Just saw where an OSU player has been suspended indefinatly for lying to the NCAA. It appears this kid went to Dion Sander's home. When the NCAA asked him if he went to Sander's home, the kid said "No". It was a lie and that's why he was suspended. According to the NCAA, him going to Sander's home is not a violation. The kid thought it was a viloation and that's why he lied.
I think that's a little harsh. The NCAA is not the FBI. Lives were not at stake here. They easily could have made him squirm a bit and see the errors of his ways for lying. This is a kid that was projected to go very high in the NFL draft. This move by the NCAA may have cost him million of dollars. I just dont see the punishment fitting the crime. Also, two weeks ago the president of the NCAA passed away. I wonder if this is just a power-play by the new president, showing everyone who's the boss :sad:

They are communists!!

So you're saying sometimes it's o.k. to lie and sometimes it's not? That's one of the things wrong with the world today. Bold faced lying to get your *** out of trouble irritates the crap out of me. Tell the truth. Take your lumps and move on. Better yet, don't do crap that you'd have to lie about. His mom and pop should have schooled him better.

Mark

So you're saying sometimes it's o.k. to lie and sometimes it's not? That's one of the things wrong with the world today. Bold faced lying to get your *** out of trouble irritates the crap out of me. Tell the truth. Take your lumps and move on. Better yet, don't do crap that you'd have to lie about. His mom and pop should have schooled him better.

Mark

I'm not saying it's o.k. to lie. He admitted his mistake. I'm guessing he's not the first 20 year old to make a bad decision. But, a mistake made by most 20 year olds don't cost them millions of dollars. The NCAA is there to help the student/athlete, not do irreversable damage to their future. Again, my point is: the punishment doesn't fit the crime. As far as "Don't do crap you have to lie about", he wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't breaking any rules. He thought it may have been a violation so he panicked and lied. No crime was committed, no one was hurt, he did nothing to shed bad light on himself, the university, or college football. This is outragous.

If this punishment is so outrageous, then what would be a fitting punishment? Not trying to call you out, Mark, but you seem to agree that lying is wrong yet are throwing up your arms over the punishment.

Didn't do anything to shed a bad light on himself, the university, or college football? He thought what he was doing was wrong, yet did it anyway, so for all he knew, he was willingly breaking the rules. Then lied about it.

If this punishment is so outrageous, then what would be a fitting punishment? Not trying to call you out, Mark, but you seem to agree that lying is wrong yet are throwing up your arms over the punishment.

Didn't do anything to shed a bad light on himself, the university, or college football? He thought what he was doing was wrong, yet did it anyway, so for all he knew, he was willingly breaking the rules. Then lied about it.

I don't feel like I'm being called out, I'm the one that started this thread...
There's no reason to think that HE thought what he was doing was wrong. It may not even have crossed his mind till he got a visit or call from the NCAA. If he beat up his girlfriend, sold drugs, or pulled a gun on someone THEN lied about it, I'd agree with the punishment based on the initial act. But, he's a 20 year old that panicked, then lied. I think the punishment should have been him coming clean and apologizing to the NCAA for lying. Maybe have him sit out a game. Let's put it this way: should this really be costing this kid possibly millions of dollars? Again, it's just too much. (And I don't even like Ok. State, lol. I root against this kid every week!)

While I have no love for the NCAA, and think it (along with colleges and college coaches) exploits young athletes, I'm personally tired of the "he apologized, so it's okay" mentality. He lied to the NCAA while it was conducting an investigation of his conduct. If he's only suspended for a game or two, that simply sends the message that you can lie and get away with it.

Either folks take and accept REAL responsibility for their acts or they don't. The apology "out" just doesn't cut it for me.

If he lied about going to Mr. Sanders house because he "thought" is was an NCAA violation, the possibility exists that he would most definitely lie about activities that the NCAA prohibits......like taking money from a sports agent or receiving a car from a sports agent. Where would it stop if the NCAA had not acted in this case. Jmo.

David F.

If he lied about going to Mr. Sanders house because he "thought" is was an NCAA violation, the possibility exists that he would most definitely lie about activities that the NCAA prohibits......like taking money from a sports agent or receiving a car from a sports agent. Where would it stop if the NCAA had not acted in this case. Jmo.

David F.

so he should be punished because the "Possibility exists that he would MOST DEFINITELY lie about" other things? So, good for the NCAA for stopping this guy from EVENTUALLY doing something that's actually against the rules? I'm sure glad the NCAA is there to save these kids from themselves!:thumbsup:

I'm personally tired of the "he apologized, so it's okay" mentality. He lied to the NCAA while it was conducting an investigation of his conduct. If he's only suspended for a game or two, that simply sends the message that you can lie and get away with it.

Either folks take and accept REAL responsibility for their acts or they don't. The apology "out" just doesn't cut it for me.

Pretty tired of the 'I apologized' mentality myself. Seems these days you can do whatever you want and then apologize and blame it on something else. How many Kanyes do we tolerate before we put an end to that crap.

If he lied about going to Mr. Sanders house because he "thought" is was an NCAA violation, the possibility exists that he would most definitely lie about activities that the NCAA prohibits......like taking money from a sports agent or receiving a car from a sports agent. Where would it stop if the NCAA had not acted in this case. Jmo.

David F.

My thoughts exactly. If he lied about that, he would lie about anything to save his behind.

Mark, you seem to be more concerned about his loss of 'millions of dollars' rather than a ruined career of a young upcoming athlete. I'm sure the rules were spelled out to him. Either you choose to follow them, or you don't.

Mark

Pretty tired of the 'I apologized' mentality myself. Seems these days you can do whatever you want and then apologize and blame it on something else. How many Kanyes do we tolerate before we put an end to that crap.



My thoughts exactly. If he lied about that, he would lie about anything to save his behind.

Mark, you seem to be more concerned about his loss of 'millions of dollars' rather than a ruined career of a young upcoming athlete. I'm sure the rules were spelled out to him. Either you choose to follow them, or you don't.

Mark

He would lie about anything? Maybe you're just projecting your opinions about athletes into the situation. You bet I'm concerned about his loss of millions of dollars. An athlete's career is sometimes cut short. It's better financially to be a top 5 pick than top 20 pick. I say this to show the impact this decision will have on him. What if we were talking about a kid that was a computer science major? What if he had IBM, NASA, Hewett-Packard lined up at his door. Then he's told he can't write any more papers, do any more projects.. can't go to that big computer seminar where thousands of people were there to see him speak? Only because he screwed up and lied about going to Bill Gates house for a visit? does that seem fair?

There's no reason to think that HE thought what he was doing was wrong.

Sure there is. That's why he lied, he thought it was wrong. If he didn't think what he did was wrong why would he try to hide it?

My first post was edited because I mentioned an "honor code" then took it out because I thought it didn't apply to the conversation, but I'm going to bring it up anyway. Many schools have an honor code, I attended one where it was taken VERY seriously. It didn't matter if you spent one week at the school, or were one week from graduating... guilty of an honor violation (lying, cheating, stealing, or tolerating those who do) usually resulted in expulsion. Period. I saw juniors and seniors get kicked out of school after several years hard work, just because of a "little white lie." I mention all this because what's to stop someone from lying if they know it'll only result in a slap on the wrist or a stern talking-to? "It's only a little lie, it's ok. not like anything bad will happen if I'm caught."

Is he suspended from participating in sports or suspended from school altogether? Let's not forget what comes first in "student/athlete".

Aaron: He's in trouble with the NCAA, not the school. He's been suspended "indefinatly". Many think he's played his last down. I hope they let him think about it for a couple weeks then let him play.

Ok then, understood. You mentioned something about a comp. sci. major not being able to write papers and do projects, I read that to be he's not in school anymore.

My whole tirade about honor codes leads me to this question..... How do you instill honor if dishonor goes unpunished???

He would lie about anything? Maybe you're just projecting your opinions about athletes into the situation. You bet I'm concerned about his loss of millions of dollars. An athlete's career is sometimes cut short. It's better financially to be a top 5 pick than top 20 pick. I say this to show the impact this decision will have on him. What if we were talking about a kid that was a computer science major? What if he had IBM, NASA, Hewett-Packard lined up at his door. Then he's told he can't write any more papers, do any more projects.. can't go to that big computer seminar where thousands of people were there to see him speak? Only because he screwed up and lied about going to Bill Gates house for a visit? does that seem fair?

If he lied about this, then yes he would lie about other things as well. Not a hard concept to follow. And as far as the computer science major goes, if those were the rules and he broke them then yes it seems fair.

Things like honesty and integrity have fallen by the wayside. People these days seem to think it's o.k. to lie as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or isn't a 'big' lie, or because 'everyone does it'. Where does it end? It's a sad sign of the times when you expect to be lied to 'because everyone does it'. Sorry man, it's just one of my pet peaves.

Mark

What I don't understand is why Deion Sanders can't seem to leave exceptional college athletes alone. A few years ago he got a Florida State player in trouble with the NCAA for taking him out fishing. If I remember correctly, Sanders said that he was "mentoring" the kid. But jeesh...if he already got (at least) one kid called on the carpet why in the he77 doesn't he leave college players alone? That idiot (Sanders) should know better.

While I have no love for the NCAA, and think it (along with colleges and college coaches) exploits young athletes, I'm personally tired of the "he apologized, so it's okay" mentality. He lied to the NCAA while it was conducting an investigation of his conduct. If he's only suspended for a game or two, that simply sends the message that you can lie and get away with it.

Either folks take and accept REAL responsibility for their acts or they don't. The apology "out" just doesn't cut it for me.

Yeah, I'm no big fan of the NCAA either. It's ridiculous how they can use these kids in t.v. commercials and video games (SEGA). But, they won't even allow an alumnus to buy a player a cheeseburger. Several years back when OU got on prohbation, some of the rules violations included a group of former players pitching in to buy Christmas toys for an athlete's kids because their house had burned down a few day before Christmas; and Switzer got in trouble because he paid for a girl on the basketball team to fly home for Thanksgiving. He saw her crying and asked what the problem was, she told him and he said, I'll fly you home. I can see where the NCAA wouldn't want that kind of terrible behavior.

What I don't understand is why Deion Sanders can't seem to leave exceptional college athletes alone. A few years ago he got a Florida State player in trouble with the NCAA for taking him out fishing. If I remember correctly, Sanders said that he was "mentoring" the kid. But jeesh...if he already got (at least) one kid called on the carpet why in the he77 doesn't he leave college players alone? That idiot (Sanders) should know better.

We are talking about Deion Sanders here. He never was known to be too bright. Don't let the fact that these guys know "where" they went (allegedly) to college cause you to believe they learned anything other than how to develop their already inflated sense of entitlement.

We are talking about Deion Sanders here. He never was known to be too bright. Don't let the fact that these guys know "where" they went (allegedly) to college cause you to believe they learned anything other than how to develop their already inflated sense of entitlement.

But that's the issue.

The athlete gets sympathy for the "harsh" punishment of being suspended for lying to the NCAA because it'll adversely affect his team's chances of winning. For many elite athetes, it's been that way throughout their lives - there's a set of rules for everyone else, and a set for them; becuase if they don't play, some team's chances of winning are reduced, some coach's record is adversely impacted and (at the college level) some AD's revenues are lower than they might have been. The athletes develop that sense of entitlement because adults (who should know better) have been making excuses for them and excusing their behavior their entire lives so they'll be available to perform in the game.

But that's the issue.

The athlete gets sympathy for the "harsh" punishment of being suspended for lying to the NCAA because it'll adversely affect his team's chances of winning. For many elite athetes, it's been that way throughout their lives - there's a set of rules for everyone else, and a set for them; becuase if they don't play, some team's chances of winning are reduced, some coach's record is adversely impacted and (at the college level) some AD's revenues are lower than they might have been. The athletes develop that sense of entitlement because adults (who should know better) have been making excuses for them and excusing their behavior their entire lives so they'll be available to perform in the game.

Athletes have always gotten a pass in life, as do actors, politicians and others in "perceived" positions of power. We see it all the time, and while I am not excusing it or condoning it, it has always been this way, and as long as people are willing to watch these guys make millions, it will continue to be that way.

My only "real" issue is the manner in which the governing bodies pick and choose "who" the rules get applied to, followed by the reasons they give for doing it. But, if you look at our legal system, we see where the NCAA gets the model for applying the rules.

FWIW, I am a little taken aback by some of the comments in this thread (not yours) about the fact that this kid lied. We are a nation of liars, and I'm not going to throw a stone at this kid for lying, because everyone has at some point in their life. Anyone who says they haven't, well, is lying. I'm not excusing it, but we have a bunch of Mother Theresas in here acting like they are somehow above it all.

FWIW, I am a little taken aback by some of the comments in this thread (not yours) about the fact that this kid lied. We are a nation of liars, and I'm not going to throw a stone at this kid for lying, because everyone has at some point in their life. Anyone who says they haven't, well, is lying. I'm not excusing it, but we have a bunch of Mother Theresas in here acting like they are somehow above it all.

By "not throwing stones" and condoning his behavior because we are "a nation of liars" you ARE excusing it. That was my point. You let it slide because everyone does it. Where does it end? No one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. You're basically saying the same thing I did. We expect to be lied to because everyone does it. Why does everyone do it? Because there are no consequences.

While I'm no Mother Theresa as you put it, I do believe in honesty, integrity and character. Personality traits that don't seem to mean much anymore because they don't get you ahead in todays world. Lying and cheating does. I taught my kids to be honest and true to their word because that's what's important to me. Maybe if more parents did the same we wouldn't have a nation of liars.

Mark

Athletes have always gotten a pass in life, as do actors, politicians and others in "perceived" positions of power. We see it all the time, and while I am not excusing it or condoning it, it has always been this way, and as long as people are willing to watch these guys make millions, it will continue to be that way.

My only "real" issue is the manner in which the governing bodies pick and choose "who" the rules get applied to, followed by the reasons they give for doing it. But, if you look at our legal system, we see where the NCAA gets the model for applying the rules.

FWIW, I am a little taken aback by some of the comments in this thread (not yours) about the fact that this kid lied. We are a nation of liars, and I'm not going to throw a stone at this kid for lying, because everyone has at some point in their life. Anyone who says they haven't, well, is lying. I'm not excusing it, but we have a bunch of Mother Theresas in here acting like they are somehow above it all.

Actually, many actors and athletes are way underpaid. It's easy to say Tom Cruise is overpaid. Yeah, he makes $15,000,000 per movie. But he'll make your studio $300,000,000; It becomes a "Tom Cruise" or "Brad Pitt" or "Julia Roberts" movie. A movie starring Denzel Washington will make more money than one starring Joe Schmo. Same with athletes. Manny Ramariz makes an insane amount of money, sure. But, he fills the stands and gets you in the playoffs (gotta love that t.v. revenue, right). Now, that being said, I hate it when a guy has a good season, bats .355, and signs a fat multi-year contract. the next season he's hitting .206 and batting 7th for the Durham Bulls. Do I wish teachers and firefighters made more money? of course. But that's another issue all together.

Athletes have always gotten a pass in life, as do actors, politicians and others in "perceived" positions of power.

LOL, the elite kid in the chess club, or the computer club, or the service club in high school probably doesn't get nearly as many free passes as the elite football or basketball player.

I'm talking about a lifetime of free passes because some adult wants the athlete in the game, not an adult who's gotten spoiled and arrogant as a result of having money and/or power.

FWIW, I am a little taken aback by some of the comments in this thread (not yours) about the fact that this kid lied. We are a nation of liars, and I'm not going to throw a stone at this kid for lying, because everyone has at some point in their life. Anyone who says they haven't, well, is lying. I'm not excusing it, but we have a bunch of Mother Theresas in here acting like they are somehow above it all.

Craig, I never said I have never lied. My posts were meant to bring up the idea of accountability for one's actions when it comes to lying. Isn't that what this discussion has been about? Have I ever lied in my life. Sure. But I lived a short time of my life being held strictly accountable for such actions. What started as not lying out of fear for the consequences has developed into a sense of pride and honor because I hold myself to a higher standard than many in our "nation of liars." Read that as a "holier than thou" mentality if you want, it most certainly is not. Those who hold themselves and others accountable for their actions and choose to not let stuff like this slide are NOT the ones that are above it all. You've got that backwards, those who are NOT held accountable are the ones "above it all."

Actually, many actors and athletes are way underpaid. It's easy to say Tom Cruise is overpaid. Yeah, he makes $15,000,000 per movie. But he'll make your studio $300,000,000; It becomes a "Tom Cruise" or "Brad Pitt" or "Julia Roberts" movie. A movie starring Denzel Washington will make more money than one starring Joe Schmo. Same with athletes. Manny Ramariz makes an insane amount of money, sure. But, he fills the stands and gets you in the playoffs (gotta love that t.v. revenue, right). Now, that being said, I hate it when a guy has a good season, bats .355, and signs a fat multi-year contract. the next season he's hitting .206 and batting 7th for the Durham Bulls. Do I wish teachers and firefighters made more money? of course. But that's another issue all together.

I'm not discounting they are "worth" the money to those who "own" them, because they are. I am merely talking about the way they "get over" in circumstances (legal issues, for example) where the rest of us do not. It just works out that way. If I could throw a football the way Brett Favre does, and get paid that much money for doing it, I can see myself losing perspective of the "real world." Not saying he has. Just using him as an example of a guy who makes a lot of money, and probably doesn't understand my own personal day to day issues with making ends meet, and functioning in a society whereby no one is kissing my *** every time I turn around.

By "not throwing stones" and condoning his behavior because we are "a nation of liars" you ARE excusing it. That was my point. You let it slide because everyone does it. Where does it end? No one takes responsibility for their actions anymore. You're basically saying the same thing I did. We expect to be lied to because everyone does it. Why does everyone do it? Because there are no consequences.

While I'm no Mother Theresa as you put it, I do believe in honesty, integrity and character. Personality traits that don't seem to mean much anymore because they don't get you ahead in todays world. Lying and cheating does. I taught my kids to be honest and true to their word because that's what's important to me. Maybe if more parents did the same we wouldn't have a nation of liars.

Mark


I never said I condone it. I'm just trying to be realistic. I don't like liars, and try not to knowingly associate with them. But, I do live in the real world, and in that world, lying happens. The consequences associated with lying CANNOT be dealt with at the corporate level, or in this case, the NCAA. Lying is handled by way of your character being wrecked, which is a societal responsibility.


Here is a dilemma I occasionally present (to upper level students) when I give lessons in honesty (I am a school counselor). If a man comes to your house and asks if your brother is home with the intent on killing your brother, and your brother is home, do you lie and say he is not? Do you tell the truth? Then we discuss it.

What would you tell your kids to do? How do you explain this to them (whichever way you decide to go with it).

What started as not lying out of fear for the consequences has developed into a sense of pride and honor because I hold myself to a higher standard than many in our "nation of liars." Read that as a "holier than thou" mentality if you want, it most certainly is not. Those who hold themselves and others accountable for their actions and choose to not let stuff like this slide are NOT the ones that are above it all. You've got that backwards, those who are NOT held accountable are the ones "above it all."

Well said. :thumbsup: My thoughts exactly.

As a kid I used to get my *** whooped more for lying than what I would have for the actual 'crime'. I learned quick it wasn't worth the trouble. Or maybe I was just a bad liar. ;)

Mark

Here is a dilemma I occasionally present (to upper level students) when I give lessons in honesty (I am a school counselor). If a man comes to your house and asks if your brother is home with the intent on killing your brother, and your brother is home, do you lie and say he is not? Do you tell the truth? Then we discuss it.

What would you tell your kids to do? How do you explain this to them (whichever way you decide to go with it).


If I know he's there to kill my brother, why wouldn't I just kick his ***?

Mark

If I know he's there to kill my brother, why wouldn't I just kick his ***?

Mark


Because in my scenario, the killer is a full grown man, and the person faced with telling the truth or the lie is a kid (because I am talking to kids at the time:)), not capable of kicking the man's ***. :) The only option (for the sake of the discussion) is what you "say" to the killer, knowing of course one thing may get your brother killed, and the other may spare his life. Go.

This isn't the off topic forum so lets not just argue because you like to! Two of you are taking this completely off topic for your own entertainment! Please don't take it further off topic by arguing with me on this, just get back on topic and keep moving! Thanks...

Because in my scenario, the killer is a full grown man, and the person faced with telling the truth or the lie is a kid (because I am talking to kids at the time:)), not capable of kicking the man's ***. :) The only option (for the sake of the discussion) is what you "say" to the killer, knowing of course one thing may get your brother killed, and the other may spare his life. Go.

"May" get your brother killed? "May" spare his life? That confuses the issue. If it was a definite 'he gets killed' if you tell the truth, then the answer is obviously to lie and save your brother. The word 'may' leaves all sorts of things open.

In your scenario I would rather tell the truth and come up with a way to save my brother and catch the criminal at the same time instead of lying and having my brother killed anyway. That seems like a crappy option... Ask an ambiguous question, get an ambiguous answer. ;)

This topic wasn't about martyrs being killed by criminals. That's getting pretty deep.

Mark

This isn't the off topic forum so lets not just argue because you like to! Two of you are taking this completely off topic for your own entertainment! Please don't take it further off topic by arguing with me on this, just get back on topic and keep moving! Thanks...

Sorry Dennis. Didn't see your post before I posted that last one. I also noticed it was getting a bit off topic...

Mark

Back to the football player, his scenario actually was simple. The governing body asked him a question and he lied to keep his butt out of trouble. It isn't about 'everyone has lied at some point in their life'.

Mom-"Did you put that broccoli in your boots?" Kid-"Noooo..." ;)

Mark

Craig, of course I'd lie to a killer that was looking for a family member of mine. That's not an apples to apples comparison though. Life & death vs. lying to stay out of trouble.

We could run around in circles all day long coming up with different situations where we think it's okay to lie because of the situation. Look at it this way, if someone were to lie in a certain situation, would it be dishonorable to do so? Lying to a murderer so your family doesn't get killed? That doesn't show dishonor. Undercover cop lying about being a drug addict so they can catch a drug dealer? That doesn't show dishonor. All "lying" by definition but not dishonorable, IMO. But lying to stay out of trouble because you thought you were breaking rules, or cheating on a test to get a better grade........

We could come up with a list of a hundred "lies" and I bet we'd agree 99% of the time on which ones were "right" and which ones were "wrong." I think our disagreement comes from whether or not lies should be punished, and if so, how severely.....

I'll bet that most of the guys here lie on a fairly frequent basis...

wife: "How much did that part cost?"
us: "It was on sale...cheap"

wife: "When are you going to have that car finished/running?"
us: "Real soon...at least before the start of cruising season."

and of course the deadly one

wife: "Do these pants make my butt look big?"
us: "Ummm...no dear, not at all." or "I just remembered something I need to do out in the garage..."

Brian, You said a lot in those few statments, Yes we all lie, some are white lies, some arn't. The NCAA probaly (sp) told him he was under oath. It was not at a street corner.
It was in an office, he was told the truth IS important.

On simple face value,the punishment does seem a bit excessive in my book.
Why may I ask isn't Deion Sanders being punished for helping to ruin this kids career?

At worst the kids college ball career is sidelined, it won't stop him from playing pro ball...

The punishment seems to be harsher on the rest of his team and the school with all the talk about this kid being their only hope to go further...

I'll bet that most of the guys here lie on a fairly frequent basis...

wife: "How much did that part cost?"
us: "It was on sale...cheap"

wife: "When are you going to have that car finished/running?"
us: "Real soon...at least before the start of cruising season."

and of course the deadly one

wife: "Do these pants make my butt look big?"
us: "Ummm...no dear, not at all." or "I just remembered something I need to do out in the garage..."


There is no right answer to that last one!! l:)l:)

DON'T try no hunny your butt makes the pants look big.