Hey all,

My father and i just purchased a '67 camaro. After a few days my father was driving the car and it became unresponsive. He was waiting at a stop light, and the car would not move. The engine runs/starts just as it did before, clutch linkage appears to work good, transmission runs through all gears with or without clutch pedal depressed. No noise was heard when the car stopped responding. Any ides on what is wrong?
Considering that the clutch is the problem we would like to replace it with a truly top notch clutch. While it is out we would like to replace the transmission as well. Preferably a 6 speed, but if a 5 speed comes highly recommended well consider it. any recommendations would be great!!
The car has a '69 Camaro small block 350 and a '67 stock muncie 4 speed transmission.

Feel free to ask questions is you have any! Thank your for any help!

First off - WELCOME to Team CAMARO - :hurray:

Any of the replacement street/performance clutch assemblies would fix just the clutch issues for you.

If you are interested in upgrading to a 5~6-speed, then do a 'search' using a key-word like "Kiesler" or "6-speed" - you'll get a ton of great threads form members with their experinces and information on duplicating their results.
Here's just one - http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98387&highlight=kiesler

Never overlook the 'search' function - it can be your best friend :thumbsup:

Mark,
Welcome to Team Camaro! This is the most awesome site for first gen. Camaro info. The folks on here are great and have so much knowledge and info and are willing to share.

Are you saying that you know the problem is the clutch? I couldn't quite tell what "unresponsive" meant. Is your question to help you diagnose the car's problem or to get recommendations on clutches and trannys?

From what I understand, the 5 speed Tremecs go in without modifying the tunnel and have the stock shifter location. I believe the 6 speeds need tunnel mods. You can get a full kit to swap to a Tremec for $2500- $3500 from Keisler or Classic Chevy 5 speed. They both sound like quality outfits. I plan on swapping to a Tremec once I get my car up and running.

The "search" function on this site is invaluable for getting past posts concerning whatever subject you're curious about. Also you can send "private messages" to a member if you have a more specific question for them- then they will e-mail you back. Just click on the person's name in the upper left hand corner and some info on them will come up.

Again, welcome,
John

Are you saying that you know the problem is the clutch? I couldn't quite tell what "unresponsive" meant. Is your question to help you diagnose the car's problem or to get recommendations on clutches and trannys?

From what I understand, the 5 speed Tremecs go in without modifying the tunnel and have the stock shifter location. I believe the 6 speeds need tunnel mods. You can get a full kit to swap to a Tremec for $2500- $3500 from Keisler or Classic Chevy 5 speed. They both sound like quality outfits. I plan on swapping to a Tremec once I get my car up and running.

Again, welcome,
John

John,

Im in search of both. I would like a diagnosis, as well as recommendations.

Im not 100% sure that it is the clutch. Unresponsive meant that when the clutch pedal is depressed there is no difference from when it is not. The gears shift through, and the engine will rev regardless of the clutch pedal position. I can say that is not the clutch linkage.

What would the performance differences be from a 5 speed to a 6 speed? is modifying the tunnel and the stock shifter position difficult? Is it worth the performance upgrade? will it effect the car cosmetically? I cant get prices ATM because they are closed, but what is the differential?

Any recommendations on a clutch?

Thanks,
Mark.

Mark,

Do you mean that the engine revs but the car doesn't move in any gear? Could be a worn out clutch or mis-adjusted linkage. So it's either slipping or won't disengage; we need to know which.

I'm not much of an expert on 5sp. vs. 6 sp. The choice will depend on what gear ratios you want (all the gears) and how much power your engine puts out as well as what kind of driving you will be doing (ie. racing). In my application, I'm looking for something which is the same ratio of 4.11 gears and a Muncie first gear(overall ratio= 10.35:1) and then a quite tall "high" gear of 2.25:1 so I'll be revving about 1800 at freeway speeds (for mpg). I can do all this with a Tremec 5 sp. and my 3.31 rear gears. I believe the Tremec 500 is rated at 500lbs of torque. There will be plenty of gears in between for street driving. You can look all the gear ratios of various trannys up on this site or on google. I haven't considered the 6 sp.
Richmond is the one I've heard of but there may be others- do a search.

Modifying the tunnel would mean welding some new steel panels in and I don't know about shifter position, but since I have a console I want to utilize it. Do a search on "Richmond 6 speed".

I'm not too up on clutches. I have a Centerforce (not the dual friction) but I haven't got the car running yet. I hear Ram and Zoom are good also.

Hope this helps,
John

Welcome!

There are a few option for different transmissions.

Tko 500 or 600 both 5 speeds, rated at 500 and 600 torque respectively, require no tunnel mods and are available only new aftermarket.

You can get a t-5, but they are rated at less than 250 hp, also a 5-speed, from an 80's camaro. Not really worth the time...

The option I am going with is a T-56 6-speed from a 4th gen camaro (or firebird, but there are 2 different styles in there or you could get a brand new one) should hold 450 hp, no tunnel mods other than a new hole for the shifter, which will be in a different spot.
Both are double overdrives, meaning 4th gear is still 1:1
There is also a richmond 6 speed which I know nothing about.

There are more options and many variables, I think its time for a lot of research.
I went with an ls-1 t-56 for many reasons, because I could buy a used one for cheap and it will work behind my Pontiac motor.

Good luck with the swap.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not sure if I missed part of the problem, but it sounds like a transmission problem more than a clutch issue.

Diagnosis:
Put the car on a level street.
Place trans in 4th gear. Engine off.
Push the car.
Car does not roll, bad clutch.
Car does roll, broken hub in clutch disc or as suggested, clutch out of adjustment, not engaging.

If a Muncie breaks internally, you'll know it, lots of noise and if severe, broken case, but there was no mention of any noise at time of failure.

Mark,

Do you mean that the engine revs but the car doesn't move in any gear? Could be a worn out clutch or mis-adjusted linkage. So it's either slipping or won't disengage; we need to know which.

Modifying the tunnel would mean welding some new steel panels in and I don't know about shifter position, but since I have a console I want to utilize it. Do a search on "Richmond 6 speed".

I'm not too up on clutches. I have a Centerforce (not the dual friction) but I haven't got the car running yet. I hear Ram and Zoom are good also.

Hope this helps,
John

Yes, the engine revs as if it is constantly in neutral. It does not matter whether the car is in 4th gear or 1st. The engine revs regardless. We drove it at a large parking lot the night before and were really stretching it out. It seemed to be slipping when we were doing this there was NO noise when the car failed to accelerate out of the stoplight. There is also no noise when we attempt to put drive the car now. I feel like if the clutch was trying to engage again and it was worn out we would hear metal grinding. Is this on track or am i shootin in the dark?

Diagnosis:
Put the car on a level street.
Place trans in 4th gear. Engine off.
Push the car.
Car does not roll, bad clutch.
Car does roll, broken hub in clutch disc or as suggested, clutch out of adjustment, not engaging.

If a Muncie breaks internally, you'll know it, lots of noise and if severe, broken case, but there was no mention of any noise at time of failure.

We're planning on going this, but there hasn't been a day that it hasn't rained in a week, so its been tough to work on the car. Soon as it gets dry enough we plan to do this. In response to the noise concern, there was no noise at the stoplight. no cracks, bangs or anything. Just wouldn't accelerate.

In response to the various transmission suggestions. Im going to consider all of these. I haven't looked at the Tko's or the LS that was recommended, but i have looked at the Tremecs and i like what i see. We were reccomended a Viper 6-Speed. he said we can buy one and put a conversion kit on it and it should work. Thoughts on this?

Here is some of the stats on the car.
Engine
Block work involved the following machining:
boring the cylinders .030 oversized, resurfaced the decks with a .015 grind, line bored the mains to minimum clean up, and honed the lifter valleys out.
Installed all brand new bearings, forged steel crank turned .010 and polished (balanced rotating assembly).TRW hypereutectic .250 dome top pistons for aluminum cylinder heads (.030 oversize), Edelbrock 2.02/1.60 aluminum center bolt straight plug heads. 170cc runners, 64cc chambers, fully ported and polished. Fluidamper harmonic precision balancer, rods are original, reconditioned (by Performance Cylinder Heads and Engines in St.. Louis (Rob Stidham). All machine work was done at Peak Performance with ARP bolts installed. ARP bolts all through out the engine. Edelbrook Aluminum Performer E.O. D-215-46 Cylinder Heads. Pete Jackson G drive, Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap intake, fully ported, gasket matched, and polished. DemonCarb; Mighty Demon 750 double pumper with mechanical secondaries, adjustable venturies, and no choke with a 1” carb spacer. Full MSD Ignition; 6 AL box, rev limiter, blaster 2 coil, and MSD distributor. Edelbrock Victor series water pump, short, aluminum. High torque starter, Edelbrock V series racing mechanical fuel pump, Jazz 16 gal poly fuel cell trunk mounted with vent line. In-line filter mounted near rear end under passenger side wheel well. Summit 2 core aluminum racing radiator connected to a Jazz overflow tank. 168 tooth flywheel Blanchard ground, treated, and balanced 10.4" pressure plate with a Hayes dual friction disc clutch. Comp cams full roller rockers; 1:7 ratio, Comp cams hydraulic lifters. Extra capacity 7 qt. Miloden oil pan with baffles and windage tray. Hooker competition headers were sent to Jet-hot for coating. Summit dress up kit - spun aluminum crank and water pump pulleys, custom made aluminum air cleaner housing and matching tall center bolt valve covers. K&N Air filter.

Comp Cams hydraulic camshaft:
Duration: 284/296
Duration @ .050 lift: 240/246
Gross Valve lift: .507/.510
Lobe Separation: 110 degrees
RPM Range: 2300-6500
Total valve lift with 1:7 roller rockers: .540/.545
Vin Info
Engine Block
Driver side stamp
3970010=350cu engine
F401=Flint plant, April 1

Transmission
Muncie M-21 4 speed close ratio
26 tooth input shaft
2.56 / 1.75 / 1.36 / 1.1 gears
Mounted underneath a Pro Series Hurst shifter with polished handle
Vin Info
Passenger side stamp
P0419 muncie 4 speed, april 19th
3885010=M21, 26 tooth, 10 spline, ratios 2.20, 1.64, 1.28, 1.1

Rear End:
Danny Miller Rear Gears custom built Ford 9” with 3.50:1 Strange gears. Detroit locker, 31 spline M axles. No expense spared, right down to the powder coat. $3000 invested in rear end alone.


Said to make 515 HP at the flywheel, but we haven't got it dyno'd ourselves. 11:1 compression, runs a low 11 quarter mile

Diagnosis:
Put the car on a level street.
Place trans in 4th gear. Engine off.
Push the car.
Car does not roll, bad clutch.
Car does roll, broken hub in clutch disc or as suggested, clutch out of adjustment, not engaging.

If a Muncie breaks internally, you'll know it, lots of noise and if severe, broken case, but there was no mention of any noise at time of failure.

Just performed this test. Car rolls regardless of gear position.

Mark,

Your drive train sounds like it has all the bells and whistles! You must know quite a bit to even be able to list all that stuff. Are you new to manual transmissions?

It sounds like you will have to do a tranny pull to solve this problem. :(
Obviously the rear wheels are not connected to the engine (if it always acts like it's in neutral). The only hope to not have to pull the tranny is if it's the linkage either faulty or not adjusted properly. Do you have mechanical linkage or hydraulic (master and slave cylinders)?
Is there back pressure on the pedal? In other words, does it feel at the pedal like you are engaging and disengaging the clutch? You need to troubleshoot the linkage aspects to see if when you push the pedal, it is moving the throw out bearing against the fingers of the pressure plate (very strongly) to disengage the clutch. There should be a little "freeway space" at the top of the pedal and the "relaxed" position of the linkage. The only linkage problem I can think of that would cause the problem you have is the linkage/ pedal is adjusted so tight that it is holding your pressure plate in the disengaged position. This could happen if your clutch was slipping all along and you didn't know it- which is quite possible. And the slipping wore enough material off your clutch plate so now it doesn't grab at all. I'm assuming you have linkage as that's what most 1st gens have (unless modified).
The other possibilities of your problem aren't as easy. They all require pulling the tranny.
1. Part of input of tranny broken 2. Clutch plate broken 3. Linkage or throw out bearing broken 4. I suppose it's possible that the throw out bearing got "stuck" in the disengaged position (Which should give you no pedal).

Are you sure that the tranny IS going through the gears?

It's 7:30 PM on the West coast, but you can call me if you want tomorrow.
541-680-1404

Good luck,
John

In addition to searching on "Keisler," you might want to look at these two "stickies":
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98387 with respect to T56 6 speed conversions, and http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101632 (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101632) with respect to TKO 5 speed conversions

This is just opinion, but unless you are autocrossing and need a bit closer gears or want bragging rights I just don't see the need for the six speed. Plus the five speed fits better and is a lot less expensive than the six speed. There are two models of the six speed. With one, generally speaking you have to run a rear gear past 4.11:1 or so to even use sixth gear if you've got any kind of cam. On the other model, sixth gear is almost identical to fifth in the TKO-600.

That being said, I could've afforded either and would love to have the six speed "just because" but I bought the TKO-600.

This is just opinion, but unless you are autocrossing and need a bit closer gears or want bragging rights I just don't see the need for the six speed. Plus the five speed fits better and is a lot less expensive than the six speed. There are two models of the six speed. With one, generally speaking you have to run a rear gear past 4.11:1 or so to even use sixth gear if you've got any kind of cam. On the other model, sixth gear is almost identical to fifth in the TKO-600.

That being said, I could've afforded either and would love to have the six speed "just because" but I bought the TKO-600.

Good used T56's show up pretty often; good used TKO's not so much. New to new, the TKO is less expensive; used to new, the T56 can be MUCH less expensive. And there's nothing like roasting the hides in first or second with 4.11's, and then cruising under 2,000 rpm at 70 mph. :D

And there's nothing like roasting the hides in first or second with 4.11's, and then cruising under 2,000 rpm at 70 mph. :D

Man, I bet. Unfortunately for me it would've involved another chunk of cash to change the 3.42's out. Although with a .5 OD I'd have a theoretical 200+ mph car.....:disco:

Man, I bet. Unfortunately for me it would've involved another chunk of cash to change the 3.42's out. Although with a .5 OD I'd have a theoretical 200+ mph car.....:disco:

With 3.42's you made a wise choice not to go to a T56, or if you had you would have accumulated cobwebs on 6th gear.

My current project (months away from the road) is 4.11's with a Viper T56 behind an LS3, so I'm expecting good performance and happy cruising at 70MPH at about 1850 rpm. :thumbsup:

My current project (months away from the road) is 4.11's with a Viper T56 behind an LS3, so I'm expecting good performance and happy cruising at 70MPH at about 1850 rpm. :thumbsup:

Shut up. Just shut up.

Yeah, I kinda built my future setup after hours of languishing over what I wanted. I don't drag race and I short shift a lot, plus I want to be able to hit the interstates an be able to cruise for hours at a time. So, I came up with a combo that I hope will suit me.

I went ahead and got the Moser built with 3.42's and have it installed already behind my current 355/M20 combo. I pulled out a 10 bolt with 3.73's. The TKO-600 is on its way as we speak. The engine is going to be a 408 SBC and here is the dyno chart of what to expect. I think it will all be happy together.


http://www.tandlengines.com/Images/chevy_sb_aluminum_dynos/408_a1_dynochart_sm.jpg

Shut up. Just shut up.

Yeah, I kinda built my future setup after hours of languishing over what I wanted. I don't drag race and I short shift a lot, plus I want to be able to hit the interstates an be able to cruise for hours at a time. So, I came up with a combo that I hope will suit me.

I went ahead and got the Moser built with 3.42's and have it installed already behind my current 355/M20 combo. I pulled out a 10 bolt with 3.73's. The TKO-600 is on its way as we speak. The engine is going to be a 408 SBC and here is the dyno chart of what to expect. I think it will all be happy together.


http://www.tandlengines.com/Images/chevy_sb_aluminum_dynos/408_a1_dynochart_sm.jpg


Keeping quiet here boss.

You should be good with that if it can pull about 1950 without protest. I've used my current '68 (the one in my sig) for a lot of long haul trips. I'm building the project car with that use specifically in mind. Not to say it won't be fast as well, but long haul comfort and economy (relatively speaking) were the goal. Here's the build thread: http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=55002

Just performed this test. Car rolls regardless of gear position.Does clutch pedal have any freeplay?
It should have at least a 1/2 inch of play before resistance is felt.

If there is freeplay, then disc is broken, or trans broken internally. If trans is broke, most likely, case would be broken and oil would be draining out, unless shifter linkage rods are too short and gear selected is not being made.

Of course, as car is being rolled forward, the driveshaft is turning?