So, I have a 67 327/210hp car with a Powerglide. I pulled the engine and transmission out and the engine is at the machine shop getting rebuilt (was .030 over and will now be .040 over - very little wear on the cylinder walls... no scoring or anything) and I bought the Edelbrock Performer RPM top-end package. So, my dilemma has been deciding which transmission to go with.

I have 99% decided to go standard and go with a Muncie M20 wide-ratio (I have the 3.08 rear-end - or so I have been told. Perhaps I should verify that...). I found a guy up in the Orange County area (I'm in San Diego) who has one already re-built (larger counter-gear) and has a Hurst shifter with linkage for my Camaro (used, but he says it's in mint condition - haven't seen it yet). I have negotiated with him to give me the transmission (1 year warranty) and shifter/linkage for $1250 cash. Is this a reasonable price?

To my understanding, all I need after that is the clutch/brake pedals, flywheel, bellhousing, and shifter boot at some point. Am I missing anything?

Forgive my ignorance if there is something glaring that I have overlooked. I have never swapped a transmission at all, much less gone from an auto to a standard. What about master/slave cylinders?

Thanks!

Jeff

Edit: By the way, I wasn't specifically looking for this, but it is an 010 casting, so it is technically correct for my 67, too...

Jeff, you didn't mention the clutch fork or pilot bushing. The fork moves the throwout bearing and activates the clutch. You may need a longer speedo cable depending on what trans you use. Most muncies have the speedo drive on the pass side, opposite of a powerglide. Aside from that and bolts for the BH, clutch and trans, you'll be good.

A master and slave cylinder would be used if you want to convert to a hydraulic clutch activation instead of mechanical linkage. More expensive to do, probably.

With a 3.08 rear gear you may want to consider a trans with a deeper first gear like a super t-10. You could use one with a 3.42 low for example and have a 10.53 effective ratio in first.(3.42x3.08= 10.53) Good for tiresmokin' take offs and low rpm highway cruisin with those 3.08's.:D

Hurst makes a nice backup light switch that you can find on Amazon. You will have to run two wires from it....to the connection at the base of the column. You will also have to use a "jumper" connection on the Neutral Safety Switch plug otherwise the car won't start. Or, plug the switch in like you would normally do, and make sure your column is in the "park" position, and the car should start. For sure go with the M20 over the M21 due to its taller (2.52 I think) 1st gear vs only a 2.20 gear in the M21. You'll burn up clutches with those 3.08's otherwise. I was told 3.73's minimum if you have a M21. Also, make sure the linkage will allow for your shifter to come through a console correctly.

Jeff, while I love manual trans, seeing that your car is a powerglide, I would recommend a auto 4 speed, like a 200r4 or a 700r4. With your 3.08 rear, the 700r4 would be better, but you would have to shorten the driveshaft.

Beside what you mentioned, you will need to relocate the neutral safety and backup switches and rewire for the 4 speed switches. And be prepared for slipping the clutch a bunch to get the car going (combo of lower hp engine and poor rear gear). If you find out your gear is a 2.73 (more likely with a PG), you will need to swap rear gears too. Luck!

Excellent. Thanks for the advice. I guess the first thing to do this evening after work would be to jack up the rear end and spin the driveshaft to see approximately what my gearing is now. That 3.42 first would indeed be a deep gear! The M20 has the 2.52 first gear. :)

I'll look for the clutch fork and pilot bushing (any recommendations). When looking for the clutch (thinking about a Hays kit), should I go with a 10.5" or 11"? I realize the BH I get depends on that... this car is just a fun daily-driver for me. I don't plan on tracking it at all. So, are there other advantages to the different sizes besides just being a bit more robust?

I wasn't thinking clearly when I asked about the master/slave cylinders - I definitely am not wanting to transform it to a hydraulic setup. At least, not now. :)

Jeff, while I love manual trans, seeing that your car is a powerglide, I would recommend a auto 4 speed, like a 200r4 or a 700r4. With your 3.08 rear, the 700r4 would be better, but you would have to shorten the driveshaft.

Beside what you mentioned, you will need to relocate the neutral safety and backup switches and rewire for the 4 speed switches. And be prepared for slipping the clutch a bunch to get the car going (combo of lower hp engine and poor rear gear). If you find out your gear is a 2.73 (more likely with a PG), you will need to swap rear gears too. Luck!

Ah. I realized I mentioned the top-end package, but didn't mention what it's doing for those who aren't familiar with that particular package. It will make it a ~400hp car as it is a new dual-plane air-gap intake, new 64cc 2.02/1.60 aluminum heads, and a mild cam (350-7102). I haven't decided on which carb just yet, but I know it will be a 650cfm.

Hurst makes a nice backup light switch that you can find on Amazon. You will have to run two wires from it....to the connection at the base of the column. You will also have to use a "jumper" connection on the Neutral Safety Switch plug otherwise the car won't start. Or, plug the switch in like you would normally do, and make sure your column is in the "park" position, and the car should start. For sure go with the M20 over the M21 due to its taller (2.52 I think) 1st gear vs only a 2.20 gear in the M21. You'll burn up clutches with those 3.08's otherwise. I was told 3.73's minimum if you have a M21. Also, make sure the linkage will allow for your shifter to come through a console correctly.

Thanks for the heads up. I will check that out. So, with that jumper wire on the Neutral Safety Switch, that basically overrides that completely so I'll have to be careful to make sure I don't attempt to start it in gear without the clutch being depressed?

If I decided to upgrade the rear end in the future, what gearing would you recommend for the M20 with the 2.52 first?

Also, what about the column button that most cars started to use when turning the key to "Off"? I'm not familiar with factory-standard-transmission Camaros, so maybe they didn't even come with this...

With the M20 2.52 first and a 3.73 rear you'd have 9.5 effective. Pretty nice for take off.

I'd keep the 3.08s and go deep on the first. My car has a 3.50 first and 2.73 rear. Great on the highway.

Here's a useful thread with photos of the parts.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=163114

I'm not familiar with super T-10. Is that just a gearset for the Muncie? If so, what does it change 2nd gear or the rest of the gears to?

The only unfortunate part about that would be that this guy has an M20 already rebuilt and done, ready to go. How much work is it to swap in that gearset?

Go to this link just below and scroll down. It will list transmission ratios.
http://www.mortec.com/notepg4.htm

The Borg Warner T10 had ratios ranging from 2.23 to 3.44 for first gear.

Switching to a 700 R4 automatic might be a lot easier and less expensive. Its ratios for 1st gear to 4th are... 3.06 - 1st , 1.62 - 2nd, 1.00 - 3rd, and 0.70 - 4th

I think I would recommend that route unless you have your mind made up to go with a 4 speed.

Is the guy you might buy the Muncie from named Bill? If so, I may have bought parts from him before. Good guy. He might have some Borg Warner transmissions too but if it's the guy I know - he specializes in Muncies.

My car was originally an automatic too. I took out the column, replaced the bearings and turnsignal switch, cutoff the mount for the shifter and the "other thing", patched the holes and had it painted. It works and looks great. I also run an M20 with Eaton 3.42 gears, and a 350 with about 325hp. So far so good but I really haven't driven it enough to know if I like the combo. And Yes, the car will jump if you try to start it in gear w/o depressing the clutch. Also, if you manually turn/spin the column away from Park...the car won't start.

Also, if you manually turn/spin the column away from Park...the car won't start.

That's a cool, stealthy anti-theft device!:yes:

Go with the M20. You'll need that lower 1st gear with the 3.08s. Also, be sure to get a GM clutch fork for a first gen. Most aftermarket forks won't work. I got a fresh rebuilt M20 about 4 years ago for $1050 and a new hurst shifter and linkage for around 300, so your price isn't off that much.

Just an FYI....I see a 403 bellhousing in the classified section on this site. It will work with a 10.4" clutch setup.

FWIW, my 307-powered '69 was originally a TH350 auto w/ 2.73 rear and I swapped out the auto for a Super T10 with the 3.42 1st gear that we had "spare" out of an '81 trans am. Even with "just" a 307, the 9.33 overall 1st gear worked well. I'm (slowly) upgrading the driveline in preparation for a bigger engine and stepped up to a TKO600 (5-speed) with the 2.87 1st. I now have a 7.83 overall first and I definitely need to work more launching the car and 1st gear performance is noticeably worse (Rear end upgrade in the near future will fix this). I think if I lived someplace with more hills (gee I miss the east coast....) I'd probably get sick of feathering the clutch on every launch.

With a 327, you should have more torque than my 307, and the M20/3.08 will give you a very similar 7.76 overall 1st. I'd definitely look into the "wide ratio" Super T10 with the 3.42 1st gear since I think it'll be a better compromise for you.

You can search here, but a few comments on adapting the ST10 to a 1st gen:
-- You'll need a new trans yoke (and fron U-joint) for the driveshaft since the ST10 uses the 32-spline (TH400-style) yoke.
-- Since the ST10 was never offered in the 1st gen and shifter/shift linkage is a bit different than the Muncie, you'll need to work a little bit to get the shifter mounting/linkage sorted out. I made my own plate to adapt the Muncie parts, but I think Crash (crashent here) can help you out with bolt-on parts.

The Super T10 is not exactly a well-loved transmission, and (like anything else) won't live all that long behind a lot of torque. Cast iron case versions were introduced later and are stronger, but for a street driven 327 I think the aluminum cased job would be fine. The up-side of their lack of popularity is that they tend to be cheaper than a Muncie... Note that the Richmond T10 4-speed is essentially the same trans as the Super T10.

Lots of great Super T10 info here: http://fiedlerh.home.att.net/BW.htm

Just an FYI....I see a 403 bellhousing in the classified section on this site. It will work with a 10.4" clutch setup.

Nice. Good lookin' out! So, this brings up one of my other questions, what's the advantage to going to an 11" clutch setup instead of 10.4"?

I've decided to go with the M20 for sure. The worst case is I'm not too happy with first gear and I may decide to tackle putting in a T56 or some other manual down the road. I've only had one automatic car in my life and I hated it (also an F-body, as it turns out). Given the crappy clutch take-up I dealt with in my GTI VR6, I doubt I will hate this one too much. :)

The best case is I absolutely love it and I already know it will be worlds better than my Powerglide, especially after the engine is around 400hp at the crank. The Muncie seems relatively drop-in and this guy has it built up already with the Hurst shifter and linkage ($1250 for everything). I will probably pick it up tomorrow morning.

My big decision was hey, if I'm going to spend around $1000-1200 altogether to upgrade the Powerglide to a 200-4r or 700-r4, I might as well spend a few hundred more and just get the manual that I really want anyways.

Yep, if you really want a 4 speed, go for it.

The 11 inch clutch will handle more power than the 10.5 clutch. I would recommend that, and would probably also suggest that you go with a scatterproof bellhousing - not an aluminum one.

I am running a 12 inch clutch behind my 468, but that would not be needed for what you are doing.

Okay, so here is a quick parts list. Please let me know if I am missing anything. With how scattered I've been lately at work, I wouldn't be surprised if I miss (or erroneously include) something obvious:

Freshly rebuilt M20 wide ratio
Hurst shifter + linkage
11" Clutch Kit (I'm thinking Hays diaphragm type... any recommendations?)
621 bellhousing (original or repro)
Backup light/neutral safety switch wiring
GM Clutch Fork
Pilot Bearing
Clutch Linkage kit
Pedal Kit
Any associated bolts/hardware needed but not included in any of the kits

Will any other work need to be done to install the M20 such as shortening the driveshaft, making clearance in the tunnel, etc.?

Thanks!

Edit: Oh yeah... and a flywheel - any recommendations? I know nothing about flywheels...

The larger flywheel/clutch/bh will require you to change the snout of your starter. The BH also needs an inspection plate (cover).

Drive shaft, yoke and tunnel are all good to go.:thumbsup:

For General Street/HWY I would suggest the the M20 with 3.55 to 3.08 Gears unless your into Road Race then I would choose the M21 or 22 with them gears.

If your into Street/Strip with 3.73's or 4.10's gears then use the M21 or 22; however, the M20 may be OK with the 3.73's with Larger Diameter of Tire.

Okay. Either it's too early for me or my rear gear is suuuuuper tall. I jacked up the rear-end, released the parking brake, and rotated a tire and counted the number of FULL driveshaft rotations. It was less than two full rotations - what in the world does that mean - that my rear gear is less than 2.0:1 ?

EDIT: Indeed it is too early for me. I forgot I have an open diff, so I lowered one side of the car and rotated the wheel twice. I counted about 2.75 turns, so I'm guessing I have a 2.73.

http://www.camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml

http://www.camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml

I just installed (have not had the pleasure of driving yet--until I reassemble the interior as well) an M-20, and have 3.73 gears with a 27-inch rear tire...hopefully this is not "too much"...

To check Gear ratio on an Open-Diff, you have to prevent one wheel from turning (Get your buddy to hold it) then turn the drive shaft noting the # of turns it makes to 1 rotation of the ONE Wheel.

Seems there's something else to it. I can't remember if you have to let the Wheel turn Twice noting the number of times the drives shaft turns - It's been 20 years since I did this but not to difficult to figure out ;o)

A Posi is Simple: Just jack up the rear and turn the drive shaft and let BOTH Wheels Turn.

Actually I would think that combination would get you off the line quick. I don't think it would be a problem.

If you feel it ends up being "too much" after you drive it, you could switch to a slightly larger tire.


I just installed (have not had the pleasure of driving yet--until I reassemble the interior as well) an M-20, and have 3.73 gears with a 27-inch rear tire...hopefully this is not "too much"...

So, I have a 67 327/210hp car with a Powerglide. I pulled the engine and transmission out and the engine is at the machine shop getting rebuilt (was .030 over and will now be .040 over - very little wear on the cylinder walls... no scoring or anything) and I bought the Edelbrock Performer RPM top-end package. So, my dilemma has been deciding which transmission to go with.

I have 99% decided to go standard and go with a Muncie M20 wide-ratio (I have the 3.08 rear-end - or so I have been told. Perhaps I should verify that...). I found a guy up in the Orange County area (I'm in San Diego) who has one already re-built (larger counter-gear) and has a Hurst shifter with linkage for my Camaro (used, but he says it's in mint condition - haven't seen it yet). I have negotiated with him to give me the transmission (1 year warranty) and shifter/linkage for $1250 cash. Is this a reasonable price?

To my understanding, all I need after that is the clutch/brake pedals, flywheel, bellhousing, and shifter boot at some point. Am I missing anything?

Forgive my ignorance if there is something glaring that I have overlooked. I have never swapped a transmission at all, much less gone from an auto to a standard. What about master/slave cylinders?

Thanks!

Jeff

Edit: By the way, I wasn't specifically looking for this, but it is an 010 casting, so it is technically correct for my 67, too...
Jeff;

I have the same setup as you did with a 327 & 3.08 rear end and powerglide. I was wondering about both your engine mods (how they turned out) and what transmission you went with (I am considering an M20 as well)? Is there a number I can call you at to discuss?

thanks for your help, Rich