I like the idea of a 67-69 camaro being able to perform as well or better as a new sports/performance car. For my next project camaro I want an all around performance car but not just a race car. I would like to spend no more than 30-40K, and here is what I've come up with so far. Front suspension, I would go with the complete Global west package. I'm not sure on the rear but it would not be leaf springs, I'm leading toward a three link, oval track style mounting with coil-overs, and narrowed 9". Oringinal looking tubs would be made to hold a large tire. Front wheels 17x8, with 4.25" back spacing, with 255/45 ZR17. Rear would be a 335/40 ZR17 on a 17x10 wheel.
Power train:Motor would be a 540 cid with Dart pro-1 heads, roller, Force Fuel ingection custum EFI, like to get around 700hp. Transmision would have to be a stick so I belive a Tremec is rated to handle the most power, or possibly a T-56.
Body would be a 67 or 68 because I like them just a little more than a 69. To offset the extra weight of the big block I may consider fiber glass fenders, innner fenders, and defenitly a cowl hood.
Interior would remain relatively stock in appearence except for some recaro seats, auto-meter gauges and a vintage air system.
I have alot more ideas but I don't want to bore you anymore, it's just fun to think about my next pro-touring style camaro. Going for a cross between the Big Red 69 camaro, and the Steilow thrasher camaro. What do you think, any ideas or projects of your own in the making. 1st gen camaro's rule!

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68 468 700R4

You might look into the Art Rasumussen front subframe which uses Corvette front suspension pieces. The basic Corvette geometry was maintained and there is no telling how much in R&D GM spent designing it. Also, the Rasmussen frame is lighter than stock.

Anyone can make power with a big block http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif It takes a real man to make the same power with a small block http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

Why not go with a large displacement small block. Kits are available up to 454 ci and you don't have the extra weight. To make up for the extra 100 cubes, install a centrifugal supercharger or a turbo (see this month's Chevy High Performance for a cool turbo article. They say 650 hp with a mild 350, EFI, and a single turbo is easily in reach). Agree on the stick.

I am building my 69 Camaro along these lines right now. I am trying to talk the wife into the Tremec 5 speed (hopefully to be installed this spring). The current Muncie and 3.73 rear gears don't mix well on the highway.

Also, you can't build a pro touring car without the giant 13 inch Baer disc brakes with the 6 piston Alcon calipers.

Well said. Build a monster light-weight mouse. The weight savings of the SBC, ARDF frame in addition to the fiberglass front end will make a big difference. My front end with all steel panels and hood, ls1 and ardf suspension weighs 200+ pounds less than the stock front end with a small block. I'll guess a SBC is close to 100 lbs lighter than a BBC.

Check out my project at http://communities.msn.com/cormaro

A small block would be a better choice as far a shedding weigh, but to get the h.p. figures I'm wanting I think a big block is the only way to go. I liked Stielows 18* motor but I'm sure that is a 15k+ enginge, and you could build a awesome 540 for under 10k. If you consider a small block with a turbo or supercharger, all that weight will add up to be close to the BB al. heads. A turbo engine with intercooler and other excessories may even be more.The art ram. front suspension looks great but it appears to me that with steering and front Baer brakes you're over 9k, seems a little steep for just a front suspension.

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68 468 700R4

It must be nice to have that kinda cash. I would strongly consider going with a fourth gen LS-1.

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68SS ZZ4, 4sp T-10, 12 bolt, getting painted

78Z28, 330hp vortec, TH350, 10 bolt (just finished)

4th gen are nice but they just do'nt have the style of a 1st gen.

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68 468 700R4

One of the coolest things about trying to define the ultimate Camaro is all the ideas everyone gets for their own ultimate Camaro. I spent a number of years trying to define what I wanted. It's not the ultimate, but it's been a hoot for me to drive.

My car is a 67 SS convertible, ARDF front clip, 96 vette rear suspension, big block, Richmond 6spd tranny, big honkin' wheels and tires, brakes that will bruise you with the harness', comfy seats, and generally some of the goodies to make it fun for just about any trip.

I try to drive it any time it's not raining. When it rains, I take my 67 Chevelle.


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Bryan
bryan@msn.com
http://members.xoom.com/BSDesigns

a guy i meet at the track was running 9.25's @143-7 in an s-10...to my suprise it was an all aluminum 434ci...out of a sprint car no less...so just goes to show ya smallblocks can make th HP. (even if its alum.)

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[URL=http://hometown.aol.com/dagwould1/
68 Camaro

I am jealous that you got the cash to do this but I would try a killer small block. Nothing like being able to take out a big block with a small block. Like others have said take a look at this months CHP very good articles.And there is one with a 67 that has a ARDF front clip and also a irs from ARDF. But if you got the cash then build a crazy trubo motor. Good luck with your project.

You´ll need one of these;
http://home.swipnet.se/mechanixracing/Öppenvxl2.jpg
or a similar Jericho or a Sayenz
http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

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DVC-2000.Racing
482 cubes of fogger injected thunder in a 71 z.
racing@mbox303.swipnet.se (http://racing@mbox303.swipnet.se)

Who make that tranny? What kind of gear ratios can you get? What about overdrive? How much?

MarkM,

The Rassmussen front end is no where near $9,000, its more like $4,000. The subframe costs $1,900 and you can get the rest of the parts for the remainder, especially if you get the Corvette parts used. I called and got all of the info.

Also, when they make the 4th gen doors out of good ole steel, I'll buy one. I can't stand the sound they make when you close those cheap plastic doors.

Liberty builds them still,based on the DNE housing.
Ratios?
Anything your heart desires http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

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DVC-2000.Racing
482 cubes of fogger injected thunder in a 71 z.
racing@mbox303.swipnet.se (http://racing@mbox303.swipnet.se)

Life must be pretty tough to have 40k to spend on a camaro. I am trying to build one for no more than 15k, and it's gonna take a LONG time to complete that project. I only say that because I am jealous. I would spend that on mine in a second if it were possible for me to do it. Good luck, and have fun.....(how could you not have fun with that budget!!!) =)

Wow that post was a while back. That price is out of my budget, it's more like a budget I hope to have someday. I must say my ideas have changed some since this post. Like I would rather have the Rasmussen subframe and a SB2 headed all aluminum small block. It's fun to dream.

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68 468 700R4, and here it is;
mutert23 (http://home.earthlink.net/~mutert23/)

I think the "trick" is to build the car "just" mild enough to be fun on the street while not sucking the gas tank dry in an hour, or one that has more power than you can hook up on the street.

I'm thinking about an aluminum 427 small block with 18 degree heads like the "Thrasher" Steilow engine.
That had 615 hp and I think it was pretty streetable.
I gotta add up what it will cost!
That Motown 415 is cool too!
What HP did the SB2 engine make that Steilow built for the "Red Witch"?

Anyone got front and rear weights for a Camaro with the ARD subframe installed?
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 01-16-2001).]

Steilows 18* 427 is awesome. Also remember that white 69 camaro that Comp Cams built, it has SB2 heads, that engine is really awesome, check it out http://www.compcams.com/69camaro.html .

If you are going with a mouse, at least put the mini big block heads on it. At 260+ intake cc's, they are about what bb Merlin oval ports are that Lingenfelter pushes for torque and hp power.
If you go cast-iron block, get one a them small blocks that with a little fancy boring, can go to 4.25" and make a 427.

If you want a big block, go with a low deck 4.7" bore x 4.375" stroke for a schosh over 600 inches. Cam for torque and 5,000+rpm (on the low side) and gear accordingly. With this much power, you probably could run outa gear unless you have a double O.D. and tall rear gears.
IMHO. pdq67

By mini-big block heads are you referring to SB2's or a Canted valve head?

Ok - one more opinion here if you don't mind . . . If you're doing all that work on the suspension keep the motor light - like an aluminum small block stroked to to 440 - 454 CID. Get them big flow canted valve heads PDQ67 is talking about and you got one mean mother that will both run and turn. 700 horses with the right parts is definately doable with a naturally aspirated small block - might cost more than a big block though.

Ive got an opinion too, well actaully this is just my version of what would be the ultimate camaro.

Start with a 68 body style

Add a twin turbo 427 efi small block(run on pump gas of course. approx 1000+hp would be nice http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Six speed sequential shift tranny, for clutchless upshifts.

coilovers on all four corners.

BIG Bear brakes

16" wheels in order to have great handling AND some sidewall wrinkle for off the line traction.

These are just some of the main points of what i would want to build if i had the $$$$. The car would be equally at home winning footbrake bracket races at the drags as it would be taking firsts in autocross/open track events(i.e. One Lap)Well maybe not at One Lap, i would have Steinlow to deal with http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by jvolk81 (edited 01-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by jvolk81 (edited 01-17-2001).]

MarkM,

The mini big block heads are the "splayed valve" ones. The SB-2's are one of a kind, copy of nothing but themselves. pdq67

I just found the ultimate Camaro, go to www.pro-touring.com (http://www.pro-touring.com) under pro touring cars, Mark Steilows new project. I liked his other creations but this one lookes superior to the rest, I love it.

I am in the final stages of building a 700hp/600tq 434 small block. It is based off of a Dart Iron Eagle (GM Rocket Block) featuring 400 mains, raised cam, BBC cam bearings, .800" spread pan rails, and 9.325" deck.

The motor includes a Crower 4340 billet 4.00" UltraLight crank, Crower billet 4340 6.125" stroker rods with ARP Custom Age 625+ bolts, JE forged 18 degree pistons, Dart aluminum CNC 18 degree heads (flow tested @28" at 360cfm/260cfm, Jesel shaft mounted rocker arms with 1.7/1.6 ratios, Jesel external dry timing belt, a custom Hogan's Racing Manifolds sheet metal EFI manifold with custom fuel rails and 65lb injectors, a Kinsler 105mm EFI throttlebody, a custom Comp cam with .646"/.621", 242/254, 112LSA, programmable sequential fuel injection with wide-band O2 sensor, a custom Stef's oil pan and a Titan Pro Series billet aluminum oil pump. All fasterners are ARP. Actually, this engine buildup is responsible for the creation of a new ARP main stud kit # for the Dart/GM Rocket blocks. Surprisingly, ARP did not offer a main stud kit for this block before I called them. After several failed attempts at using an off the shelf kit, we ordered each stud, bolt, nut, and washer individually. The problem is the studs are 1/2" longer than normal, and the rear cap features 1/2" diameter studs, rather than the common 7/16" studs. In next years ARP catalog the kit PN will be 184-5403, but you can order it now.


The machine work was done by Fast Times Motorworks of NMCA championship fame (Chuck Samuels, Nick Scavo, etc.). The assembly and installation was done by me. This motor is going into a street driven, '82 Corvette in preparation for One Lap of America. After this years' One Lap, we're swapping the cam, pistons, and exhaust valves and adding a pair of intercooled Turbonetics turbochargers with a goal of 1500hp.

Complete details can be found at:
434 Specifications (http://www.geocities.com/monty_williams/434specifications.html)



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Guys, guys guys, now I know small blocks are fine, but for the "ULTIMATE" Camaro who can beat John Moss's idea of an aluminum BBC? They call it the ZL1, but displacement is 540+.

Donovan block,509-540ci( i prefer the bore/stroke ratio of the 509 cause it'll spin if you want thru 7000), small Dart heads (310-315), small roller and EFI.

Stick with a rat, just make it all alum.

Alloy Big block (relocated of course), C-5 T56 trans axle(paddle shifted)/s.l.a. front suspension with coilovers, 14" Alcon 12 puck calipers f/r, carbon fiber body panels, accessory air lift jacks(like on an indy car) and a cup holder that will fit the large
size Slurpee.

What the heck, its only money.....speed is just a question of money, how fast do you want to go?

Tom

Ok!!

Dig out that story on Big Red. I know it's a road burning track car. But hey, it's probably the best. The only thing I would do differently would be to use a cast-iron 4.75" bore x 4.375" stroke engine in it so there would be no running outa power at ALL!!!

And I never did get hold a the brothers to chat with them over the web about their car and whats happening to it now. pdq67

O.K. This is it:
1968 Camaro
'00 383 LS1 engine
97 T56 corvette transaxle with coil overs, and narrowing
Custom fuel tank where rear seat "used to be" behind a custom firewall- That way you never have to worry about fuel loevel throwing off weight distribution
Wayne Due Subframe with Global West bushings
Baer 14" 4 piston Alcon calipers
HRE 18" 545 3 pc rims with BFG G-Force tires
BMW Xeon lights
RS lower valence with brack ducts in parking lamp holes
Recaro seats
Fiberglass fenders, hood, and deck lid
THAT is the ULTIMATE pro touring car. Says me.
Tyler

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1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

And let's not forget the fuzzy dice. They'd look killer flying straight back on a good launch.

OK,
1. A 1969 Camaro body reproduced in carbon fiber, (hey! we're dreamin' right?) chopped, channeled super low, the bottom of the grille is on the pavement, there IS no lower valence panel, it has a flat floor pan except for the full ground effects.
Integrated roll cage tied into the front and rear suspension, which is indy car type stuff.
The engine sits behind the driver (mid engine) and is a twin turbo 540+ aluminum big block with 2000+ hp.

3. The whole car weighs 1500 lbs.
4. a six speed transaxle is used.
5. The body has a carbon fiber wing on the rear.
6. Did I mention the JATO rockets for the long straightaways?

7. Oh, and I got Michael Schumacher to drive it for me, and, I lied a bit (snicker) and told him you've been talkin trash about how he "can't drive" He's kinda pissed off, and want's to teach you a lesson! (giggle)

Do you think I went too far?
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 01-20-2001).]

Monte W,
You have a great page. I'm going to give it some serious study as that type engine is what I've been thinking about building.
But after I add it all up, I may chicken out!

You are going to have a first class engine there!
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Where can I find information on the Big Red Camaro? I searched the posts and came up empty.

Thanks in advance.

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I like your idea l88 thats the manly way out!!!