I am continuing this thread from my engine pictures thread so that it would be appropriately titled. I purchased an engine on EBAY in early 2000. I went this route because I did not want to spend months building an engine at that time. As some of you know after a year of vibration problems I eventually tore down the engine and it was determined that the crank was not balanced or balanced properly. I went through a year trying to find this problem never suspecting the engine. I went the route of checking drive train angles, checking for engine parts hitting the car body, changed the clutch, checked that I had the correct flywheel (externally balanced), harmonic balancer, and on and on and on. The vibration was severe enough that is would vibrate bolts loose on the oil pan; the harmonic balancer broke on the sleeve (not sure if this was related to the vibration). The rear view mirror was not usable above 3000 rpms due to it vibrating so much. My whole experince with the car stunk because the of the engine vibration problems. After tearing the engine down we noticed that the bearings were wearing unevenly, the crank had minimal signs of balancing, the pistons were to small for the cylinder bore, the heads had 85 pound springs (seat pressure)for a really aggressive cam, the rods were not a matched numbered set, some of the rods had the same cylinder numbers. The bolts were all stock bolts. I was led to believe that high strength bolts were being used and the internals were all new. I don’t think the rods were new. I don’t want to trash the engine builders or EBay guys that sell engines. What was bad on my part was expecting to get a serious engine for $2200 that I would be happy with.

Lets assume for argument purposes that this guy makes $500 on each engine. The engine had new aluminum heads 58CC versions, nothing special, lets say cost him around $700. The engine had a new comp cam, lifters, roller tip rockers and chrome oil pan. Lets call all of this $400. The engine had a new eagle 383 crank ($250), bearings $100, we still have pistons, rods, oil pump, gaskets, block and other misc parts. My point to all of this is 'you get what you pay for'. I got a $2200 hundred dollar engine. You can argue with my prices but the $2200 gets eaten up quickly.

I just spent $1700 labor for race prepping my block, balancing and assembly. Maybe that is high but it broke down as $750 block prep, $300 balance (crank and clutch), $400 assembly. The other $250 was for misc things. I am very happy with my engine. Even if I overpaid a couple of hundred dollars. I liked the guy who built it and saw his work.

Now with this experience(building and buying on EBay). If I was in a hurry and wanted an engine quickly I would do the following as an alternative to an EBay crate engine. I would pick up a ZZ4 or GM 383 truck engine short block. All new parts, more than likely around $1700. Have the GM dealer install the Cam bearings and then, buy a cam of your choice, lifters and timing chain ($400), get a set of aluminum heads or cast heads with 64CC chambers or even smaller (50 CC) to up the compression to 10.5 to 1. ($700 to $1000)( some milling may be required - I did not bother looking up the what chamber size was required for these short blocks). At this point you can bolt on your intake, water pump and other necessary parts if you are running out of cash. For $2800 cast or $3100 aluminum you have a brand new engine. With a short block that has a 1 year warranty that was GM factory assembled.

Today, if I was going to buy an EBay crate engine I would want to know every minute detail. You have to consider the labor cost of building a quality engine. It is really easy to build an engine and sell it on EBAY with a cheap set of rods, rings, bearings, used oil pump and timing chain, cheap gaskets, and still have a good running engine that you are happy with. You have to take into consideration that these guys need to make money selling the engine and more than likely if the price is really good the parts are not...

Best to all,
Jeff

[ 05-28-2003, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Balboni ]

Good Advice Balboni!
I am thinking about doing what you recommended.
Too bad the 383 shortblock is $3,175.00
Why so much compared to the ZZ4 at $1,945.00
The only difference is the crankshaft.
This was at the Scoggins-Dickey web site.
I agree, this route may be one of the easiest ways build a custom engine of your choice.

Now, lets see if anyone out there has done this...

Good feedback and write-up. I was under the impression the short blocks had the cam bearings.

This violates the principle of using a factory crate engine but goldensengineservice sells this for for $1999. Pace Chevrolet has a non ZZ4 Short Block with a 4 bolt main for $1200 with heads. I don't understand why GM wants so much for their partial engine. Maybe it has to do with machining the block and the fact that this is a low volume seller. According to Sallee they do come with the oil filter and dip stick.. Maybe that's it.... Here is goldensengineservice. I am sure there are a few others but don;t list them unless you are sure of the quality.

graemlins/waving.gif
Jeff

Chevy
383 CI LT1 Stroker
Street/Strip
Short Block
$1,999.00



Block:
Thermally cleaned and Stainless-Steel Shot. Inspected by MPI process. Bored, honed with torque-plates and pressure washed. Clevite cam bearings and pioneer brass freeze plugs installed.


Crank:
Eagle Nodule-Iron


Rods:
Eagle Forged 5140 I-Beam


Pistons:
Keith Black HyperEutectic


Rings:
Speed-Pro Plasma-Moly


Bearings:
Clevite Main and Rod Bearings


Core Plugs:
Brass Pioneer Core Plugs

The 383 short block is a little cheaper at www.gmpartsdirect.com. (http://www.gmpartsdirect.com.) Not a whole lot cheaper but around a couple hundred the last time I checked. I wish the GM 383 short block was about the same as the ZZ4's, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

Marty

Do a search here for info on Golen engines. Not the greatest reputation. There have also been a few that have had problems with the cheaper GM crate motors (the 330HP 350 comes to mind) although there have been fewer problems with GM crate engines.

In my opinion, the best way by far to get a high performance engine is to do it yourself. That is the only way you 100% for a fact KNOW what parts go into it.

If you absolutely cannot build an engine yourself and are not willing to LEARN to build one yourself, at least have your engine built by someone local that has a good reputation for standing behind their work.

There have been A LOT of people around here that have been screwed with crate engines lately --- some even built by top name name companies.

I have used GROOMS'S ENGINES in Nashville Tennessee for years for regular and performance engines. They are the largest rebuilder in the mid south. The have been in business for over 35 years.

You can purchase a "lifetime" warranty on any stock rebuit engine for $99.00. What does lifetime mean? Run it out oil, overheat, blow it up once and they will replace as long as the original owner has the engine in the vehicle originally installed. This kicks in after their 18 month unlimited mileage standard warranty. This is for non commercial passenger cars. They also pay labor for take out and installation if there is a warranty claim.

They have built the original "numbers matching" engines for my Corvettes including 427's and 327's. Yes, this is a complete remanufacture and they install hardened seats as needed. Cost, about $1,300 for a 327 and $1,900 for a 427. 350's may be a little cheaper than a 327. This is a rebuild of YOUR engine and is a complete guaranteed rebuild including heads, block etc and is assembled. If you do not have the original engine, just do an exchange for what you want as you must have a core.

They also now build and sell outright 383 performance engines with all the good stuff. They are doing other performance small blocks. They even do Turbo Buick motors from mild to WILD!

This can be a very good/safe way to purchase an engine for your Camaro.

This is a first class operation/business.

Call Benny at the counter at 615 242 4308. Tell him Mike at McGee's Corvette said to call.

Eric , I tend to agree with you. I've noted your posts in the past whenever this issue arises and you're preaching is consistent. It's always good to do anything yourself, at least once , if you can. The cool thing about doing it yourself is you acrue some really neat tools. I built my own home a couple years ago, now I got 30% equity once I moved in, have all the cool tools ( I can't bitch about the builder did this or that either ).I built my own motor when I was in college, more for the lack of money than the desire , and now I have most of what I need to do it. But , I know exactly what's in it, what's been done to it and have no problems going on 20K. Oh well, I'm babbling, but I've been on the fence with this one , trying to figure out how these guys can sell all this HP with premo parts for less than I can just buy the parts. Still don't.

Eric68-
I did a search here on Golens and nothing negative came up about them. Where did you hear about them having a bad rep?

ztoy, here you go . . . it was in the General tech section for some reason.

http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000529#000000

69pace, so I preach eh? LOL I'm just a cheapskate - I just found that I can usually do better myself for less money. Not saying there aren't lots of good / fair mechanics, bodymen, etc out there, there are.

Jeff, I see you left Bedford and are now down the cape. Guess I'm not going to bump into you at a local cruise night.

Eric, personally for me, I might learn how to rebuild an engine but I gather it takes time to learn how to build a horse power producing, kick in the pants, work of art engine. This sends me to the engine builders either local or buy one and have it shipped.

Crate Motors; I have never heard anything bad about an engine from American Speed. The 383-400hp stroker is still on my wish list for my car. Info on other companies is most welcome.

Rick
Amherst NH

thanks eric. man that kind of scares me, but honestly I never had any trouble with them and both mine and my sons motors dyno'd at just about exactly what they claimed. Maybe we just got lucky or maybe they finally got it together. Either way, thank God!
So how did wildkatz's situation work out? :cool:

Scoop,

American Speed is supposed to be one of the best in the business. I've only ever heard of one problem with them... someone on this board (I can't remember who and it was maybe two years ago) got an engine from them and fired it up and there was an oil leak. Evidently after they run in their engines at their shop they disassemble, check, and reassmble. Somewhere in the reassembly somebody forgot to use some RTV or something... As I recall the problem was resolved.

When looking at their engines though it is very easy for me to see myself getting cought up in the "buying more" craze. The 383/400 horse looks good... but then only $200 more or so gets you the 425 horse version which also has 5.7'' rods. Or for that price you could have the 406/425 horse! It just spirals out of my control! :D

Ya, Eric, I'm a tight-a--, too!!

I get a kick outta building my cheap, "tow-truck" engines when somebody looks at one and asks where it came from...

Shop around for good part bargains and cultivate a good rapour(Sp?) with a good gearhead Master Machinist and read up on everything that is current and have at it!!!

I can hear a standard-deck, 598"er growing in the parts warehouses as I type, He, He!!! Justa waiting for me ta gather up the stuff and put it together...

And my 496 isn't even in my car yet, go figure b/c it's addicting!!!!

pdq67

I agree with the build it yourself philosophy. Better to know what is in it than not to know at all. Doing it yourself gives you the peace of mind that it was done right. This winter I did not have time to complete my car and build an engine. Thus, I farmed mine out to a quality engine builder. I know every piece in my engine, who made it and how it interacts with the other components. We spent a couple of hours on valve train geometry just to order the correct length pushrods. Minor details but it all adds up to a quality build.

On the other hand, one bad engine does not make a bad engine builder. The golans post could all be related to the fork lift. The rod could have been damaged when the pan was mangled. My bad EBAY engine could have been the only bad one out of 20 builds.

When you buy a long block you see a pretty painted block covered by cylinder heads (maybe a brand name version) and you really don't know what is inside. You really don't know if the cylinder heads were purchased bare and tossed together with cheap parts. You see the brand name and think 'hey nice heads'. When it is really nice bare heads, junk springs, cheapo valves, and crap seals.

My point is only if you can't build it yourself, for what ever reason, think about what is really in the 450HP, 450 Torque, 383, $3000 garden variety crate engine from Joe Engine Builder. I am still behind the option of buying a GM short block and building with that as a base. Granted if you a looking for ticket times thru the traps this may not be an option. If you are looking for a weekend barn burner with an occasional pass thru the gears at redline then a GM short block is a viable way to build. At least you know what is inside and the quality of the components. There are many ways to pump a quality short block and get great HP/Torque results.

Best Jeff graemlins/waving.gif

I have an old mag. somewhere that did a buildup of a crate motor and they tore it down right out of the crate to check it!!

Seems there was a small piece of black rubber-like material in one of the rod journal oilling holes!!! No biggy, but would have been if they hadn't checked her out first...

It always pay's to check unless it's just going to be a "beater-engine" anyway...pdq67

And what do you think of Coast High Performance? a 406 short block like Chevy hi perf used in their June mag to build an 525 lb/425 HP torque monster SB . do they build reliable short blocks?

Marc