I'm looking into a gas log for my fireplace. Where I live we already have spare the air days where no wood burning is allowed and there is a chance that no burning will be allowed in the future... This isn't about that though, just my reason for looking at low cost alternatives other than planting flowers in the thing! Also my house is on a small lot and landscaping and outdoor living space is really cutting into storage so wood is just getting to be a pain in the butt!

So what I have found is there are 2 types of gas logs, vented where the flue is opened just like burning wood and the flame looks more like you are really burning wood. This type of gas log is said to be less efficent with most of the heat going up the chimney...

The other choice I have is called "Vent Free" and the only reason I might want to open the flue is to reduce the heat output. These logs are much more efficent and I'll get more heat and burn less natural gas.

I understand the flame doesn't look as natural on the vent free because the flame has to be hotter to burn off the CO2 and other gasses... This almost sounds like a no brainer but then I read about California not allowing or just starting to allow vent free gas products to be used indoors. I also read that you should not use a vent free gas log for more than 4 hrs at a time.

This all makes me start thinking maybe I should get the vented log, it looks better, it should put off about the same heat as wood which I was using before and it's still about half as expensive as burning wood...

Anyone have any experiences with either? Kalif are you out there? I would have PM'd you but my PM box is at 100% and until I do some house cleaning I can't send or receive messages...

Dennis don't think you can go wrong either way. We love the gas log, it heats quickly and kicks out a lot of heat. I found the blower kit to be a waste of money as it puts out so much heat that I don't really need the blower to run. We moved the fireplace to the basement this year because it's needed downstairs more than on the main floor. Besides the heat should rise and the main floor benefit too.

We picked the vent free model because we wanted to install it on an inside wall and we didn't buy it until December. By that time of year here we already have quite a bit of snow so running the chimney through the roof wasn't an option until spring. We run a carbon monoxide tester (not a cheap one, but one we bought from the utility company) in the living room and it never indicated any elevated levels even when we ran it for 8-10 hours straight on the coldest days. The one downside I see with the vent free is over the course of a winter you might notice a slight white residue on the windows and other things. My brother in law advised me of this and it's so minor for me that it's really hard to even see it. It's the one reason I almost didn't buy the vent free, but for us it's not noticeable.

Wife loved turning on the gas fireplace first thing in the morning and the dog and cat claimed the rug in front of it as their territory for the winter. I'm glad we picked the vent free and would do it again. Like I said when we remodeled the living room we moved the fireplace to the basement and it's an easy hook up, just run the gas line. One of the reasons we bought this was to have a heat source that required no power to run. We had an ice storm that knocked the power out for 3 days here in the middle of winter before we bought the fireplace and I was in Europe for the month. My wife had to make do until power came back on. At least now she's has an option for heat.

If you can find a set with an oxygen depletion sensor,go with the ventless you can always open the damper if needed

Go with either, Den...and if you put in the right amount of chemicals that burn, then arrange them right... you can get a nice flame. Have had a "Heat n' Glow" straight out vent for seven years now, and nary a prob...except to clean the front glass every two years or so.

And as Dave mentioned, the blower is over $200, and the recovery heat isn't worth the cost.

capt

Yes, we have 24K BTU ventless logs installed by a plumber, permit required.
Vented logs need a flue and heat goes up the flue.

We do, as Dave from MI, run ours 8-12 hours a day and have not had a problem, CO2 alarm does not go off, but then we have a dog door with 5 dogs and and three bathroom vent fans meaning they vent all the time by natural flow, heat rises.

We run ours on position 2, 1 thru 4, maybe 3 to speed the process up, and place a box fan in front to circulate - toasty! Keeps the down stairs warm, furnace doesn't run.

You'll need the hood to protect the mantle and screen to keep foreigners out of it.
The installer should install two valves, one outside and one inside on the side of the firebox for your safety - inspection thing - zoning rules and common sense.

Doesn't DreamWeaver sell these things?

As a home inspector for 5 years I would never install a ventless fireplace in my home. Many states have even outlawed them. Here's a pretty good video:

YouTube- Ventless fireplace or heaters ruin homes and make you sick

Just installed gas logs for much the same reasons, tired of the dealing with the wood.
I had to have a propane tank installed since no NG on our street.

The place I purchased the log set from does not sell the ventless and I agree with them from what I have read.

Keep in mind the damper has a catch installed on it to prevent it from fully closing, this is code. Does the fireplace have good doors to help seal out the cold when it will be off? This also will depend on if you have a standing pilot light. The gas logs do put off some good heat, but with no fan it will not heat the room. I did not care about doing this for heating but just for the looks. And it does look really good and we have had a fire going at night almost every night since install.

Check out this site for some real looking stuff:
http://www.rhpeterson.com/

Expect to pay $500 to $800 depending on the gas valve setup, manual vs remote turn on. Plan on adding some pine cones and small wood chunks around the bottom of the fireplace to fill in and make it look better.

Real happy making the switch, I think the last thing to add will be the crackler!


Kevin

Dennis,

I put in a Pacific Energy direct vent (DVI) unit a few years ago vs. just logs and also put one in for my inlaws. Purchased both from a spa and fireplace store in Morgan Hill on Monterey Rd. I had to run 120v into the fire box for the blower and tap into the gas line. Past that the rest of the install was pretty straight forward including the tubes down the chimney and vent cap.

I would be happy to help you if you want.

Thanks for all the replies guys... I'm really just looking for a gas log, being unemployed (both family incomes) doesn't afford or justify an expensive system with blowers etc. My fireplace already has a gas starter plumbed in with a control valve in the floor next to the brick hearth. I don't want or feel I need anything electrical involved and figured a $200 or so gas log would be a simple replacement for the gas burner tube already in place.

For a few years when I was a kid my room was a converted garage (done to code) and the only heat was a gas lava rock (vented I assume) fireplace. I didn't pay the gas bill back then (even if it wasn't much) but do pay it now and hearing about vent-less has me courious. It's a couple bucks more than vented, comes with options like a pilot light and remote and puts out more heat...

Dave I hear what you are saying and appreciate it, your choice in video, though graphic told me all I needed to know about the author when he slipped in his political spew at the end... His crediblity as an information source is now zero in my book! He also lost me with the part about states starting to outlaw vent-less when in fact up till now they are legal in all but 3 states and one CA is changing it's law against them or already has leaving only 2 states outlawing them. To be honest the video reminded me of a Rainbow Vacuum sales pitch where they vacuum your mattress and show you dead skin then provide you info about dust mites and bed bugs living on dead skin! All truth but to what degree? We all managed to grow up through a lot of things that now are said to be poisioning kids. I was on the road 3 nights a week staying in hotels when all the news shows reported fecal matter on remote controls and all the other germophobic stuff they were reporting. Nothings changed in hotel cleaning practices except now they all use plastic throw away glasses so the maids can't wash your glass in the toilet.

I digress, just how much water is generated by a vent-less fireplace log? I live in a CA tract home built back in 1970 or so and it's not real air tight, even when it's rained here every day from December to April we don't get condensation on the windows. I already have a CO detector that we installed before I ever brought home the first 1/2 cord of wood when we moved in.

If I have a concern it is the moisture, I don't want wet windows or walls, and surely don't want mold growth! Is this moisture a geographic issue where say the outside temps are much lower and the house is already dark and shady and trapping moisture to begin with? By Calif standards we have 4 seasons (no snow though) with some nightly lows in the 30's and a night or 3 dropping into the high 20's. The worst daytime lows might be in the 40's but not a lot of them. We can have a lot of rain at times, it's expected from Dec - Apr and some winters it has rained almost every day during this time. Usually rain keeps the temp up and no rain means colder days and nights.

Again thanks for the input,

Here is a web site with a bunch of good video's and info

http://www.gaslogguys.com/


Kevin

..........If I have a concern it is the moisture, I don't want wet windows or walls, and surely don't want mold growth! Is this moisture a geographic issue where say the outside temps are much lower and the house is already dark and shady and trapping moisture to begin with? By Calif standards we have 4 seasons (no snow though) with some nightly lows in the 30's and a night or 3 dropping into the high 20's. The worst daytime lows might be in the 40's but not a lot of them. We can have a lot of rain at times, it's expected from Dec - Apr and some winters it has rained almost every day during this time. Usually rain keeps the temp up and no rain means colder days and nights.

Again thanks for the input,

The moisture is a product of the combustion. Standard gas ranges are not vented and put out about .7 lbs of water per hour, assuming the range (all burners on) burns about 36,000 BTU/HR of natural gas. I would assume that the gas log burner is no more than that so may not be a problem by itself. A good practice is to have a window cracked open for combustion air to be replaced and that will dilute and help control moisture.

If you are putting these logs in a masonry fireplace then it would be vented and moisture is not a problem. Are you considering closing the damper to burn? Our climate here is dry in the winter so additional moisture is welcome. We always have a kettle of water sitting on the wood stove will operating.

If going vented is the way to go then a tight fitting glass front should capture energy and heat up to give you more radiant heat than an open front.

Dennis, PM Dreamweaver - he knows a thing or two about them ;)

Dennis, PM Dreamweaver - he knows a thing or two about them ;)

I was hoping he would see this and post up... As I said earlier because of other issues my PM box is full, I can't send PM's until I make some time to clean it out...

Dennis,

To tell you the truth, I was looking for a different video and came across that one. I didn't watch it to the end to see the political statement. I just watched the first part that had the information I wanted you to know about. I'm not sure though, why it would come across as a sales pitch. It's from a home inspector that has nothing regarding a logset to sell. I'm not inspecting homes anymore...back to flying...but as a home inspector we really are just trying to educate home owners on various issues. Of course every issue has two sides. I, and most of the industry are going to err on the side of safety. The concerns about ventless units that were expressed in the video is the overwhelming opinion in the home inspection industry.

If you are just putting a logset in an existing fireplace then it's a simple solution to buy a basic logset and put in a damper block.
:beers:

I'm quite shocked that they are still allowed to install/sell non vented units. I'd have nothing but a direct vent unit, (Or a power vent but prefer direct vent) for safety, reliability and economy, unless you are into growing pot then the added CO2 is a bonus. Just as a side note folks, the CO cell in CO detectors are only good for a max of 5 years and that is from manufacture date not purchase date. I'm from a much colder climate then most of you folks so I do have a bias though. Be safe my friends, be safe! The co is the killer don't get it confused with CO2.

Sorry DJ --- I just got a PM from Gary... haven't been on the site much lately. I just finished up a 4 week-long battle with the San Joaquin Valley Air Pollution District, the sister of the BAAQMD. Made my final presentation yesterday at the Board meeting, and we "celebrated" a bit too much last night--- just recovering :D

I'll text you my cell number (don't you still have it???) and you can call me with any questions.

Vent free is still illegal in California and, as far as I am concerned, it can stay that way. No offense to those on the board here who own them, but I would never have them in my home. If they ever make them ilegal here I still won't sell them. Just a personal perspective but, when yo boil it down, it's just itty bitty bits of poison being emitted into your living spaces. When i cook with the gas range I crack a window and it would never be on 1/10th the time a gas log set might be on in a fireplace.

A couple of things to consider:

1. Make sure you clean and "seal" the fireplace when you install a set of gas logs... you can seal it with high temp black paint

2. If you are on propane you MUST install a spark arrestor... mandatory for propane in Calif, a good idea in any circumstance.

3. Don't go for the "Cheapo-Depot" version... they are made of concrete, not ceramic, and they tend to crumble in a couple of years.

4. Measure the middle of your fireplace, and get a size that's at least 4 inches smaller, even smaller yet if you want a pilot assembly.

5. If you are using propane DO NOT use sand... use vermiculite instead. If it doesn't come in the kit, get it. The sand on natural gas, or vermiculite on propane, acts as a diffuser. The glowing embers can be used on either and is for effect only.

6. After it's installed, check the logs after they have burned for a while. If you see a black build up, that's carbon... very bad for your health. If you get a black build up, reposition the logs, clean them off, and check it again. You should clean off your logs on a regular basis... the best way is to use a clean paint brush and just "dust" them off... I recommend using a dust mask.

Here's the brand I sell... http://www.rhpeterson.com/ - Let me know if I can help.

P.S. - You should talk to a Mod or someone about increasing the size of your PM box :D

Thanks Steve and everyone else... I'll go with a vented unit and stay within CA law. I guess just as much heat goes up the chimney when burning wood and we certainly can stay toasty warm with a few logs burning... Steve we will be in touch shortly.

Hey, what's the reason for paint the fire box black? Just the floor? or? All the install demos I have looked at just put lava rock around the tray, no painting shown..

Dennis,
Not trying to cloud your decision on a gas fireplace....but have you looked into a pellet stove insert? They are very popular here in MD.

Take Care

Dennis--- sent you a text message

Dennis,
Not trying to cloud your decision on a gas fireplace....but have you looked into a pellet stove insert? They are very popular here in MD.

Take Care

Pellet stoves suffer the same burn curtailments as do wood stoves in both Dennis' and my air districts. The EPA has established air districts all over the US to establish air quality standards in different regions. For example, I live in the Central Valley in California, and our air quality is pretty bad because of, among other things, something called an inversion layer. As such, our wintertime particulate matter (PM 2.5 / PM 10) from wood smoke does not meet federal standards under the Clean Air Act. In addition to retrofitting emissions systems in different industries, incentivizing the replacement of gas lawn mowers with electric ones, upgrading buses, etc., one of the measures they have adopted is "Burn Curtailment" programs. That means that, when the Air District looks at their meters and thinks the following day(s) will not meet the new AQI (Air Quality Index) standards they have set forth, they don't allow wood burning... or pellet. A pellet stove for Dennis will put him under the same restrictions as an EPA certified wood stove, a "smoke belching" gross polluting non-EPA stove, or an open fireplace... the Air District sees them as all being the same.

Dreamweaver, I was curious to see what your opinion on ventless was going to be. Now, if you don't mind, I can add the opinion of an industry expert to my list of reasons to avoid them. An expert that could reap a financial benefit from selling them and just look the other way on the health hazards. :hurray:

Well, it's just an opinion. I know that most states allow it and I know many dealers across state lines that sell them. The research I have done is what leads me to the conclusion that I would personally never have one in my house. If I wouldn't own one, I wouldn't sell it either. An easy call. I don't belittle those who own them... I just wouldn't have it.

Just for clarification, a set of "gas logs" is not a gas fireplace insert. They both burn gas, and they both have logs, but that's where the similarities end. Log sets are typically 10%-20% efficient. People don't usually buy them for heating purposes, but for decorative. They will produce some heat, but nothing like a gas insert, which can be upwards of 80% NET efficiency. Two different animals.

Dreamweaver,

Do you sell online, or just from a retail location?

Pretty much just from a retail location. But one of these days I will probably be forced to start an E-division. If it's something I can ship UPS I have done it, but the Big Ticket items are things that should be bought from a local professional. I won't even sell a spa or stove outside of my service area because I feel an obligation to service what I sell. But I can always answer questions and at least point people in the right direction. If nothing else, I can usually connect someone with a dealer in their area.

Dreamweaver,
Thanks for the education :thumbsup:
I guess things here in MD are not that strict yet, but I'm sure in the near futrure that could all change. :yes:
This is one of the reasons I like this site so much.....even though we are all Camaroheads.....we all have our area of expertise and are willing to give good advice in that area when asked. :thumbsup:

Take care. :beers:

... Just for clarification ... a gas insert, which can be upwards of 80% NET efficiency. ...

The misses had one of these installed in our living rooms years back :thumbsup:
Granted we live in "Sunny Kalifurnea" - but the the Bay Area Valley we live in has some of the coldest temps around here :yes:
We use our insert for almost ALL our needed heat in a reasonably sized two-story (her's and mine l:) ) multi-level home - it will keep the temp @65~68 when set to 'low' on all but the coolest days of the winter (sub-freezing) :cool:
It's a "LOPI" unit - just like Steve sells :D
Cost to run it is well under what it cost to run the Forced-air system ...

How do you heat the whole house with it John? I can stoke a wood fire that will heat the living room to discomfort but it doesn't extend more than a foot or two beyond the 8 foot wide opening to the rest of the house. I understand the gas insert really puts out but how does the heat produced get down the hall to other rooms?

An "regular" open fireplace --- one that does not have a heat form or a "Heatilator" in it --- can be be anywhere from a 10-15% efficiency to a NEGATIVE 10-15% efficiency... Yes - they can actually have a thermal cooling effect. As everyone knows, most of the heat goes up the chimney.

the insert that John has is called a Direct Vent gas insert. It takes outside air in for combustion, draws it into the firebox, and then exhausts it back out. In other words, it uses no inside air for combustion. Therefore it actually "pressurizes" the house with heated air.

It's always a trick to get air to flow from one zone to another. the inserts have a fan, but it only circulates air through a heat exchanger and forces it out at xxx cfm into an open air space. there are ways to get your air to circulate from the "heat zone" into other parts of the house... ceiling fans, doorway fans, cracking a window at the opposite end of the house, etc.... but the bottom line is that these will produce a constant heat source and it puts heated air directly into the living space, no through plenim, a duct system, out registers, etc. So, the NET effeciency (multiplier of combustion efficiency times heat transfer efficiency) is WAY more than a central heating system.

I have used a gas appliance --- both fireplace and insert --- in the last 4 houses I have owned and, personally, I wouldn't have anything else. Of course I am on natural gas... if it were propane, it might be a different story. I just sold a pellet stove to someone today who only has propane available... pellet makes more sense for them.

How do you heat the whole house with it John? ... I understand the gas insert really puts out but how does the heat produced get down the hall to other rooms?

Well ... as 'heat rises' ... :D
j/k Dennis ;)
First off, the floor plan of the downstairs is mostly wide-open after I did the remodel. I removed all the partition walls between the living, sitting, dining and kitchen areas and there are just a couple French-doors (usually open) into the den.
So the heat circulates fairly well through the area with just the fan output of the insert.
I also installed as much insulation as I could in every part of the remodel - that investment has paid for itself many times over in just the last few years :hurray:
(we only ran the AC 4 days last summer :thumbsup: )
Since we mostly 'live' in the downstairs area during the evening hours it will really keep the area quite 'comfy' on all but the coldest evenings.
I will often turn the "Fan" switch on the main sytem controls to 'on' to circulate the warm air upstairs and the recycle it back down to the intake on the lower floor - this helps even the temps out upstairs.

But you're right - this is just my wife (who isn't one of those "I'm cold, turn the heat up" sorts ladies ;) ) and myself usually, if this involved a family of folks with different comfort levels in widely disbursed parts of the house I doubt you could use this system like we do.
So this may be more of a 'it works for us' type of situation.

The cat does prefer we just leave the insert on all the time ... :bow:

How do you heat the whole house with it John? I can stoke a wood fire that will heat the living room to discomfort but it doesn't extend more than a foot or two beyond the 8 foot wide opening to the rest of the house. I understand the gas insert really puts out but how does the heat produced get down the hall to other rooms?

I installed an inline fan and sucked the excess heat out of the fam room and dumped it in the hall at the other end of the house. It doesn't directly heat all rooms but it is near the return air grill for other end of the house. You will never get enough natural convection to move heat from one end to another. Now rising up to a second story is a different matter.

Dennis,

Just to add to what's been said, our insert is in our family room of a 1750 sqft ranch and I use the same ceiling fan that helps cool that room in the summer to spread the heat throughout the house, just run it the opposite direction. Our insert has a multi-speed blower that I general set to one of the middle settings even though sometimes this is too much heat for me but the wife loves it. Oh well, guess that's why I have a garage.

Are these gas logs made to replace wood in an open fireplace, using the log lighter gas supply?

Are you guys kidding me... I just back up the camaro, pop the trunk and bam there we go instant fire place... Just kidding good thread as i also have a fire place with gas, logs and exhaust right up the chimney with very little heat coming out in the living room.

So can ventless logs be used in a vented gas fire place? I have a ventless log set from my last house (which included the burner) and i recently moved to a new house with a gas vented chimmeny. can i use the ventless logs in my vented chimmeny as long as they are the correct size? Would i leave the vent to the flute open or closed?

thanks

Are these gas logs made to replace wood in an open fireplace, using the log lighter gas supply?

Yes...

Are you guys kidding me... I just back up the camaro, pop the trunk and bam there we go instant fire place... Just kidding good thread as i also have a fire place with gas, logs and exhaust right up the chimney with very little heat coming out in the living room.

There was a time I thought you were going to install a chimney on that thing! ;) LOL... :stirpot:l:)

Thanks to all for the comments and advice, I can't afford a gas insert so it will have to be a vented gas log... Now to get the wife to sit down and look at my choices and then pick a totally different one! ;)

Use a dartboard and a blindfold to chose.......LOL

Thanks to all for the comments and advice, I can't afford a gas insert so it will have to be a vented gas log... Now to get the wife to sit down and look at my choices and then pick a totally different one! ;)

Try to fit a glass front into the budget. You can recover some of the heat to radiate into the room and control the air getting sucked out of the house.

Try to fit a glass front into the budget. You can recover some of the heat to radiate into the room and control the air getting sucked out of the house.

Got the glass doors years ago... My understanding is you have to leave them open any time there is flame (wood or gas log). The one time I had them closed the handles got so hot I had to use pot holders to open the doors to add logs. We close them except when the fire is lit.

So can ventless logs be used in a vented gas fire place? I have a ventless log set from my last house (which included the burner) and i recently moved to a new house with a gas vented chimmeny. can i use the ventless logs in my vented chimmeny as long as they are the correct size? Would i leave the vent to the flute open or closed? thanks

I'm not 100% sure, since I don't sell them, but I would thing it is OK to install in a vented fireplace. Get a damper clamp (or make one) if you want the carbon dioxide and moisture to go out the chimney instead of inside the house :D