The garage claims it will take some 20 man hours to do this job, from the time I drive the car in and until I reverse it out with the new engine installed.

It does sound a bit excessive to me? What do you think?

They also estimate about 8 hours to upgrade the old 327 with new heads, cam, register and headers. This number sound a bit low?

I'm trying to get the general idea since the price of the upgrade varies by 2000 USD from one garage to another.

Are you talking about your 67 Camaro you have posted in some earlier posts here?

IMO, If that is the case, based on those pics of your ride, your garage is about right on track.

Yes, sorry, it's my 67 Camaro I'm talking about. So you think 20 hours work is spot on? I thought this was a fairly easy job, but I'm more experienced with motorcycles than with cars.

20 Man hrs may be a tad bit on the high side.
It looks like you have a factory A/C suitcase that may have to be removed for the swap out. I'm not sure about that.
I have swapped my sbc350 with a th350 trans out on my 69 with no A/C and with Power steering and Power brakes by myself and a bit of help during the cherry pickin in less time than that though.

Oh my God, Alf!....Didn't you spend like 35 grand on that car just last year?.....Now you're replacing the motor already?....You must be loaded, can I have some?

Ulf, buy an engine hoist and motor stand and do it yourself!

engine r&r in an old car is a saturday afternoon project- no more than a few hours to have the motor out, and about the same to put it back in.

If they get 20 hrs. labor to do an engine R&R, I have had the wrong job for the last 24 years!! With the stick in my 69,once I have the car on ramps and jackstands and the hood off, my record for removing the engine/trans is just about an hour-thats me alone.

I've the guys racing in the World of Outlaws sprint cars series change out a small block in less than 20 minutes.

It's amazing to see.

The garage claims it will take some 20 man hours to do this job, from the time I drive the car in and until I reverse it out with the new engine installed.

It does sound a bit excessive to me? What do you think?

They also estimate about 8 hours to upgrade the old 327 with new heads, cam, register and headers. This number sound a bit low?

I'm trying to get the general idea since the price of the upgrade varies by 2000 USD from one garage to another.


What is a "register"? 20 hours is a bit on the high side, but could be worth the extra money if they are going to take their time and do it right. If that is just an estimate, that's fine as long as they will be honest if it takes less time (which it should).

Is the 8-hour "upgrade" included in the 20hrs, or additional to the R&R?

I think $3K sounds fair including complete rebuild ($1500+). Typically, replacement or overhall, pulll them on Friday night (2hrs and a six pack for the pain - on the floor), build on saturday (4-6 hrs), driving down main with no hood on Saturday night for break in), Sunday hoods on and headed for a Sunday drive. American Muscle, just don't get any better.

labor times are subjective...by mitchell labor book shows 10.3 hrs without any additional time shown for p/s or any other accessories..8.0 hrs for swapping heads..this is labor time for in the car,
so yes the shop is correct..
as a shop owner and camaro lover...i would not want my prized camaro having a motor slammed in and out in the fastest time.. i would expect the job done with care and concern for the car..and done correctly...

it is a little excessive on the hours!! i would do all that you asked for 10 hours and still be making money!!

I think it sounds a bit high too...I've pulled the whole clip off the front and engine in under an hour...by self....did have a helper come out to help carry the front clip.

It's not really about the time but money...is it worth the money they are charging to have the job right without hacking things up, scratching paint.

Pay the money and if they so much as scratch a motor mount make them repull the motor, paint the mount and replace.

That's what your paying for.

labor times are subjective...by mitchell labor book shows 10.3 hrs without any additional time shown for p/s or any other accessories..8.0 hrs for swapping heads..this is labor time for in the car,
so yes the shop is correct..
as a shop owner and camaro lover...i would not want my prized camaro having a motor slammed in and out in the fastest time.. i would expect the job done with care and concern for the car..and done correctly...

I agree with 67convert.cam. Then again you could pay Novaderrik to do it but you would likely need a new paint job and possibly some body work after it's completed :D (no offense intended ND) but 2 or 3 hrs each way isn't leaving much time to be carefull or precise.

A reputable shop is going to charge you extra just for the extra care they are going to need to take to keep you happy. That means not scratching things up, reinstalling ALL the nuts and bolts, etc. Face it, yanking and reinstalling the engine on the wifes or brother in-laws car is a peice of cake. Neither one of them care if the valve cover or fender well got scratched:thumbsup:

I have been a journeyman mechanic for 28 years. We usually add about 30-40% labor for anything we do to a show quality car just because of the extra care required. If the customer doesn't like the price no big deal. If he goes with us we make sure he's happy when it's all done.

I agree with 67convert.cam. Then again you could pay Novaderrik to do it but you would likely need a new paint job and possibly some body work after it's completed :D (no offense intended ND) but 2 or 3 hrs each way isn't leaving much time to be carefull or precise.

A reputable shop is going to charge you extra just for the extra care they are going to need to take to keep you happy. That means not scratching things up, reinstalling ALL the nuts and bolts, etc. Face it, yanking and reinstalling the engine on the wifes or brother in-laws car is a peice of cake. Neither one of them care if the valve cover or fender well got scratched:thumbsup:

I have been a journeyman mechanic for 28 years. We usually add about 30-40% labor for anything we do to a show quality car just because of the extra care required. If the customer doesn't like the price no big deal. If he goes with us we make sure he's happy when it's all done.good point!! but in reality it doesnt take more than 15 minutes to bag a car or cover things up...but really, thats a good point!!!!:thumbsup:

I agree with 67convert.cam. Then again you could pay Novaderrik to do it but you would likely need a new paint job and possibly some body work after it's completed :D (no offense intended ND) but 2 or 3 hrs each way isn't leaving much time to be carefull or precise.

A reputable shop is going to charge you extra just for the extra care they are going to need to take to keep you happy. That means not scratching things up, reinstalling ALL the nuts and bolts, etc. Face it, yanking and reinstalling the engine on the wifes or brother in-laws car is a peice of cake. Neither one of them care if the valve cover or fender well got scratched:thumbsup:

I have been a journeyman mechanic for 28 years. We usually add about 30-40% labor for anything we do to a show quality car just because of the extra care required. If the customer doesn't like the price no big deal. If he goes with us we make sure he's happy when it's all done.

back in '04, i swapped a 454 in place of a 350 in a 67 Chevelle. this car was beyond show quality- the car was just way too nice. the firewall and bottom of the floor pans was shinier than the shiny side of any car i've ever owned. oand the kicker was that i never met the guy that owned the car until he dropped it off at my house to swap the motor exactly a week before the Car Craft show so it would have a big block in place for the show.
i had the 350 and T10 out in about 2 hours- this included wrapping the front of the car with the softest blanket i could find at WalMart. i didn't leave a scratch anywhere on the car, thanks to my trusty carb lift plate.
it took about twice that long to get the 454 in place and hooked up- but most of that time was spent routing wires and making things look pretty.
all told, i had about 20 hours of work into the car, including cam break in and tuning. that time was spread out over a week and included running around getting parts and going to the machine shop a few times to drop off the heads and various parts and putting the 454 together from a short block. i also spent a little time putting the proper dents in the $500+ headers to clear the steering shaft without making it look like crap. also included in this time was wiring up the electric Chev gauges so that there were no wires visible in the car at all. i think that took longer than anything else..
here's a pic i took about an hour before firing it up.. i tried to get him to buy an air filter element that wasn't a Fram, but he liked the orange. he also liked that single piece of yellow convoluted tubing for some reason..

http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/2867/2571094250033772906S425x425Q85.jpg

the owner was very impressed, and paid me handsomely for it. the moral of all this is that it doesn't have to take forever to swap engines just because the car is pretty- if it had been a straight small block for small block swap, it would have been done in an afternoon, with maybe a couple of extra hours added on if it was all original and stuff was all rusted up. but then it would be a greasy mess and you probably wouldn't need to worry about scratching up the firewall..

i have been a professional mech /tech for 30yrs...shop owners have to make a living as well as anyone else...i believe in being fair and honest...chilton/mitchell labor guides are just that guides...if someone wants to get it done on the "cheap" there are always the tech's that work on the side..or shadetree mechanics if you will ...used to be one ...good way to earn extra bucks..was able to keep my camaro taken care of when the kids or wife did not need the $$.here is the big difference...the shop...pays for a license pays the technicians then pays taxes to the city state county govt's...and shop insurance..all this so the cars owners can be taken care of responsibly...in the event of accidents theft or just plain screwups by the techs..too many horror stories to go on,been all over ..dealerships and private shops...things happen.... i apologize if this is long just a sensitive issue to me as a shop owner ..last 10 yrs....i love the old cars and my customers know it... i use the labor guides as that... keep an old one or two for that purpuse...that way..it is fair to both parties...

agree. it doesnt necessarily take them 20 hours to do the swap. however, hopefully they will charge you what it takes and rightfully so as others have stated, they to have to pay bills to other people. all said and done, when you can do your own work, go for it, it may or may not save you in the end, but hopefully you learned from it.

engine r&r in an old car is a saturday afternoon project- no more than a few hours to have the motor out, and about the same to put it back in.

I agree......add a few more hours for ****s and giggles.........now you have the job completed in 9!

I think it sounds a bit high too...I've pulled the whole clip off the front and engine in under an hour...by self....did have a helper come out to help carry the front clip.

Wow! I'm barely through the first cup of coffee and thinking about what I need to do in only an hour.

By myself, with a good Chain Hoist and secondary Ratchet Come-Along, Carb Plate and Customized Chain Link, it takes me about an an hour to pull the engine, another 4 hours of misc-cleaning and a beer, 1/2 hour to pull tranny and bolt it to the engine as I prefer to shoe horn the installation with tranny mounted when working by myself rather then fiddling under the car, then about another hour and 1/2 to install the engine and hook up the shifter, exhaust and drive shaft.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3354/3234547471_0d996e80c1.jpg
Love this kind of PIC - When you shoe horn you got to change the attitude of the engine and walk the car forward. NOTE the Fan Belts and Hoses - I am very optimistic - LOL. By the way the Air Breathers on the Valve Covers were insufficient and I put on a Working PCV System.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3234547577_829160e3b9.jpg
Looks like I should have blasted and repainted the Crank Pulley - Oh Well next time.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3366/3234547661_d66bec922c.jpg
Note the Gas Tank Drains - Very Handy.

Just don't install the shifter rods upside down as I did in this particular incident and busted the OEM Chin Spoiler 20 minutes later driving the car over an upgrade to correct it - After this, I gave up on Chin Spoilers - ;o)

I've been meaning to change out the Z28 Drive Shaft for a Larger Dia Unit from a Ventura Waggon, as I have a feeling the Torque of this monster will eventually pretzel it.

ok..don't forget the upgraded heads and cam he wanting installed as well..the shop is doing it cheap enough at 20 hrs...
Obviously like stated before by sleeper327 if you can do the work yourself ..you save big dollars.. if you do not have the place or ability ..then someone has to be paid...
find the reputable shop and move fwd...i hope the work is done right for the guy and he is back running the roads in his camaro soon...

Just a quick reply before I head off to work.
I'm talking about two options here.

1: Change the whole engine with a new one. 20 hours.

or

2: Upgrading the old engine. 8 hours.

In both cases I would drop off the car, have them do the complete job, pay and drive away.

what was the old one(327 stock?) and what would the new one be??

Yes, a stock 327.

New? Probably a 350 of some sort.

just to r&r an engine assembly complete..should be at 10.3 hrs with p/s add another .3 and a/c another .5...
11.1 hrs ..that includes tranferring all parts mounts water pump and anything else external...i understood there was an upgrade top this swap...if i misunderstood i am sorry...was there anything else that shop was doing for the 20hrs??

those labor times are from chilton manual for 1974 back 10 yrs...so very accurate..
it would not matter which engine{327}350...small block is no big deal..

I could remove and reinstall an engine in my driveway, by myself, in a weekend. I am not a professional mechanic, so I would do it slowly and methodically because its my car and I care. So, for me, 20 hours is not all that bad. However, for a professional shop, I think 20 hours is way too long. I professional with lots of experience should be able to pull your engine and replace it in a day. The mods you've described; bolt on new heads and install a cam, shouldn't take a professional more than 4 hours once the motor is out. I'd call some more shops and get more quotes. ...... BTW, you do NOT need to remove the motor to install heads, cam, and register (?!).

One thing you have to consider is the condition of the Nut's and Bolts and how clean the car is. Are the Fasteners Seized or are they well lubed with Never Seize or whatever and if the car is dirty you spend more time cleaning the mess then working on the car. This definitively has to be taken into consideration when giving a quote on an engine transplant. Simple things like Header Bolts or Muffler Clamps can delay the job and the car has to be set aside until the parts arrive.

all of these things mentioned in this thread need to be considered in the price..folks also need to know..when a repair facility gets an older/classic car in the shop on the lift...profit drops...because once taken apart and the parts do not fit correctly or cannot locate as easily..then that stall/or lift is now unproductive..so some shops figure all those things in...