Is this a 302 or just a 327?

Hello everyone.

This is my first post (other than my intro), so bear with me if this has been discussed elsewhere.

I am putting together a 1968 Camaro and I purchased a complete, freshly rebuilt small block from a friend of a friend, who in turn recieved it in trade, so nobody really knows anything about the engine. It was touted as a 327, but I wanted to see what you all thought. I did a search from the block and head numbers-
Block: 3892657. Heads: 3795896

I ran the numbers and came back with this:
Block
1967
302 290/290 (Z-28, small journal)
327 210/350 (car and truck)
350 295/295 (Camaro)

Heads
1963-67 283, 327 1.72/1.5

Seems pretty straight forward- probably a 327, but... When I actually got the engine I was looking it over and found an extra hole at the rear of the block on top next to the distributor. My buddy did a little research on line and found this:

It's a "Road Draft Tube". Early small journal small blocks had both oil fill and breather capabilities cast into the block. In some cases this hooked up to a tube that just dumped crank case gasses overboard. If you have pcv hooked up through valve cover and carb you can just plug the tube hole. Acording to Lingenfelter (sp) there is no problem w/ these blocks. Just getting harder and harder to find. The 67 302 was this configuration. In 68 they changed the small block to a larger journal, both mains and rods and did away w/ the "Road Tube".

Now my heartbeat is up a little, because how sweet would it be to have a genie 302?

I havent pulled heads or the pan or anything, just purely going by the numbers on the block. Sorry, I dont have a picture of the hole, but I could get it. Also, instead of having a spin on oil filter it uses the older style "can" with the replaceable filter. There is also a brass tag riveted onto the block- factory rebuild at some time? I could get those numbers if needed.

Anyhoo, what do you guys think- 302 or 327?

Thanks a bunch- this is a fantastic site- you have answered all my questions by looking through old threads.

Dean in PHX.

Sounds like a 327/210 by the description. It really matters what is inside. If you can post a photo of the butt end of the crank, where the flywheel bolts up, you can tell 327 or not.

Not likely to be 302. All small blocks from that era had breather hole in rear of block. Can you see the crankshaft flange that the flywheel bolts to? If you can, you can identify the crankshaft by the flange shape without disassembling the motor.

Jimmy V.

The engine is on a stand. I will take a pic when I get home and post it up. Thanks for the info.
Dean

The 327/210hp in my Nov. 66 built RS has the tube as well.

Photos- hopefully these load. The motor is on a stand so hopefully you can see what you need.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/exracer29/camaro%20pictures/crank1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/exracer29/camaro%20pictures/crank2.jpg

Thanks again to everyone for your help.
Dean

327, my friend.

Anything on the stamp pad?

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/crankshafts/crankABC.jpg

Yup, 327

ok- well, it was fun to entertain the idea. Its been 20 odd years since my last Chevy, so I am a bit rusty on all things GMl. The 327 will will do the job just fine.
Thanks again for all your help.
Dean

It's not "just a 327" they are good little motors that will run stripes around bigger ci motors and are reliable as heck. I'd rather have one that a 350 that just about everyone on this earth has had at some point.
The heads on that motor are no good, and there is plenty of room to grow if you want to do some upgrades in the future.

And they sound sooo sweet at 6 grand!:D

... My buddy did a little research on line and found this:

It's a "Road Draft Tube". Early small journal small blocks had both oil fill and breather capabilities cast into the block. In some cases this hooked up to a tube that just dumped crank case gasses overboard. If you have pcv hooked up through valve cover and carb you can just plug the tube hole. Acording to Lingenfelter (sp) there is no problem w/ these blocks. Just getting harder and harder to find. The 67 302 was this configuration. In 68 they changed the small block to a larger journal, both mains and rods and did away w/ the "Road Tube". ...

Dean in PHX.

Uhmmm - nope :noway:
I've read that publication and a few others - they have the use of this rear vent provision slightly misunderstood, it was only used for a "Road Draft" tube mounting from 1955 thru 1961.

The "Road Draft" systems were last used in 1962 - not 1967 ;)
The 1968 and later blocks did do away with the breather provision in the rear of the block - but not because they were eliminating the 'Draft' tube system.
This rear vent provision was used in both a Closed and a Semi-Closed Crankcase Ventilation system from 1962 thru 1967. Both systems employed a PVC, the only difference was how the PVC was mounted and were the system air intake was located.
It was illegal in all states to have an open draft tube system after the 1961 model year. All engines were reguired to have a PVC system to vent crankcase fumes to the intake for burning-off during operation, starting with 1962 model year vehicles.

Just wanted to clarify in case someone 'searched' this for information at a later date :thumbsup:

It's not "just a 327" they are good little motors that will run stripes around bigger ci motors
There great engines and can be built to haul tail, but run sripes around bigger Ci motors... :sad:

Not to be picky but it is PCV positive crankcase ventilation, not PVC Polyvinylchloride.

There great engines and can be built to haul tail, but run sripes around bigger Ci motors... :sad:

Not that it was available in a Camaro but several other GM models carried a 327/350hp L79 that were big block killers!

Not to be picky but it is PCV positive crankcase ventilation, not PVC Polyvinylchloride.

You are quite correct :thumbsup:
I type faster than I can think many times :o
And you should never use PVC to pipe to a PCV :D

There great engines and can be built to haul tail, but run sripes around bigger Ci motors... :sad:
You are right, because an 11:1 327/375 vette motor wouldn't outrun a 400sbc assuming they are both stock... or the lower hp boat anchors they put in the camaro's.

You are right, because an 11:1 327/375 vette motor wouldn't outrun a 400sbc assuming they are both stock... or the lower hp boat anchors they put in the camaro's.
Not to hyjack the thread but stock or modified the larger cube motor will have the advantage. An approx built big block or even A larger cube small block will out power the 327/375hp vette motor. I have been fortunate enough to have driven just about every vette or muscle car built from Carrol shelbys personal 68 KR500 conv to the #38 ZL1 and yes even a 375hp vette.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the information. Very knowledgeable group of people here.

Dean.

put a full solid lifter valvetrain with it and you wont care how fast it is!! It will sound bad enough no one would mess with you. Especially if you revved it to 6K at the lite next to him...lol.

327, IMHO, is still the better engine due to the fact that the stroke and the bore are close to the same, meaning the motor is "A Square motor" After building all these roundy-roundy *engines*, They all wanted the stroke to be as close to the bore as possible.

The drag guys, mostly from my knowledge anyway, like the bore big,depending on app anyway, to get torq needed to get the car moving off the line faster. Others thiks that launching at 4500 would be better to get the peak HP closr or right above peak torq.

*Engines are engines---motors are electric and come in the heater/AC core..lol. This is coming from an electrician tho, LMAO!*

The car I am building will be built for the twisties and just general cruising, with some retro Trans Am styling cues thrown in. It wont be a clone- I still need all the seats so I can take the family with me and I dont want to be crawling through a roll cage.
As long as the 327 is reliable and makes enough power to get out of its own way, thats good enough for me. After all, I can only go the speed limit...:)
It would have been pretty neat though to have a Trans Am inspired car with a 302 under the hood...

As long as the 327 is reliable and makes enough power to get out of its own way, thats good enough for me. After all, I can only go the speed limit...:)...It is very reliable.

It will start the 'urge' to have more....it's the 'man' gene in us.

You can go as fast as you want, the idea is to not get caught by Mr. Bear ..............I hate those green stamps......

Not to hyjack the thread but stock or modified the larger cube motor will have the advantage. An approx built big block or even A larger cube small block will out power the 327/375hp vette motor. I have been fortunate enough to have driven just about every vette or muscle car built from Carrol shelbys personal 68 KR500 conv to the #38 ZL1 and yes even a 375hp vette. Not to dissagree with someone so much of an expert but this old farmboy has built one or 2 circle track racecar motors in the last 30+ years and built a few 327s that would beat the pants off the guys running 350s simply because you can get the RPMs up quicker coming out of the turns with the shorter stroke. On a long straight run, I agree with your comments that bigger is usually better. The best bang for the buck that I personally have built a few of was specifically built for a class of circle track racing that had a 355 cubic inch limit. Naturally everyone was running .030 over 350s. Mine were a .030 over 400 block with a forged large journal 327 crank using bearing spacers & custom pistons. Came out to a 353 and blew the 355s off like they were chained to a stump.. Big bore & short stroke = more RPMs... But what do I know. I've only seen Carrol Shelby on TV :p

You are right, because an 11:1 327/375 vette motor wouldn't outrun a 400sbc assuming they are both stock... or the lower hp boat anchors they put in the camaro's.


You seem to forget the 400Sb only came with a 2 barrel carb and came in
station wagons and "luxary" cars until the last year or two, I will take my
327/331 against a 400/406, any day NO N2O, on any car

You seem to forget the 400Sb only came with a 2 barrel carb and came in
station wagons and "luxary" cars ...

:noway: The 400's were equiped with a Rochester 4-barrel after 1974 - in passenger models :thumbsup:
:o You also seem to be forgetting the 400 was also used in the truck lines and carried over clear into the early 1980's - all with Rochester 4-barrels :thumbsup:

Not to dissagree with someone so much of an expert but this old farmboy has built one or 2 circle track racecar motors in the last 30+ years and built a few 327s that would beat the pants off the guys running 350s simply because you can get the RPMs up quicker coming out of the turns with the shorter stroke. On a long straight run, I agree with your comments that bigger is usually better. The best bang for the buck that I personally have built a few of was specifically built for a class of circle track racing that had a 355 cubic inch limit. Naturally everyone was running .030 over 350s. Mine were a .030 over 400 block with a forged large journal 327 crank using bearing spacers & custom pistons. Came out to a 353 and blew the 355s off like they were chained to a stump.. Big bore & short stroke = more RPMs... But what do I know. I've only seen Carrol Shelby on TV :p
Im far from an expert but if you say so.:p

If everyone drove there 69 Camaros around a circle track at 4500+ Rpm a combo like that might be benificial. Our cars arent the lightest especially when there track prepped. If this was a Shelby Cobra forum and we drove 2200# cars a high winding top end motor might be the hot ticket.

I had a 427 small block that made 553/513 Rwhp/tq NA on a dyno jet chassis dyno. Figure the power train loss into the equation and thats well past 600Hp at the crank. I drove the hell out of that car also and never had one issue with reliability. Launching that car at 5k with a six speed felt like being rear ended by a school bus. Show me a naturally asperated 327 that makes that kind of power while still producing that kind of torque.

The 327 is a great motor but when your running down the 1/4 mile or from stop light to stop light torque is a big factor.. Unless your running on crappy tires or Biased ply originals where a lot of torque wont do you any good and your going to get killed reguardless.

Street or drag racing is completely different than circle/dirt track racing. Guess thats why you see very few 327 powered cars at the drag strip? And the de stroked or small cube motors usually have a power adder of some kind to keep up with the big boys.

With low gears, huge converters ect you can overcome some of the loss of low end but thats not allways practicle in a street car. Like I said earlier, it all depends on what you want to do with your car. You probably didnt read that though?

You seem to forget the 400Sb only came with a 2 barrel carb and came in
station wagons and "luxary" cars until the last year or two, I will take my
327/331 against a 400/406, any day NO N2O, on any car
That post was sarcasm, I don't believe a high horse 327 would lose out to a lower rated hp big block, regardless of how many vehicles the person has drove or who they knew.
I apologize for hijacking, I'm tempted to split this thread into a 327 Vs. Larger ci motors, but we all have opinions, and nothing would really become of a thread about smaller ci. vs. larger ci., it's been done before and gets lengthy with no factual outcome.

327 and smaller motors have their place, just as larger ones do, bang for buck, can't go wrong with a 406" or larger small block, I really like the idea of a 3.25" crank in a 4.125" block, the next motor I would build besides an lsx would be a 3.48" crank in a 4.155" block, 377 destroker, great motor, best of both worlds.

As for reliability, from my experience they can't be beat, I'm thoroughly convinced a properly maintained sbc can go a million miles, just look at how many vortec L31 (yes, I know it's a 350 not a 327) motors are still out there with way over 200k on the clock, been beat to death, and ran out of oil, most sbc's simply won't die.

Happy motoring.

Like I said earlier, it all depends on what you want to do with your car. You probably didnt read that though? I guess you missed this part from the guy asking the questions... The car I am building will be built for the twisties and just general cruising, with some retro Trans Am styling cues thrown in. Using your theory that bigger is always better I guess the Sunoco/Penske team should have been using 307s back in the day.. I didn't see him say anything about using it to pull stumps... Did I miss that too ? No need to get your bloomers all knotted up. I was simply giving my opinion on options (based on 35 years of experience in building stuff, not just driving in fast cars) that he should look into that might be more suitable for the type of driving he wants to do. You came across like your way is the only way and I generally take offense to people who pretend to know EVERYTHING... Nothing personal of course...

I guess you missed this part from the guy asking the questions...
So in other words its fine for you to give your oppinion on the subject but not for anyone else?

Using your theory that bigger is always better I guess the Sunoco/Penske team should have been using 307s back in the day..
Not quite but close.... A lot of time/money went into the developement of the experimental semi hemi headed or porcupine motor that came really close to production. That motor had a slight over bore to to take full advantage of SCCA 305Ci rule limmit. Im sure if the limmit were 350 the LT1 would have been born in place of the 302. Im sure Charlie lillard could add some info about that motor since he owned a Z/28 with one of the few produced. I think Reggie Jackson also owned a silver Z/28 with the experimental engine. Im sure with your 35 years of experience you knew all about the SCCA rules ect.

Sure wish I would have bought that car from Charlie back in 02!

I was simply giving my opinion on options (based on 35 years of experience in building stuff, not just driving in fast cars)And everyone else has the right to voice theres so long as it doesnt conflict with yours right? Ohh, those motors didnt build themselves and yes they were very fast.. and with all that torque they were quick also.:D.

No need to get your bloomers all knotted up. I was simply giving my opinion on options.Ha ha... Me? It takes a lot more than someone with a superiority complex to get my panties knotted up lol. Again, its fine for you to voice your oppinion so long as no one disagrees with you.

that he should look into that might be more suitable for the type of driving he wants to do.
Is there an echo in here?

You came across like your way is the only way and I generally take offense to people who pretend to know EVERYTHING....Other people have oppinions and experiences also... And they arent always going to be the same as yours.

I think a lot of you old farts tell so many tall tales about whooping up on big blocks with your little 327's that over time you start to believe yourselves?... Nothing personal of coarse.

It's not "just a 327" they are good little motors that will run stripes around bigger ci motors and are reliable as heck.Kind of a vague statement. True in some cases but generally the opposite "IMO".

:stirpot::stirpot:

I really like your "stirring the pot" smiley.. It seems to be something you enjoy almost as much as pretending to be better than everyone else. I never said my opinion was the only correct one. That was the impression YOU gave.. For now you'll have to carry on without me... It's time for this "old fart" to take his Geritol and make up more war stories for you young know it alls to pick apart. Would you like me to send you a wheelbarrow to carry that ego around in ? To answer one of your questions, I have no idea EXACTLY what the rules were for SCCA Trans Am racing back in the day but also had no need to since I wasn't racing in that division... But my dad was the president of SCCNH back in the late 50s & early 60s and raced a 56 Jag XK140. Mom raced it too in the womens division. Sure wish I could locate that car. :p

But my dad was the president of SCCNH back in the late 50s & early 60s and raced a 56 Jag XK140. Mom raced it too in the womens division. Sure wish I could locate that car. :p
Yea. that would be a priceless find for sure!