After spending the better part of the week checking codes and numbers, it appears da ragtop's short on power cause some bozo put 327-210 head on my #'s matching 275 HP motor!!

Looks like my main winter project will be to pull the engine, detail under the hood, and make it right with my 327.

Heads? Should I dig up a set of correctly dated 3917291 double humps and have em rebuilt at an estimated cost of 8-900?

Or put my $'s into a set of modern alluminum heads that flow better, are more effiecent, and less likely to ping?

I'm gonna change the cam too, and probably the gearing from 3.08 to 3.55 or 3.73. What cam should I use?

Car is a driver, around town mostly. Has an m20. Rarely goes over 4500 rpm, and (with the 210hp heads) won't go over 5500. Course, that could change... (grin)

I want something with a little bit o wicked at idle, and good to great mid range torque. Originality is somewhat, but not completely important to me.

[ 08-22-2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: JimM ]

I will be curious as to what people will say. I currently have a 327 with camel humps and will be doing some overhauling soon. If you are planning on spending 800-900 the question is should spend just a little more and get the afr 180. The torque and HP curve is great upto the 5000-6000 rpm. I have been doing alot of reading lately and combined with a single pattern cam these heads sound pretty awesome.

haha I'm curious too, come on guys, it's been an hour and a half...lol

OK, I'm here!!

please do a search for me b/c I have mouthed off about mild, "run like a scalded-dog", 327 combinations so much I figure everybody is sick of my "mouthing"..

Remember, GM got the little motor almost dead-nuts right, right outta the hole b/c it really doesn't take much to make one run FINE!!

A 268 to a 274 hy-cam and a set of cheap, Z-28, (-142), valve springs. A schosh under 10 to 1 CR. for cast-iron heads. A set of cheap, 1.625", four tube, long headers along with a 600 cfm, Holley 1850 carb. and a good old 300-36 Holley true high-rise intake and finally big valve heads no bigger then 180's AND IMHO, the stock, double-hump, 160's AND 170's run fine two!!

AND if you really want to have a fun motor, then go a good forged 11 to 1 CR. rotating assembly and run a 240 to 250 duration at .050" solid cam!!! But make sure you are geared and tired right b/c she will lose a lotta lowend but will put a smile on your face up top, that Mr. Clean won't be able to wipe off!!

I have been in the car of my long gone buddy's and seen an Isky Z-30 solid cam still pulling in a 375hp/327 motor at 7,200 rpm!! IN forth gear!!!

pdq67

I'd go with a set of 170cc-180cc aftermarket aluminum heads and a good dual plane manifold. Depending on your compression ratio and how high you want to spin it, a cam in the 220-230@.050 range might work nice.

pdq67 I always enjoy your posts, Some of the things you say really brings back the memories!

John

Jim,
Just because I like listening to Paul.
You can try the combo I'm running now, though Paul scoffs a bit at my DCR. The 270H is rated by comp as being the cam for the 327/275 that according to Comp is good for 350hp. I have to tend to agree. It's got a nice little lope to it at idle without being a total give away. I found my heads on epray for $160, $300 for machining as they were origionally the 1.94's / 1.50s then another $140 for the springs. Lucky enough the dates on em happen to be within a month of my block. From what I can tell, though limited my experience is in such things. The motor should be pumping about 400+hp. Right where I wanted it. I just love litte 327 mice!

Yes, I shoot for anywhere from 7.75 to a schosh above/below 8 to 1 DCR so pump gas can be ran!!

But please use whatever DCR that you find works the way you want it to for you like Nantooch .

I will say a high rpm, short stroke, solid cammed SB is music to my old ears going up through the gears!!

pdq67

Thanks guys... It will end up a 10:1 motor w/ 64cc heads. Seems comp has always been cam of choice here, good enuf for me. How does one figure dcr? That's gonna be important... I've always wondered why my 10:1 motor simply WON'T ping, 'course now I know, it's 8:1!

I think I'm starting to lean toward a stock look stealth setup. Anyone have a set of 291's and or a good dp manifold they don'y need anymore? Need heads dated mid jan to early feb '68.

I have a weiand stealth intake sitting in the garage.

I also have a set of Dart Iron Eagles ( 180 cc intakes) 72 cc combustion chambers angle plug with 500 miles on them , I'm thinking of getting rid of. I would want $650 plus shipping. I made 325 RWHP with them, but now i want aluminum's.

Mike

let me know

Jim,

I've been looking at the hydraulic ISKY 264 megacam for my 327 here lately... 214/214 @.050 .450/.450 lift 108LSA

It is mild,but should have a little "chop" at idle due to the tight 108LSA. And it should run fine in a 327 with good heads to about 5500~ish RPM...

Rats MIKE!-I would scarf up those Dart Iron Eagle 180's from you but my funds are already committed to a front suspension re-build / disk brake upgrade as my next project... BTW, what is the model # of your Weiand Stealth intake, is it an #8016? If so, let me know if you want to get rid of it.

Thanks,
- Mark P.

yes it's a 8016. yes i'll get rid of it. I don't know what their worth? Maybe $75 and you pay shipping from 46544 ?

the intake is clean and in great condition.

Vortecs there is no better street head. If you have ever tried a set you will never use anything else on a true street motor.

Mike,

You have mail.....

- Mark P.

The GOOD 3917291 big valve double-hump heads I got off my nephews 283 motor I finally ended up with are code dated K-6-7 = Nov. 6, 1967 and J-31-7 = Oct. 10, 1967!!

Sorry, probably too old..

pdq67

Searching your old posts now, Paul. Tell me about your heads... a month or two older would be nice, but if they in good shape and the price is right, who knows? Does anyone out here have a good dp mainfold with a hole for an oil filler tube? Anyone else have a pair of 291 heads dated dec-67 - jan 68?

Hehe, I'm startin to get excited here...

JEEZ Paul... I searched for pdq 67 and 327, got 3 PAGES! I'll be reading for a while.

JimM

If you lean back toward looking at AFR Heads, just got a good size shipment in of 180cc, 195cc, 205cc (LS1) in stock. The numbers of AFR's we have in stock are posted on the site listed below.

Been shopping, not buying yet, head's startin to spin real bad...The kind where you gotta put a foot on the floor when you lay down?

Heads: Unless I can find a set of 291's that can be made rtr for $600, I'll buy edelbrocks, found em for $930 free shipping, might be better than iron with 10:1...
Paul, Details on your "good" 291 Heads????

Intake: DP High rise, and I'd lik to put the oil filler tube back on, they don't make em with da hole anymore... anyone got???

CAM: dis is where da spin starts... Went to compcams.com.... must be 40 cams in the 220-240 @ .050 range. 108 -110 -112 lobe centers.. blah blah blah...

Dis lil motor scares me to death. Only one i had before (I didn't build it) was peaky as hell, and threw a rod. Motor's I built was big... 400 sb, 396 /454... mild cam, never over 6000, pure tire melting torque. I can't free the $ to do that now.

I need all the mid range torque this 327 can give. Won't spin it too tight, don't wanna hurt it. don't mind, even like, a lopy idle. Gotta keep the cylinder pressure to where;'s she won't ping on pump premium....

And on top of that, I'm just dyin to do it RIGHT NOW... and I can't cause she'll be down for a month, and it's still ragtop season here in the windy city!!!

Doesnt seem that my suggestion held any weight on the cam choice, but here's some more info for what it's worth then I'll leave it.
Small bit of the write up -
Hydraulic Magnum Muscle Camshaft for
327 cu in. 1965-68 Factory 350 H.P.
327 cu in. 1965-68 Factory 325 H.P.
http://www.compcams.com/Technical/Search/CamDetails.asp?PartNumber=12-211-2

At Summit for $93.95
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=110&Ntk=KeywordSearch&Ntt=camshafts

They are just good old big valve heads that were on my nephews 283 motor, that's all.

Like everything else I have, they too will need cleaned up just like I am doing to my -601 heads now.

But I will say, I wouldn't be afraid to clean them up, look the springs over to check for any rust, drop some new seals on them and not even do anything to the seats and run them as stockers!! You know, the old "Krylon overhaul" thing...

E-mail meat home.

pdq67

Tx Paul... Gonna do a bit more research before I decide, any idea how many $ it take for them, including transportation to zip code 60543?

Nantooch, your suggestion carries plenty of weight, and I thank you. That part # is also sold as the High Energy 270H, and is one of many possibles on my list. Tell me more about how it runs, particularly Mid range?

Another I've been thinking about is the Extreme energy 268. As compared to the 270H, it has way higher lift, and longer exhaust duration at 280.

Still hoping for an alluminum high rise dual plane manifold with a hole for an oil filler tube... Anyone?

Something else I've been thinking about is trying to buy back a Blazer I sold a few years ago, and use that motor. A 350 w/ flat tops & 70CC Edelbrock heads, along with a holley TBI. Add a lil more cam, and that motor would rock!

Jim, The low end has great torque to it and is able to spin the tires through a TH400 and 3.08 rearend. At 40 -50 getting on the freway, punching it will still push you back in your seat letting you know your still in a muscle car. I've not taken it above 80 to see what its like, but at 70 she's still awake and ready to move.

The edelbrock rpm intake is setup to take a fill tube, it just has to be punched out and cleaned up first. I was origionally going to go that route and bought the tube, but ended up with breathers on the valve covers instead. I know that fill tube on the 327 was highly distiguishable, but wanted the engine to have a more streamlined appearance.

I need to chime in here, since I am building a '69 235/327 for my Chevy II (basically the same as a 210/327).

I plan to install some late model Iron L98 heads (64cc, with port size and flow similar to camel backs). I am keeping my PG and I will run 3.08 gears and upgrade to 3.55's at some point. I also plan to run a 2500-3000 stall. Calculated CR will be ~9.35:1.

Which one of these cams will give the strongest midrange (2500-4500) grunt?

Isky 264 Megacam: 264/264 @ .006open/.009close, 214/214 @ 0.050, .450/.450, 108 LSA, 108 ICL

Crane 272H: 272/272 @ 0.004, 216/216 @ 0.050, .454/.454, 110 LSA, 105 ICL

Comp 268HE: 268/268 @ .006, 218/218 @ 0.050, .454/.454, 110LSA, 106 ICL

With the PG, I will need as broad and flat of a torque curve as possible, as the engine will be in the 2500-4500 rpm range for most of the 1/4.

Thanks!

PS: I've searched this board extensively, and found lots of good 327 info... long time reader, first time poster! smile.gif

Heads: Unless I can find a set of 291's that can be made rtr for $600, I'll buy edelbrocks, found em for $930 free shipping, might be better than iron with 10:1...
Paul, Details on your "good" 291 Heads????


I can set you up with my iron eagles for a touch more than this. I want $650 plus shipping. Their 180 cc int ports, 72cc combustion chambers, 2.02-1.60 valves ( manley) 10 deg locks,retainers, dual valve springs, PC seals. these have 500 miles on them. They will look like a stock head, but perform MUCH better for the same price. I made 325 RWHP with them and 3.08 gears 224-234 hyd cam 112LSA 495-510 lift with 1.6 .

I put the engine back in next week, if their not sold by then, they go back on.


Mike

i see your from IL. we could skip shipping and work something out. I'm from SouthBend, IN.

John65Nova,

FWIW, I've done a lot of DD2k testing with 2 of those cams (ISKY and Crane) in a 327. All of my tests were set up with Dart Iron Eagle 180cc heads,9.5:1 compression, a "dual plane" intake,625cfm 4bbl. carb.,and small tube headers with mufflers.

So far,the ISKY 264 megacam has the best torque profile with the above combo(peak HP was 352@5,000RPM). The Crane 272/272 makes just slightly more HP between 5K and 6K RPMS
at the expense of some low RPM torque(Peak HP was 358@6,000RPM).

I'm liking the ISKY for a good all-purpose mild STREET CAM
with a good blend of HP and Torque. If you plan to do any racing, you'll need more cam though.

-Mark P.

john65nova. my friend runs that comp 268 HE in his 327 with 9.5-1 and performer intake double humps 4 speed and 3.08 gears. The car runs well, has lots of driveability and sounds nice too.

Granny's 69.... just wondering... what happens to the curves when you start restricting the heads? My L98s will likely not flow as well as Iron Eagles.

I suspect the Crane and Comp cams will idle a little better than the Isky. 108 LCA should make that Isky pretty choppy.

From everything I've read, Crane and Comp sound like the "safe" choices, as others have already used them with success in 327 engines. I can't find much info on the Isky.

John,
What are the intentions with the motor. I see you mentioned the 1/4, but is this going to be a street/strip combo, or street or strip only? What other parts will be used and what is your idea for max hp this motor will produce? Your post was a bit vague and answering these questions will give us a rounded area to suggest alternatives. I'm partial to the 270H, but If I could recall the cam I had back in my old 69 327 Id've prolly gone with it too. It was a sleeper cam. Had no noticable lope to it, but was such a long duration that it acted like a race cam.

John65Nova,

I have never run the D2k numbers with those cams and the L98 heads, but I have run the cams thru DD2k with the 1.94/1.5" Vortec heads and the numbers were almost identical to the IE180's until 5K RPM where the IE180's pulled ahead by a hair.

Another cam that may be worth looking into is the Comp. XE256 (212/218@.050 .454/.454 lift 110LSA) the DD2k numbers are virtually identical to the ISKY 264 megacam...And there are a couple of people around who have run the XE256 in 327's from what I understand.

- Mark

I want to stay away from the XE cams... too many people with flat ones, it seems.

I noticed Trick Flow sells a cam that is 266/272, 210/216, .440/.454 110 LSA. Looks like the Crane cam that is on 114 LSA... I'll bet it is made by Crane. Would be interesting to see what that does in a 327 on a 110 LSA. I fear I would be killing top-end (above 4500) with a 210 deg intake though.

I really would like to stick with a 110 or less LSA, as I need to pump up the midrange as much as possible with a PG (which I won't be changing anytime soon, though I know I "should" ;) ).

Mike 1978, you're killin me... I could drive half way to south bend tomorrow, pick up 50 or so HP Sunday, and wait till winter to pull the 327,, mill the eagles to 64cc, detail everything, change cAms, mainfold, and pick up another 50... and those eagles are fine heads...

If you see this in the next 2 hours, call me at 630-554-5885!!

Questions: I see from your posts you used the heads on a bottled vette... that's now apart in the middle of summer...

Why's it apart?

How old r the heads? ( miles & years)

Did you buy them assembled?

If not, what kind of valves, springs, etc?

Ever float the valves? overev? bad n2o ping?

Anything you'd suggest be done to them before running them?

tx, Jim

Anything you'd suggest be done to them before running them?

buy head gaskets.

Lets see i bought the heads bare, had ultratech racing engines set up all the valve guide clearance's, spring heights, etc. they have comp cams guide plates, 3/8 ARP studs... I'll call you.

JIM

you gave me a fax # ?

i'll be here till 5PM,
after that call me at home 574-255-1492. Were going to watch stock car racing tonight at 7.

I could meet you halfway tomorrow.

Imho, go the 264 Isky since you want a little more lowend b/c you mentioned it being a true street motor with P/G..

As for me, I would use the 272 if the motor is right at 10 to 1 CR. or a schosh under AND run the dog-s-- outta it!!

That's the cam that was in the .040" over 327 I gave my nephew and I went back with a NOS G-K cam that was almost identical to it..

pdq67

Well, I want it to Run, but I need to keep the midrange strong with the PG, since a lot of the 1/4 will be spent in the 3000-5000 range. With the advertised duration on the Isky being measured the way it is, that cam is likely more like 270 deg measured the crane way. I am just not sure if 108 LSA is good or bad with a 327. That thing should lope a bit on 108 centers, but idel quality is really of no concern to me. I just want something that will run the fastest with the driveline I am running.

BTW... current cam is a GK 254/264 w/ 200/210 @ 0.050" and .408/.430 on 112 LSA installed at 107 deg (per my measurements 12 years ago when I installed it). WIth the stock 210/235 hp heads, it runs real nice with a stock converter, but gives up around 4500, and by 5000, it is completely done. I want a little more power! smile.gif

PS... car ran 15.01 @ 92 this way with a stock converter, starving for fuel on the top end (kinked rubber line going into the pump). smile.gif

Sorry, Mike, that was indeed my work fax... I'll call you in the am, or my home # is 630-553-8826.

The wife has informed me I'm up to my #ss in honey do's, this could change. Wonder if it's gonna rain tomorrow, da ragtop needs a good run.

Ok, I met w/ Mike yesterday and picked up those Dart Iron Eagle 180 heads. They are RTR, and I'm thinkin I'll bolt em on today, and leave the rest of it for non-ragtop season. If nothing else, this will produce a pretty good baseline on what a simple head swap will do to a motor with a serious defiency in air flow.

Before-----------after
76cc-------------72cc-----chamber volume
.040-------------.020-----Head gasketthickness
8.2:1------------8.9:1----Comp ratio
1.74-------------2.02-----intake valve
1.4--------------1.6------exhaust valve
160 ish?---------225------intake port flow cfm

Question for the group?

I'm thinking about starting a new thread, detailing (with photo's) the head swap. Would this be a welcome how-to? Or something so many of us have done that it would be of little use?

noon: began "Krylon overhaul" (re: Paul) on iron eagles

12:45 Started ripping topend off motor
3:00 it's apart, off to autozone

I'd be interested in your project, Jim. I have it ahead of me but am waiting for winter down time.

got gaskets, picked up a performar rpm, too just for fun. Hour and a half scraping grasket crud off the top of the block... dinner...

6:15... Let the reassembly begin

Rick, I should be too... It will be coming apart again for a cam, and some long overdue underhood detailing...I just couldn't wait... between the small (1.74!!) valve heads and Torker II intake, the poor thing don't know whether it's coming or goin.

Midnight....Done, Fire it up, cool it runs. Adj the valves, put da cover back on, set the timing and idle...

12:15 TESTDRIVE!!!!

12:40 here and now... Can anyone say WOW!! How bout SHAZAM!!!

We done woke up this lil 327 but good... More torque off idle... way more at 2000... between 2 & 3k the power really comes on... and on and on.

Before, she was all in at 5500... felt like i was beatin a dog to rev it that high... First run, shift at 5800... damn she wants to fly... second run, 6200 through 3 gears, pulling strong. Third run, wind her up to 6400! And she wanted to jus keep pullin!!!

Mike, thanks a bunch for those eagles, they flat out rock. The prerformar rpm is helpin out too, I'm sure, and I goin to bed a happy happy camper. Night all!!

Glad to hear it is running good! What heads were on the motor before... Stock 1.72/1.50 210/327 heads? What cam are you using?

Yes, while it is a 327-275, once upon a time, someone put the 210 hp heads on it. Cam's unkown, didn't get that deep into it... Assume stock for 327-275... Stil got a smooth idle & 750 rpm.

Drove it to work today... Just can't get over how good this things running, it even sounds better!

Thats sweet man...I had a fun following this thread. Sounds like a kick ass little combo!
Congrats!

Congrats JimM,

Like you told Mike1978 earlier in this thread..."YOU'RE KILLIN ME MAN!..." You're lucky, Mike1978 offered those heads to me 1st before he offered them to you...I WAS VERY TEMPTED!

The only reason I didn't snap them up is because my front suspension is shot and I'm in need of a drum-to-disk brake upgrade first. Otherwise, I would have put them on my 327. Oh well, at least I got Mike1978's Weiand Stealth Intake... :D

BTW, anyone know the specs. on the stock 327/275hp cam? It's not like the -929 cam is it? just curious...

Again Congrats and good luck.

- Mark P.

[ 08-30-2004, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: Granny's 69 ]

The stock 275hp & 210hp cam was not like the '929', it WAS the '929'. smile.gif

'66 and down 327's (250/275/300 hp) used a cam that was a single pattern... something like 196/196 @ 0.050, .398/.398. From '67 on, all 275 hp and lower 327's had the '929', and the 325/327 used the '151'.

** double post **

That's great. I told you they made 325 RWHP om my car. Hey with all that energy you have i'll let you know when i get the new heads...


I'm glad they worked out for you. You might want to read a plug , now that it runs better it might need a tough more fuel ?

Also now that your at 8.9-1 your at the iron head limit for pump gas, i would run 93 in it. As for cam just as i recommended before comp cams 224-224 on 110 LSA will treat you well. Those heads flow 79% E/I so don't use a split lift cam.

OH last question...CAN YOU FINALLY SPIN THOS REARS ??

haha... After the abuse my clutch took the last time I tried, I have not tried again... Those Eagle F1's are way way sticky.

The way it's running, I just might be happy for a few years, leave it just how it is...

Ya, I filled it with midgrade this morning, and I'm getting a lil ping at part throttle, will back off the timing till I burn this tank, fill with 93 and retune.

As far as reading the plugs, HAHAHA, u funny... With the angle plugs the header have to COME OFF to get a socket on 5 of them!! They're recessed so deep in the heads I can't get an open and on em either... Had to beat the **** outa #1 tube to get that one to fit at all...Plug boot's still right on the header... hope it don't burn thru.

Autozone guy was way confused on plugs anyway... Told em I needed a Champion v59yc (from dart website) he got all confused not havin a model make and year... Started gettin snippy wit me, too. I finally told him to give me a set of Bosch Platimums for a 76 vette... They fit, not sure about the heat range tho. At that point I was just dyin to get it back on the road...

I just found out that Joliet raceway does what they call a "test n tune" on Tuesday nights. Pure run what u brung fun. I just might take it out there soon and get some time slips.

btw, after a noon to midnight sunday flog, I'm way tired and gotta sore back... virtual zombie at work today.

DO YOUR OWN HEADS!!
lmao, Jim

I should have given you the plugs i had. I was running an A/C delco r-44.

You can call Accell and have them reference the heat range of a r-44 to their header shorty plugs.


Since you have a rag top don't forget the helmet.

i ran 35 deg total timing on 93. 750vs 72 primary 76 secondary. You can make 3 size jet changes at the track and watch the MPH, the highest will be the most HP.

good luck and have fun.

Let us know what it runs.

one more thing to think about.

If the motor is lean it will cause detonation.

Also most factory cams were ground on a 114LSA or larger.

If you do swap to the cam i suggested you would bleed off a tough of comp and most likley be able to run the mid grade.

I'm running an edelbrock carb, and I hate it. (was on when i bought the car..)

Earlier in the summer, I swapped to richer metering rods to clear a part throttle hesitation, which is now back some but not bad. I have the richest rods in it, I'll swap primary mains and see what happens. If I take it to the strip, I'll set the timing conservation and leave it alone. Concentrate on not missing any gears and surviving the night (I will hafta drive it there, AND BACK!)

I'll look into the baby plugs.