Im told my 454 in my 68 should have the 69 stands/mounts since it is the later long water pump design. I notice Ricks and others list the 69 as having a different part number.

I was looking at energy suspension 3-1117G mounts that are listed to cover all the years. They state that they are the early style tall and narrow type 2-3/8" between ears and 2-3/16" tall.

How does this compare with the 69 396 mounts that im supposed to have?

What im ultimately looking for here is maximum header clearance at the power steering box.

67-68 uses the short and wide engine mounts.
... 69 use the tall and narrow engine mounts.

Is there a reason you want to change the stands and mounts ? There really is no difference, in the engine position, that I am aware of. (from a 67/68 to a 69)

I think your water pump, is a short pump. (I looked at your old post)

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/waterpumps/BBSWP.jpg 5 3/4 "

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/waterpumps/BBLWP.jpg 7 1/4 "

Chevrolet used short water pumps on Big Block until at least 1972. So, it is possible for your alternator to be on the passenger side with a short water pump.

I think your real problem is your transmission crossmember. If it is not a Big Block crossmember with the tail moved to the passenger side 1/2", Your engine will sit crooked and your headers will not fit. To test this, unbolt the tail of your transmission from the crossmember and force it over 1/2". I have heard of people using a ratchet strap, to pull it over.

thanks I will check the waterpump measurement. The reason i was going to order new stands/mounts was because i am now questioning if i have small block stands in there. Since i dont know what is in there, i figured i would order a set of big block ones and compare. The people at Ricks are the ones that suggested the 69 mounts as being different and what was correct if i had the long pump. My block casting 3999289 I have found to translate to 72-79.

The tranny mount definately was changed as when i got the car they also gave me the original tranny mount with it. The one in there now appears to be aftermarket. It has a turbo 400 in it.

OK i just did some checking. The tranny crossmember i have is this http://www.rickscamaros.com/product.asp?pf%5Fid=CM%2D3&dept%5Fid=3524
It actually seems to be 1" closer to the passenger side in the tunnel then the drivers side. Measured from either the tranny output shaft center or the mount edge. Im pretty sure thats the mount since 1) i have a TH400. 2) its the only crossmember i have seen in catalogs with that welded tab on it for the mount. 3) They gave me the stock crossmember with the car when i bought it along with the original driveshaft, so i know they were both changed.

I also measured the waterpump. Hard to say exactly since the pulley is still on it but i think its the long. I got 6" to the edge of the 1st belt groove. I think the flange is way up inside the pulley bell which would make it the longer one acording to your diagram.

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/stang8s/camaro/camarowater2.jpg

I understand what you are saying. My question is on how close the back of the water pump is to the timing cover. I do not have a Big Block engine or I would check it. On Small blocks there is a larger gap there on Long water pumps. This is a picture of a Big Block with a Long pump.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/waterpumps/bbcwpa2.jpg

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/waterpumps/Picture481b.jpg

Here is a picture of 67/68 Big Block mounts. One side (passenger side) is quite a bit shorter. On the small block stands, they are almost the same height.

Passenger side = approx.
Drivers side = approx.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/engine%20and%20frame%20mounts/6768BBCFRMT.jpg

Its tough to measure in the car but mine seem to be aprox 3 and 3-1/2" tall each. Was your 2-1/2" to the hole center or the peak?? Mine is 2-1/2" if measured to the hole center on the drivers side and 3" to the hole center on the passenger side. Yes my passenger side mount is higher!?!? Oddly enough is i can tell they changed or had these out because they are both in with generic/incorrect hardware.

If measuring my motor from carb stud to fender it is closer to the passenger side though.

I wonder if they just have them in backwards and i need to swap them or if they are smallblock? (or both)

On the waterpump i thought it was the overall length that matters, not the space? I have 1-3/4" from the waterpump backplate to the timing cover flange where it bolts up.

From what i have found online, i have small block stands and that the big block stands are actually shorter.. Maybe this can help some of my air cleaner/hood clearance issues too?

Drivers should be 1-3/4" to the center hole and passenger 1-3/8" to the center hole

Jeff, From your measurements, you have 1968 Big Block frame mounts. However, the taller mount should be on the Driver's side. The offset is not really an offset. The engine "rolls" to the passenger side, as the mounts is shorter on that side.

The 67/68 frame mounts are taller, as the engine mounts are thicker.

For a 1969 :

Driver's side is 2.5 inches from base to the top of the bracket. It measures 1.75 inches from base to center of the bracket bolt hole. It is GM part # 3950113.

The passenger side bracket measures 2.0 inches from the base to the top of the bracket. It measures 1&3/8 inches from the base to the center of the bracket bolt hole.This is GM part # 3950114

On the small block stands, they are almost the same height.

If you want to read more, go to http://www.pozziracing.com/camaro_engine.htm

hmmm so maybe i just need to swap them. Will try that. Doesnt look like a fun job. thanks

I do not understand, why you measure the engine closer to the passenger side, if your mounts ARE backwards.

The hood is 49" wide. 49/2= 24 1/2" That would be the center. Now, the engine should be 1" closer to the passenger side (1/2" offset). That means 24" on the passenger side fender to the carburetor stud and 25" from the Drivers side fender to the carburetor stud. (These dimensions are approximate).

dunno. I have 2 posts that ended up sort of the same thing now.. TomP on the other post measured his that is known to have correct 69 stands and got 26-1/8" and 24-3/8"...
Mine comes out to 25-1/2 and 24-1/8"
So he has 5/8" more space on the drivers side.
He did add 2 washers under his mounts on the drivers side though

I guess we are getting to much variance on the fender locations. Although, I doubt Tom P's measurements. He has an opening of 50 1/2" , with a 49" hood that would leave a gap of 3/4" on each side ! I think, you will have to measure to the frame on each side, so we aren't measuring to taiwan fenders.

My measurements were to the lip inside the fender where it bolts on, so the hood opening would be larger.

I think i may just suck it up and buy the 69 frame stands and the energy suspension mounts and know i have the right stuff. I can use the mounts anyways as mine are really cruddy looking stock ones. So the extra $70 for the stands will save me $70 of wonder/aggrevation i think at this point. If the ones in there are 68 BB mounts i can likely sell them on ebay and get much of my investment back.

That should work.

Again, you want the tall and narrow mounts for a 1969. The short and wide are for 67/68.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/engine%20and%20frame%20mounts/EnergySuspensionEngineMounts.jpg

I guess we are getting to much variance on the fender locations. Although, I doubt Tom P's measurements. He has an opening of 50 1/2" , with a 49" hood that would leave a gap of 3/4" on each side ! I think, you will have to measure to the frame on each side, so we aren't measuring to taiwan fenders.

No Taiwan fenders here. The '69 cowl hood should be 49" wide at the front and 51" wide at the cowl. Jeff asked for measurements at the carb stud - 50-1/2" wide total is correct with reasonble gaps (1/4" or so)

My apologies Tom P. I wasn't thinking that the hood was tapered. My bad. I now think Jeff was measuring to a different spot on the fender. I still don't understand, if his dimensions show the engine to the passenger side, how his taller mount is on that side !

it could be my stands are not even camaro at all, who knows. The guys who put this together were real hacks. im finding all sorts of surprises!

Everything has been ordered from Summit and Ricks. Will let you all know what i find when i tear out the old parts and get the new ones in.. thanks for all the help

My apologies Tom P. I wasn't thinking that the hood was tapered.

No problem. Jeff is going through the same thing many of us have... a "simple" bolt on - BB headers - and ends up getting a lesson on frame stands, motor mounts, tranny crossmembers, etc.

Jeff are you having fun yet??:beers:

You said it Tom. Having a blast.
Cant wait for the new parts to come this week. One thing i noticed today when i re-read the Hooker install instructions again.. They say only take the bolt out of the drivers side motor mount when jacking the engine up for install space. I took them both out and jacked it up as much as i could. Actually had to undo the wiper motor cause the valve cover was hitting it and remove the fan shroud and dist cap. Maybe their method is better cause it jacks it up and to the pass side where my method was jacking it straight up.. Either way i got it in but it was when i let it down that all the problems became obvious! The new stands hopefully will solve all this.

Updates for those following along. Today my 69 BB engine stands and Energy Suspension mounts came in. First i have got to say it was a total pain in the rear to swap those stands. I must have 3-4 nuts inside my front subframe at this time. I suppose they will make it to the drain hole at some future date! The stands were in with 3/8" bolts which seemed a bit wimpy and not correct but i went with them, bigger bolts would have been just that much more difficult to deal with. Once the drivers side mount and stand were disconnected i still couldnt fit them out from under the engine, even with it jacked up all the way.. Took quite a bit of prying but i finally got them out. Passenger side came right out. Once out, i saw that they are wide mounts and small block stands. Both stands were basically the same height. Dunno how i measured one taller when they were in the car.

Got the new ones in. The position of the engine was totally different. Passenger side came way down and drivers side had to move forward quite a bit. So much so that i could not move the engine into position from underneath with the jack or from above prying with a 2x4... I had to take it down off the lift and get the engine hanging from my engine crane. I was then able to position it and get the bolts in.

The left/right measurement from the carb stud to the fenders curiously is still just a 1" offset to the passenger side but i can see quite a bit more daylight on the drivers side between the steering box and the block. In hindsight i would have liked to measure that spot from that top left steering box cover bolt to the block but didnt...

Hopefully either tomorrow or this weekend i will give the headers a try again..

thanks for all your help so far.

sounds like good progress - swapping the stands takes some patience:thumbsup:

It is much easier if you put the bolts in from below and the nut and lock washer on top. Getting the nut and lock washer on from inside the frame is almost impossible. Also if it gets loose the bolt will fall out and you will see a hole instead of a bolt head.

Good point.. The ones on my car were in from above so i kept them that way. I didnt even get lock washers in, there were none there when i took it apart. It did concern me a bit. Guess i will just keep a close eye on them and perhaps change them at a future date.

I'm not a fan of lock washers. You might want to read Carroll Smith's book on Fasteners. Facinating reading. Anyway, back on topic. I used a small socket with a dab of RTV to hold the nut and easily got it onto the bolt. I don't remember the combo but I used a swivel and some entension(s). Done it a few times. The first time was the worst! Glad to see your progress!

Wow. After all this the header still doesnt fit right! Much better but still one tube is hitting the corner of the power steering box. So i removed the top left corner ps box cover bolt and ground it to 1/2 thickness, reinstalled it minus its washer. I even ground a bit off the corner of the box casting there. Still no luck. So i dented the 1 tube in a bit, even though i hated doing it and both Summit and Hooker told me not to. Also added 1 set of washers between the block and the ES motor mount. Was able to get the header, gasket and all the bolts in and tight now. BUT the header is still hitting the corner of the ps box in that 1 spot. So the question now is. Does it matter? Will it cause excess vibrations in my steering wheel? Or will it make my PS fluid /box too hot?? Even if i dented it in more there is going to be a max of 1/8" clearance there.. Is it worth taking it all apart again and denting it more for the 1/8"? Im not sure what the temp diff in the box really will be between touching in 1 spot or 1/8" away in that spot. Id say either way its going to be VERY hot! What will this do? Cause my PS to fail? Fluid to boil??

So frustrating.. I have not even played with the passenger side yet!

Im leaning towards leaving it like this.. The engine torques towards the passenger side anyway and the ES mounts have very little movement

http://i679.photobucket.com/albums/vv154/stang8s/camaro/damnheaders.jpg

Jeff, that is strange. My #5 tube doesn't "hang over" the box like yours does. Below is a picture before any washers - very close. Maybe its just the camera angle.

I ended up with 3 washers and a 1/4" longer bolt on the motor mount for clearance. I'd recommend adding a few more washers and not denting the header anymore.

FWIW, I run Redline synthetic PS fluid and even with these headers the temps stay 150 deg range.

You are correct - you will see very little flex with the ES mounts - if you can get 1/8" clearance you should be OK

Tom did you put the 3 washers on all 3 mount bolts or did you tilt it by only putting them under certain bolts? I imagine at some point you mess up the other side and have to add the washers on the pass side to. Did you have to do that?

I added the same number of washers under all 3 bolts on the driver side and none on the passenger

ok cool. I will try to put some more spacers in. Id hate to have to take this thing out again! I had a hard time even getting 1 washer under each bolt though. With the engine jacked up, the stand sort of gets in the way of the mount when you try to space it... Guess you have to get a screwdriver or something between the block and mount to pull it away a bit.. Instead of trying to deal with washers i may just cut some lengths of pipe on my lathe.

I ended up pulling it out again and massaging the area a little more. Got it back in and plenty of clearance now in the corner. I think one edge just slightly touches still but hard to say.. Im calling it done. Got the passenger side all takin apart and thankfully it seems like that header will bolt right up. Then on to trying to squeeze the 3" exhaust in...

Glad to hear you are getting close:yes:

I ended up having to re-route the fuel line on the passenger side - the header on that side was close to the inside frame rail.

What kind of 3" exhaust are you planning?

I just held it up quick. Looked like my tranny cooler lines will need to be moved a bit. I have one of the Summit exhaust systems. I hear that they are not that great but the price was right and i figured i would at least give it a try for fit.