.

This should make you quite happy as now you can bounce around the track telling folks how much like Ed you are cause you got booted too!!

[ 08-12-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: DjD ]

Originally posted by DjD:
Bye Brian, have a good life somewhere else young man!! This thread was not started by someone looking to have it break into a debate! Adam posted looking for answers to his situation.

This should make you quite happy as now you can bounce around the track telling folks how much like Ed you are cause you got booted too!! Can't blame this one on me. Thanks CNC and have a great day yourself... graemlins/waving.gif graemlins/hurray.gif

I can't believe he's lasted this long, good call Dennis.

Im a total rookie at the drag racing game however Im going out for the 1st time this w/e. Im lost on the shallow vs deep staging. What I really need to know is do I leave on the 3rd yellow or? Im sure I will either redlight or be way behind the green however I would like to know at least the proper way to launch. Thanks

Originally posted by MickyT:
Im a total rookie at the drag racing game however Im going out for the 1st time this w/e. Im lost on the shallow vs deep staging. What I really need to know is do I leave on the 3rd yellow or? Im sure I will either redlight or be way behind the green however I would like to know at least the proper way to launch. Thanks Don't worry about the deep staging as it is illegal at most tracks anyway. Approach the lights slowly til you are prestaged, bump it in til the stage bulb just comes on and mash it on the last yellow. Let us know how it went, good luck, you are in for some serious fun. :D

thanks for the complements Brian, i think i may drive the car around at island on sunday, i should have the exaust system by thursday so i`ll be driving it by sunday, then i need a front end alignment and should have it down the track in 2 weeks, so it should be early late august/early september till im at E-town. I was at the points race at e-town this sunday, some great racing. BTW do you know a guy named Frank Maffiore? if you ever need parts for you`re Camaro, he has everything you could want.

Sorry for getting off the subject guys, i`ll keep it to the emails next time.

Originally posted by NHRA1877:
thanks for the complements Brian, i think i may drive the car around at island on sunday, i should have the exaust system by thursday so i`ll be driving it by sunday, then i need a front end alignment and should have it down the track in 2 weeks, so it should be early late august/early september till im at E-town. I was at the points race at e-town this sunday, some great racing. BTW do you know a guy named Frank Maffiore? if you ever need parts for you`re Camaro, he has everything you could want.

Sorry for getting off the subject guys, i`ll keep it to the emails next time. Brian can't hear you, better email him.

69RS/SS350,
Not bashing, but what tracks are you racing at??!! there are VERY few if any that deep staging is illigal, i know some where they don`t encourage it and you need to be fast and get into the beams, but other than NHRA stock and super stock i don`t know of any where deep staging is illegal.

Well certainly things may be different back east. Our local track disqualifies deep stagers. You have both bulbs lit or you lose. I'll do some research for you at Bandimere this weekend.

Sorry i got lost i didn`t realize there were 2 pages to this post already and left off at the end of the 1st page. Is Brian banned from the site? I have never met him exept for talking to him on here and have read many of his posts, i know alot of people get on his case about the whole BSE thing, but was his comment really bad enough to ban him from the site? i know i am getting away from the point on this post here and i will not post on this thread again unless it pertains to the subject material. I know that the coment was somewhat uncalled for, but i was just wondering why the ban?? Please don`t hold this agenst me, i do not want a bad rap on this site, and i don`t want an argument but i just wanted to know. If you don`t want to carry the subject in this post and email is fine, or you don`t need to reply at all if you don`t want.

Sorry for taking up room on this post guys

Originally posted by 69RS/SS350:
Well certainly things may be different back east. Our local track disqualifies deep stagers. You have both bulbs lit or you lose. I'll do some research for you at Bandimere this weekend. Mike, to the best of my knowledge, deep staging at Bandimere is allowed only in DOT, they must register that way, and will have "Deep" written next to their number so the tower knows it.
graemlins/waving.gif

BTW, I guess we'll find out Friday!... :cool:

thats pretty neat, here in division 1 i don`t know of any tracks that do that. I guess ya learn somthing new everyday, i have heard of tracks proposing it but never heard of any going through with it, its kinda neat to hear how different rules are division to division

BTW, I guess we'll find out Friday!... :cool:

Don, I'll be there for the big camp out Thursday nite. Come by, bring beer and food. :D graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by CamaroNOTcamero:
I think we're debating just fine on our own, I happen to have alot of respect for Onovakind's opinion, but respectfully disagree with him, so I'd appreciate it if you'd Get off my back and let us debate.
Drag67Camaro may learn something from this, becuase if he's a drag racer he'll NEED to know this as soon as he wants to be something more then a 1st round runner up.
Staging position has EVERYTHING to do with 60ft ET's as well as R/T's so it's RELATIVE. That's right, we're not cussing, we're discussing.
I didn't say that shallow staging would win you any races, I just said that errors made in a shallow staging position will make a smaller difference in your overall reaction time than errors made in a deeper staging position. An error of 1" in 15" is a much smaller error than 1" in 8". It's basic physics, nothing else. s = ½at². This was true in 1963 and it is still true in 2003.

Let's say that I'm a well practiced light cutter, with a very consistent .20 human reaction time to the bulb of my choice. I have done extensive testing on my car and it accelerates promptly at 16ft/sec². What is the best staging position for a .5 tree? How about a .4 tree? If I make a 1" error staging the car, how much difference does it make in my reaction time?

After much preparation, I drop in the BSE motor and my acceleration rate doubles to 32ft/sec². With my same .20 human reaction time, how much do I have to change my staging position to achieve the .50x starting line reaction time? If I make a 1" error in staging my new car, how much difference will it make in my starting line reaction time?

Here's another math problem for you. I start my 100 mph quarter mile run in the center of the lane, at 400' out I have drifted 10' to the left. I correct only to end up 10' to the right of center at the 900' mark. I again correct the car and go across the finish line centered on the track. My heads up opponent cuts the same light as me and goes perfectly straight down the track and runs .005 over. Can I beat him without breaking out?

That's it I am going to bed! I love math problems but I'm too tired to think about it right now! The answer to the last question is...No. Thanks oneofakind now I have something to think about that will keep me awake another two hours! graemlins/clonk.gif

All things being equal, 67 would win with ~3.5-4.0 inches to the good at the finish line with the conditions given. The clocks would show 67 running .001 to the good, but, would not show that fourth decimal place, XX.XXX8 sec. The total distance estimated 67 would be an additional 8.0-8.5 inches.

Clocks would show 12.001 on a 12.00 dial-in, but, internally, clock would be 12.0008 sec.

onovakind67

i don`t think you would break out in that situation because you are swaying down the track, and the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, so if he went straight, and you were squirly, wouldn`t he have a better chance to break out? am I right or did i read something wrong?

Originally posted by Drag67Camaro:
thanks for the replies guys, i did that in my drive way and about 1100 the car starts rolling, ill try launching at that but my car feels powerless from 0-15mph, i bet a 2200 stall or so with some 373s would be good but i'd have to wait to put that on in the winter, i agree neutral drop is terrible but i wanted to hear what you guys had to say since i am far from an expert, i'd like my 60ft to be about 1.9 and running low 13s, i raced on my 265/14 Radial TAs and when i shifted into 2nd it broke em loose bad , i have a very strong shift kit, posi kicks in once in a while since its an open rear, ill be running this friday so ill post an update, thanks again for the help,
Adam 2.3-2.5 really isn't a bad 60 ft considering your low stall, radial tires and open rear end, thats a lot going against you. If you do your own work then a new stall would be my first choice on a cost/improvement basis.

below is graph of a few 60fts when I was learning to launch a stick car, granted its a stick, but you can see what the difference the launch rpm makes, I also learned the importance of clutch control. The Green graph totally bogged, the Red graph spun hard and resulted in wheel hop, and the Black graph was my best and it was about 0.17 sec better. I believe I'm now traction limited and will improve that next.

Good luck, and remember making changes, figuring things out is all part of the fun!
Marc


note: the grpah below is with a rollout, I start to let the clutch out about -0.4 sec.
http://sfcamaro.home.mindspring.com/web/new60ft.jpg

here is the only run I have with the auto, you can see rpms go up while the acceleration stayed about the same (.45 g's) at the start and then it hooks and the rpms drop and the acceraltion goes up, this car made a lot more low end torque and was hard to keep from spinning even with an off idle start, but could only muster 2.5 ish 60ft with 245 khumo mx's. If you do make any changes (converter or gears) you may find you'll be way short on traction also and still not have 1.9 60's, so you may need tires either way.

Hope this helps,
Marc


http://sfcamaro.home.mindspring.com/web/auto60ft.jpg

thanks for all the replies guys, i think that CNC guy did get carried away, i just put my slicks on 28x10.5x15 ET Drag and they fit great, i did notice a drop in acceleration, will that affect my times by a lot? before when i shifted the TH350 into 2nd it would spin the tires til i let off so i was wondering if the slicks will do more harm than good? i plan on getting a 2200ish stall and 373 posi this winter, agian thanks for all the advice, ill have new times posted late friday nite
Adam

Originally posted by NHRA1877:
onovakind67

i don`t think you would break out in that situation because you are swaying down the track, and the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, so if he went straight, and you were squirly, wouldn`t he have a better chance to break out? am I right or did i read something wrong? It would take you about .004 seconds longer to get to the finish line due to the indirect route, which adds about 8" to your quarter. This would give the other lane a better chance of breaking out, but also give you a better chance of losing.

Today i changed my spark plugs and faced the new ones with the gap pointed straight up so its by the valves, i heard it helps a bit, my stepdad also added this curve thing in the distributor and it feels a bit quicker off the line, so if it doesnt rain tomrow ill race and post the results
thanks
Adam

Uh, actually I think that the gap should go toward the piston with the electrode angled slightly toward the exhaust valve - not gap toward the valves. Maybe that's what you meant . . . indexing plugs is supposed to be worth only 2 or 3 HP anyway.

Anyway - good luck.

Thanks Eric68 I guess they were pointed the wrong way lol, but i ran on friday and had about 15 runs staying at 14.0-14.2, the slicks hurt the ET without a low gear, so i definietly think ill be putting a 373 or 390 in it soon, what do you think my ET's would be then? my 60fts are terrible at 2.2-2.4, i have a 323 gear now with 28'' tire, thanks for all the replies and help
Adam

Track Results
Well the Camaro wasnt ready so I took my stock 87 Vette. Lots of fun but not terribly quick with 2.59 rear end my best was 14.6 at 103mph. My reaction time steadily improved however with a best of .140. Leaving on the last yellow really worked for me. Drag racing is farrrrrr out!

My perfect light (.000) in competition at Denver Super Chevy Sunday may qualify me to post a reply but I'm not tellin! Vega Wagons rule!

Drag67, glad to see things improving. Drove the 67 for the first time last Saturday. Tested the converter and it held 3000 RPM's before the wheels started to move. Should be good to go when we hit the 1/4 mile. :D