I have a customer that wants to put gas logs in 2 fireplaces in one house. These are not ordinary fireplaces :noway::

One fireplace is 8' 9" wide and the gas log set they want to put in uses 260,000 BTU's / hr --- yes, you read that correctly

The other fireplace is smaller - only 7' wide - they will have a glass fireplace set that uses 100,000 BTU's / hour

Total is 360,000 per hour

Then --- at a later time --- they will be putting in a gas BBQ (40,000 BTU's / hr) and a firepit (70,000 BTU's per hour)

The gas line they ran is a 1" line with a 120' run directly out of the meter. They ran the line directly to the two fireplaces off of a "T" and came out with 1/2" lines --- one has about a 15' total run, the other has about a 5' run.

Question - Looking on the internet and talking with different people I still can't get a airtight answer if the 1" line is big enough to carry the BTU's. The other question is if the gas meter that is typically installed in residences has enough head pressure, which I will probably have to get the gas company involved. The contractor really doesn't want to involve the gas company.

Any takers? :D

Geez, are they heating the Taj Mahal? Gas regulator will have to be changed. The meter may need to be water-cooled to prevent meltdown from registering the amount of gas flow.

The gas flow is calculated with the consenses of all appliances being on full blast at one time, then the regulator and meter are selected as to the size needed for the volume. Roughly, the same steps as if using electricity.

The amount of cubic feet per minute will be needed for each appliance and added together and compared with the present supply capacity. I kind of doubt the 1 inch pipe will be sufficient. Contractor should get another outside opinion, most utility gas companies will do this figuring for free one time. Most homes are figured for the bare essentials/appliances, no extras.

JMT's. I wouldn't do it on the 'stock' set-up.

The contractor really doesn't want to involve the gas company.



Big red flag in my opinion. Dont know about your area, but around hear any gas line work requires a licensed plumber with the gas certifications.

If its not done properly and the place burns down, who's insurance is going to cover the inproper installation :(

Dear Ms. Geller:

I used to know an Engineer - but he's lost touch with himself ...

Like Mr. Everett said above, you need to calculate the CFM of gas neededto supply the appliances and plumb accourdingly.

I took the liberty of roughing out a few numbers for your perusal;
Taking the volume of 1000btu equaling about 1cfm of NG...
So - the 1" supply would flow @137cm at 9"wc thru that 120' of pipe.
The smaller feeder lines would flow @50cfm for the 15' line and @88cfm+ thru the 5' line.
As you can plainly see this would be well below you target BTU requirement for this project.
To give a ballpark on what the sizing really should look like;
A 1.5" primary feeder line from a properly sized meter would flow somewhere in the 430cfm range for that same 120' run.
The smaller feeder lines from the "T" would also need to be increased in size to generate the necessary capacity to feed the appliances.
As just an example - increasing the 15' run from 1/2" to 3/4" ups the flow from the 50cfm to 168cfm ( or 168,000btu ;) ) and 1" would give you @380cfm ...

You can do the math yourself as follows:

k = [(0.622 in)5/(1 + 3.6 / (0.622 in) + 0.03 (0.622 in))]1/2
= 0.117
q = 3550 0.117 ( (0.5 in) / (100 ft) 0.60 )1/2
= 37.9 cfh
(where; q = natural gas flow capacity (cfh) : h = pressure drop (in Water Column) : l = length of pipe (ft) : k = [d5/(1 + 3.6/d + 0.03 d)]1/2 : d = inside diameter pipe (in) : SG = specific gravity)

The pressure is termed in "Water Column" or WC.
You can contact the Gas co. to get an estimation of the "WC" available in that area from a given meter and the flow rating of the meter.
They will also help with review of the system prior to install and inspection.

Hope some of this helps.
If I see any good engineers around I'll have them give you a call :thumbsup:

ps: I didn't use actual ID's in these equations, just 'nominal' round numbers for comparision. The actual pipes would flow 'a-tad' more - your mileage may vary - batteries not included ...
pss: I totally agree with Bill above ^^^^ :yes:
Lack of inclusion of the proper authorities for the utility can only lead to trouble down the road - Oh, and never buy a Camaro with a swapped VIN ;)

Great input by all --- thanks a bunch

Bill K. - Totally understand, totally agree. Coming in as just the "lowly salesman" (eg; NOT a contractor) I was trying to do the dance with the customer and the contractor at the same time. From the surface inspection I could do with a visual check, and meeting and talking with the contractor today, it appears he did everything correctly --- I can't find my X-Ray goggles :D, so I hav eno idea if the 120' underground was done correctly but can assume it was based on all the othe rwork being done --- looks like it is about a $300,000 - $500,000 remodel. ----- The gas line was run, THEN the customers picked out the gas log set they wanted :sad: --- THEN added the idea of an ourdoor kitchen, etc.

The house is a Frank Lloyd Wright-styled house and will undoubtedly end up in magazines, feature stories in articles, etc. The people are "connected" and known, and it's just "That kind of house", if you know what I mean. I know the contractor is licensed, and he's going "by the book", but not sure if he has pulled all the necessary permits. It's not my business if he did or not --- I am just a retailer selling "stuff". It's a very tempting deal --- could end up being a $20,000 + sale --- but I'm the kind of person who will only sell them the product if I know it will work and will be safe. I've already been to their house --- today with the regional sales rep from the company that manufacturer's the logs and burners --- and I have probably logged 20+ hours into this project so far. Even the engineering department from the company that manufacturer's the burners is scratching their heads a little... that's why I posted it here. I know there are a lot of engineers on this site and wanted to get as many different perspectives and opinions as possible before I go to the next level.

John - I know you would know how to calc it out, and I was a hair's breath from calling you when I was at the customer's house today. I figured you were probably still at work and just continued with my inspection. When I went to the store I made some phone calls to manufacturer's and vendors and, before I left the store I threw it up as a thread here on TC --- I KNEW YOU WOULD SEE IT AND POST --- I just didn't think it would be this soon :cool: --- I was going to call you tonight and talk to you about it anyway but you beat me to the punch :thumbsup: --- It's up in Stockton: maybe if you want to get together, go over to Jim Dyer's and hang out for a while, grab some lunch, and I'll take you over to go check it out.. that way we can "get together" like we have been saying for the last several months :D They're on an island in the Delta :) and this house, when done, will be pretty unbelievable. Plus the owner's brother has a car museum, collects Pace Arrows, Rare Ferrari's, and some other exotic cars and, according to my customer, has more "wins" at Concours de Elegance at Pebble than anyone else ;) - Could be a fun trip if I can set it up.

P.S. - Yes - it's natural gas

P.S.S. - A couple of things I left out of the equation:

1. The gas supply line flows UPHILL from the meter, for about 60% of the run. I would say it goes up about a 10% grade, then level out... will this affect the cfm?
2. The outlet at the meter is 3/4". the tapped off of it and coupled to 1" about 3" inches from the meter... how does this affect the flow?
3. The "T" branches off to the 2 different 1/2" lines --- not a big deal to redo at the "T" --- the third lef of the "T" continues as a 1" line about 12'-14' and is capped off --- this is where the firepit and outdoor kitchen will be.

"Total is 360,000 per hour"
Do crematories even use this many btu's?

"Total is 360,000 per hour"
Do crematories even use this many btu's?

Ask and ye shall receive:

Human remains consist of 85% moisture, which vaporizes during the cremation process;10% combustible solids which release approximately 1000 BTUs per pound and transfer from a solid to vapor state; and 5% non-combustible solids which absorb heat and energy from the cremation process and remain as solids (bone fragments and ash materials) when cremation is completed. The 5% non-combustible solids are returned to the family for memorialization (https://www.matthewscremation.com/services/faqDetails.asp?faqCatid=6)

Next :D

You don't need an engineer at all, just a licensed plumber in the municipality where the work occurs. I've been doing this for 25 years and it's a very simple sizing process using basic math and sizing charts, there is nothing overly technical about it, nothing. The engineering is already done for you with tables and charts for your local area. The problem is giving answers without all the pertinent information. The first thing I would ask is are you certain the 1" line will NOT be fed with medium pressure gas? A 2.5" or 3" line could very easily be replaced with 1'' line (depending upon demand of course) if going from low pressure to medium pressure. You need to get all the facts in order first. So my first question would be are they using medium pressure gas and regulators at the location of the fireplaces, BBQ and firepit? As it stands right now with the info you've provided, a low pressure 1" line will serve 174 cfh at a distance of 125'. A 1'' medium pressure line at a distance of 150' will serve 1,012 cfh(quite a bit ,eh!!) That's based on my local charts for southern Nevada, but I can't see it being much more different in your area. The figures you stated really add up to a total of 470,000 btu/hr after it's all said and done. I can't imagine a person working on a property of this magnitude would not have the proper credentials. FWIW low pressure gas is about 6 to 8 inches water column pressure (less than one psi in most places) and medium pressure is about 14" water column pressure but not exceeding 5 psig. Just to give you an idea of a btu, it's the amount of heat needed to raise one pound of water by one degree Fahrenheit. Again, not trying to be funny or sarcastic, but sizing this pipe is a very, very simple process. Check the credentials of the contractor and/or sub contractor through your local agency for starters.

...... The engineering is already done for you with tables and charts for your local area. The problem is giving answers without all the pertinent information. The first thing I would ask is are you certain the 1" line will NOT be fed with medium pressure gas? A 2.5" or 3" line could very easily be replaced with 1'' line (depending upon demand of course) if going from low pressure to medium pressure. You need to get all the facts in order first. .....

I don't know the general contractor... just met him today. As for his plumber, I don't know if he is a licensed plumber or not. the last thing I want to do is screw the pooch, but I'm not about to short sheet myself either. I want it done safe, and I want it done right. But I have to tread lightly.

Q - How is it determined if the line is fed with low or medium pressure gas? Is that a question for the gas company (PG&E)?


......So my first question would be are they using medium pressure gas and regulators at the location of the fireplaces, BBQ and firepit? . .....

There are no regulators at the fireplaces --- just shut off valves. As far as I know, that is all that is requires with NG in a fireplace. How do you determine if they are "using medium pressure gas at the fireplaces"? I have a water colum meter, but does that measure the pressure at the fireplace, or is that something that is determined with a phone call to PG&E?

...... Check the credentials of the contractor and/or sub contractor through your local agency for starters.

Trying to walk a delicate line here. I'm not going through with the sale until I know, that I knowm that I know that it's going to work, and that it's done right. But I don't want to get in the middle of the pig trough either. I don't know what the relationship is between the customer and the contractor, but I know they are spending a bucket load of money on this house... this gas log / BBQ, etc. is but a small fraction of the whole project. Have to be somewhat diplomatic and keep everyone happy, while at the same time making sure the customer doesn't get snowed by the contractor in the process. When it is done, it WILL be done right. Just need to try to not upset the apple cart in the process.

ALL the input is greatly appreciated.

KJ
aka - Ms. Geller :D

Geez, are they heating the Taj Mahal? Gas regulator will have to be changed. The meter may need to be water-cooled to prevent meltdown from registering the amount of gas flow.

The gas flow is calculated with the consenses of all appliances being on full blast at one time, then the regulator and meter are selected as to the size needed for the volume. Roughly, the same steps as if using electricity.

The amount of cubic feet per minute will be needed for each appliance and added together and compared with the present supply capacity. I kind of doubt the 1 inch pipe will be sufficient. Contractor should get another outside opinion, most utility gas companies will do this figuring for free one time. Most homes are figured for the bare essentials/appliances, no extras.

JMT's. I wouldn't do it on the 'stock' set-up.

isnt the Taj Mahal in the Desert?

The plumber or contractor will already know if they need medium pressure or not, which is why I made reference to credentials. Since the gas line was installed before they even chose the number and type of appliances I would venture to say that they installed a line big enough to cover much more than they anticipated needing. That's why I asked about medium pressure. It doesn't cost a whole lot more to do that and nothing else would make sense. If they are just guessing at what size pipe to put in the ground I would be very skeptical. Maybe the customer changed their mind after the line was initially buried, it's hard to say. If it (IS) a medium pressure line they installed then they will be installing regulators at the appliance locations later when they are finishing the work. I'm assuming they are not finished yet since you said you havn't made the sale yet. I think it's pretty comendable for you to be looking out for your customers this way, you're going above and beyond what a lot of others may not do. That's great business practice at its best. Just know that there is no liabilty (from a safety stand point) on your part for the gas no being installed properly (if that's the case). You should simply be able to ask someone involved with the work if they are using medium pressure or not.

Rick

I think it's pretty comendable for you to be looking out for your customers this way, you're going above and beyond what a lot of others may not do. That's great business practice at its best. Just know that there is no liabilty (from a safety stand point) on your part for the gas no being installed properly (if that's the case). You should simply be able to ask someone involved with the work if they are using medium pressure or not.

RickX2! There probably is a clause/company policy in the purchase agreement of liability and warranty coverage if the appliances are installed IAW city code. Therefore, KJ, your company and you might be removed from this liability in case an unforeseeable accident ever happened.

Catch the drift? No permits, no city inspections, no sale.

Frank Lloyd Wright has designed some beautiful homes. There is one in my hometown and its absolutely gorgeous. It was THE subject matter in HS Architecture.

Yes, Taj Mahal is in the desert. Maybe I should have said the Louvre.

What happened is these people bought this house after it had been neglected for many years. The lady that last lived inthe house was 99 years old when she died and basically allowed the house to deteriorate. The people that bought it hired a contractor who began renovation this June with a crew of between 5-15 people... they have been working on it 5-6 days a week since.

The customer told the contractor that they were going to be putting "A gas log and glass burner set" in the two different fireplaces. The problem is that the customer ended up choosing what they did several months later. A "typical" gas log set will use 50,000 btu's - 80,000 btu's ---- the one they picked is essentially built for commercial purposes: hotels, restaurants, etc. The contractor ran the gas line based upon what a "typical" gas log set would be.

To be honest, I didn't even know this log set existed. It's in a catalog that I have never seen, even though I have been selling this brand of logs for many years. The customer came in to our store with a catalog that she had gotten from anothe rstore in another part of the state. I went out, looked at the fireplaces, and began to do my research. I have sold hundreds, probably over a thousamd log sets. I have never encountered something like this.

When I met with the contractor and sales representative at the customer's house yesterday we were all kind of guessing. Since the engineers from the factory had not gotten back to the sales rep yet, he was making his best educated "guess" as to whether or not it would work. The more I dig into it, the more skeptical I am. Liability or not, the last thing I want is to sell something to someone and have it come back to haunt me. On this job in particular, the customer has very defined expectations and I will either meet them, or pass on the job. It's none of my business as to what permits the contractor has pulled, but I have to know that what work he has done will allow my products to be operated safely and properly.

So, is it the black pipe itself that determines if it is a "medium pressure line", or is it the meter, or a combination of the two. I talked to my distributor (just another salesman :D) and he said that a typical residential gas meter probably wouldn't have enough pressure coming out of it to handle the btu's (but he's in a different state, so it might be different?)... should the contractor call the gas company, and can they tell him what pressure flows from the meter?

The type of pipe does not determine if it's low or medium pressure, the supply and the meter does. The pipe they put underground should either be iron pipe with a green coating, iron pipe with some "other" covering or yellow plastic. If you give me the distance from the meter location to each appliance (4 measurements), I can give you the size of each and every piece of pipe you'll need. There is NO guessing involved at all. You've already given the other variable which is the total BTU/HR rating. I can already tell you from your most recent info that a 1'' low pressure line is most certainly too small. If they end up using the line as a medium pressure line then you'll have plenty of gas. As I said earlier, if your contractor/plumber has the new updated demands for the new appliances, they will know if the meter or the source needs to be changed. It's no big deal, just a matter of who's paying the bill and how much it's worth to them.

Rick

Liability or not, the last thing I want is to sell something to someone and have it come back to haunt me. On this job in particular, the customer has very defined expectations and I will either meet them, or pass on the job. It's none of my business as to what permits the contractor has pulled, but I have to know that what work he has done will allow my products to be operated safely and properly.
If your concerned like you are saying then you SHOULD be asking about a permit. That will solve all your problems including being able to sleep at night. Permits are cheap compared to the ramifications of NOT having one. The whole idea is to have a knowledgable competent inspector see the work and determine if it's safe and will work properly. If I were you, I WOULD make it my business, then all your concerns are addressed. Like a few of the other posts have pointed out, a permit will remove liability and give everyone piece of mind. The issues will be "out on the table" and your customer will not get screwed!!!!!

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j271/dreamweaver10/Spa%20Doc/CraigPipeRun.jpg

...

... first thing I would ask is are you certain the 1" line will NOT be fed with medium pressure gas? A 2.5" or 3" line could very easily be replaced with 1'' line (depending upon demand of course) if going from low pressure to medium pressure. ...
... That's based on my local charts for southern Nevada, but I can't see it being much more different in your area. The figures you stated really add up to a total of 470,000 btu/hr after it's all said and done. I can't imagine a person working on a property of this magnitude would not have the proper credentials. FWIW low pressure gas is about 6 to 8 inches water column pressure (less than one psi in most places) and medium pressure is about 14" water column pressure but not exceeding 5 psig. ...

The max. WC I've seen in a CA home is 10wc - after the meter... which equates to @ 1/4~1/2lb. psi.
In commercial installations you can request a large flow (more wc really) meter be set that has a 2psi or 5psi output - I'm not sure if they can give you a variance to set one of these larger meters in a residencial unit? Use of higher line pressures often requires a regulator be placed at the appliance to reduce back to their required lower operating pressures - note that some 'high demand' appliances will have a built in regulator for this vary purpose, like "Wolfe" stoves...
These are questions for the plumber and Gas Co. to work out to supply the needed flow :thumbsup:

You could always throw a gauge on the cpped off end to be sure you know what you're working with ;)

I applaud Ms. Geller for trying to get this all 'on-the-table' before commiting to his "big sale" :yes:

ps: don't know if my company would like to find out I'm free-lancing for you Steve - but you can always call me as a 'freind' to discuss ;)
Oh, and never put stuff like that in an open forum :D

The max. WC I've seen in a CA home is 10wc - after the meter... which equates to @ 1/4~1/2lb. psi.
In commercial installations you can request a large flow (more wc really) meter be set that has a 2psi or 5psi output - I'm not sure if they can give you a variance to set one of these larger meters in a residencial unit? Use of higher line pressures often requires a regulator be placed at the appliance to reduce back to their required lower operating pressures - note that some 'high demand' appliances will have a built in regulator for this vary purpose, like "Wolfe" stoves...

Correct, 6 to 8 WC is the standard. I brought up the issues of regulators at the appliances in post #11. I've never heard of anyone being turned down for a gas demand up-grade as long as the gas company approves it with the proper permits. It's no different then up grading your electric service to something bigger and better, but it boils down to the local municipality. And if his area does requires a variance, so be it. Like I said earlier, it's a matter of who is going to pay and how much.

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j271/dreamweaver10/Spa%20Doc/CraigPipeRun.jpg

I'll try to say this in laymans terms. Here's what I came up with for a low pressure system for the area being added. It's based on a specific gravity of .060 and 1100 BTU per cubic feet as the conversion factor at 8" WC pressure. The main supply line (120') needs to be a minumum of 1 1/2". The section going to the fireplace on the right at 236 CFH needs to be 1 1/4". The section of pipe going to the left at 91 CFH needs to be 1". The section feeding the last two future appliances needs to be 1", that would supply 37 CFH to the BBQ and the last section of pipe feeding the fire pit at 64 CFH needs to be 3/4". Those fireplaces are really no different than most household furnaces, demand wise, and plenty of homes do have two. Your plumber/contractor has to take into consideration what the demand is also for the existing part of the home, another variable we do not know at this time. How many furnaces, cloths dryers, ranges, water heaters etc? As it stands, the 1" line is too small if using low pressure. So the choices are getting narrowed down for you, a 1 1/2" supply minimum or medium pressure. Keep us posted.

This sounds like a commercial installation be it for a hotel or a manufacturing entity that has such btu demands. Surely there are commercial plumbers who could handle this for you.

I just pulled out my pool heater paperwork, it puts out 130,000btu. When they plumbed it, they used a 2" pipe.

As to the notion that the plumber might not be licensed? The guy is restoring an architectural gem and not using a licensed plumber?

alan

Well, I talked to the contractor today... he's coming into the store tomorrow.. I will let you know the results... (crosses fingers in back :thumbsup:)

P.S. - We did the calcs for the 2 fireplaces, the firepit, and the firepit (assuming that they will want to go BIG on those as well)

We are now at 710,000 btu's/hr on these 4 little goodies, not counting the HVAC, hot water heater, oven, and whatever other house appliances they might have. Adding in a 20% overage factor, I figure we will be approaching 1,000,000 btu's / hr by the time we get to the end (REALLY) :hurray:

I might make more selling tickets to watch the meter spin when everything is turned on :D

I might make more selling tickets to watch the meter spin when everything is turned on :D

I think you should start a consulting business..perhaps you can discuss your fees when your contractor takes you to lunch ;). Or at least leverage your new found capabilities to land the order..

Don't forget to ask for a couple spots at the guest dock for John and I to dock our boats this summer for the Team Camaro fun run :).

PS...Garlic Bros is my favorite delta stop...

I think you should start a consulting business..perhaps you can discuss your fees when your contractor takes you to lunch ;). Or at least leverage your new found capabilities to land the order.....

There was a bit of fettucini spit out as I read that... KNOCK IT OFF! :yes:

Don't forget to ask for a couple spots at the guest dock for John and I to dock our boats this summer for the Team Camaro fun run :).

PS...Garlic Bros is my favorite delta stop...[/QUOTE]

Their dock is only big enough for 1 boat... for now. However.... they own another house on this island, so maybe there's room :D

P.S. -

I might make more selling tickets to watch the meter spin when everything is turned on :D


I bet it would outspin a 302!!

alan

Here is some updated information (haven't met with the contractor yet)

The appliance in my diagram that uses 260,000 stays the same... that is the only factor that remains accurate

The one that I spec'd out at 100,000 ---- that is now 220,000 btu's!

The BBQ --- well, now they want to go with a 4 burner + back burner + side cooker --- make that 80,000 btu's instead of 40,000 :D

The firepit will (depending on what size they finally decide on) will need at least 150,000 btu's

Might as well go for the whole enchilada --- I'm gonna see if they want some patio heaters too :thumbsup: ---- I figure that, if they're gonna upgrade, might as well UPGRADE :)

How about a 300 gal water heater to go with the indoor shower(s)/spa?

How about a 300 gal water heater to go with the indoor shower(s)/spa?

Nah --- I've already pitched them on a hot tub --- it's going to be all electric (much better way to go), but I have to nail down this fireplace thingy first. :p

Okay, just a thought.

Do not know where you are located,but here you have two different residental gas pressures,depending on where you live,old part of town is 10 to 12in. water column,new part of town is a 2 lb. system,w.c. pipe has to be sized for distance and volume.2lb. system in average size house is half in. pipe and regulaters at every appliance.You really need to know what your pressure is before you can do anything.

This sounds like a commercial installation be it for a hotel or a manufacturing entity that has such btu demands. Surely there are commercial plumbers who could handle this for you.

I just pulled out my pool heater paperwork, it puts out 130,000btu. When they plumbed it, they used a 2" pipe.

As to the notion that the plumber might not be licensed? The guy is restoring an architectural gem and not using a licensed plumber?

alan
I'm a commercial and industrial plumber, thats why I was trying to give him some options and recommend some questions to ask to get the ball rolling. As an FYI, all fuel piping like this in the residential and commercial/public sector is all sized and installed using the same methods and standards. The type of structure changes the type of material used but not the sizing method. It starts to change a little when you get into industrial high flow and process type piping, power plants etc. He doesn't really need a commercial plumber, any licensed plumber will be able to pipe a few appliances in someones back yard. Your 130,000 btu pool heater requires about 120 CFH of fuel. With a 2" supply, your plumber did a better job than the average bear unless the line was going over 200', and that's a good thing. Not sure if Dreamweaver saw post #15, but a permit gives everybody involved piece of mind.

I've done many large homes in the last 10 years where 2" pipe from the meter wasn't uncommon ( 3 - 4 furnaces , 2 laundries , 400'000 btu boiler , comm. type range , fireplaces ) . Bring in a Good professional and it should be done right , sizing gas pipe isn't rocket science with the correct information .

sizing gas pipe isn't rocket science with the correct information .

Amen brother!! :D I was wondering if you were going to show up.

Again, thanks a lot for everyone's input. Just so everyone knows --- I am only a retail store: we don't do installations, I'm not a contractor, etc. etc. Having said that I have always made it a practice to not step into the water until I know which way the river is flowing and, in this case, I'm glad I did. I could have easily just "sold the deal", crossed my fingers, and "hoped" it wold work out the way it should. Although I have been selling gas logs, fireplaces, spas etc. for a LONG time, this one piqued my curiosity. I know I needed to investigate as soon as I found out that just ONE of the log sets was 4 times a "normal" residential gas log set... then there were two, then there were additional goodies added. I thought I had my bases covered when I called my main guy at the distributor (who has been doing this for over 30 years, was an installer, a store owner, etc.), THEN I got a hold of the actual manufacturer's representative and went out --- for a second presite --- WITH him on the job. Still, something didn't sit right with me: hence the thread here on TC. All I can say is YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME! :beers:.

Today I called a couple of contractors and, with all the information you all posted, I at least felt somewhat comfortable in "talkin' turkey". I got what I needed from them (and an offer to finish the job if I needed to pull him in :thumbsup:), so the next stop was the gas company - PG&E. I talked to a few people, and finally got to the right department - "New Construction & Upgrades". I talked to a competent guy there and he gave me all the skinny that needed to be done. So, by now, I'm feeling pretty good, until....



I start doing a little more research --- Over analytical and under productive. I started thinking about the MASSIVE BTU's this house is going to consume, and then I realized something --- This is CALIFORNIA, and the guvenator aint gonna like it. We have this little nagging thing called "Title 24". I have studied it in the past but for other reasons. I have to do my homework on this to see if the state will even allow them to install appliances with that much draw. If anyone here knows what aspects of Title 24 relate to this, or what I need to know, pipe in. (that should be about the last of my metaphor's :D)

On the other front, I talked to the contractor's plumber --- the one who ran the line (guess the General was too busy to even give me the courtesy of telling me he wasn't going to come in today to make our appointment - I had to call him, leave a message, and he had his "guy" call me back :sad: ). As predicted, there was no permit pulled. Armed with the information I got from all of you, coupled with the info I got from the contractors and the PG&E guy I talked to, I was able to determine that this plumber doesn't have enough tools in his bag to do this job correctly. He didn't understand the exponential factor of volume flow with incremental pipe sizing --- something that every I as a lowly salesman knew before we started this little game. He thought that, since (according to him, with no other factors in the equation) you "need a 1" line for 200,000, then we need a 4" line for that much gas". I corrected him, to the degree I was able, and told him that I wouldn't proceed until PG&E gave their blessing, a permit was pulled, and the lines were drawn up according to spec and properly sized. I think I overwhelmed him and, without being condescending, let him know that I wasn't going to sell the customers anything until I knew it was done right.

I might have screwed the pooch --- and this was a potentially the largest sale (cumulatively) in my business life, but --- again --- I will sleep well.

Sorry for the long post but, unless something breaks, this is probably a dead horse, so I won't be posting again unless there is some new news.

Again, thanks and Again, TC ROCKS :beers:


EDIT:

FYI, all the gas log sets and burners and BBQ are ANSI.
The section of Title 24 that applies is part 6 ( http://www.scribd.com/doc/3684092/Title-24-Part-6-2007-California-Energy-Code )

You better check with PG&E service. You may need a new meter. There could be a limit to the capacity of their side.

Have you considered the exhaust/venting requirements for that many btu's?

Have you considered the exhaust/venting requirements for that many btu's?

He is correct. Obviously flue sizing, exit location are items that by code need to be considered. Combustion air may need to be verified depending on the area of the house and how much of that is "freely" communicating with the room the appliances are located. Also building code requires special fire rated construction to enclose a room with 400,000 B/HR of gas input to appliances. This could be a huge can of worms. Pipe sizing could be a small problem.

You better check with PG&E service. You may need a new meter. There could be a limit to the capacity of their side.

Already a done deal - if it goes through we already know the meter needs to be replaced. It's the contractor's move to go forward. Remember - I just sell the stuff :D

Have you considered the exhaust/venting requirements for that many btu's?

Yes - I already talked with the customer waaaaaaaaaay back when I first met with them... 10 days ago :) - I sell a product called "Exhaust-O-Fan" - they have a 20" diameter flue (both fireplace share the same flue) and, at this point, it's very close as to whether or not they will need it. The unit retails for about $3000 :eek:, plus an electrical run, plus installation. The process --- if I am able to sell the deal, would be:


PG&E sets the meter
A REAL plumber installs a new gas line, regulators, etc.
We sell the gas logs, contractor installs them
I come out with the factory rep from the log company and my sales rep from the distributor (they sell me the logs, Exhaust-O-fan, BBQ, etc.), and we do a thermal test and co2 test on fireplaces, flue, etc.
If we need an Exhausto, we order it and have it installed
Once the project is complete, and the customer is ready, we order the BBQ and fire pit, and go for round two
Once complete, it's time for the hot tub.
It sucks that this whole thing seems to hinge on a derelict contractor, one that the customer hired, and potentially some legislation in California that, as far as I'm concerned, is just another whacked out beaurocracy. Keepin' it real, stayin' positive that it will still go through :thumbsup:

I'm an Aerospace Engineer so I can make it fly but that's about it - then again, I am a manager now so I am pretty much NVA (Non-Value Added) :D

I'm an Aerospace Engineer so I can make it fly but that's about it - then again, I am a manager now so I am pretty much NVA (Non-Value Added) :D

Isn't there an old saying, "You can make anything fly.....if you get it moving fast enough. :D