I am looking at improving the suspension of my camaro and doing some research with rear sway bars. I like Hotchkis rear sway bar kit until I seen this item- http://www.hotchkis.net/19681969_camaro_firebird_rear_shock_tower_brace.ht ml Has anyone come across it and what is the enifit of it? I currently have Hotchkis' sport suspension 2 1/2 inch package with bilstin shocks, sub-frame connectors, and QA1 front coil overs. Am wanting to improve handling of my 68 with updated suspension, that help in daily handling.
Will this shock tower brace work on its own or is the sway bar kit needed? I also seen their handling bar kit- http://www.hotchkis.net/19671969_camaro_chassis_max_handle_bars.html So now I am at a cross road, for approx same amount the shock tower and front handle bar would be close in price as the sway bar kits and brace. what are your thoughts. Does anyone see any pros to this set up or a just go with the sway bar kit??:confused:

They dont mention the need and cost to re-align the front-end after you place the front support braces between the a arm and the frame mount! Addtl$ over a steep $550 cost.
As for the rear sway bar: causes way too much over steer in these cars, especially if you have improved the front geomentry: waste of $$$.
The rear brace: may be a good thing and its not alot of cash.
Their front sway bar, front springs and maybe their rear spring set (if high horse power) makes first gens handle really well. IMHO>

The front A frame mount bracing looks like another gimmick to make money to me. Just like the strut tower braces for fourth gen F-bodys, there nothing more than an appearance item.

I would say the same about the rear shock/floor brace.

If your looking to improve the handling of your car your better off spending that money on other components like springs, front sway bar etc. Im not knocking Hotchkis by no means, im running a Hotchkis package on my 69 and love it.

It all depends on what your wanting to acomplish with your car.

Joe Clance- am a little confused why would a rear sway bar mess up the front geometry and cause over steer?? I agree the with you and Jereniah the front brace may cost more than it is worth, however as for the rear shock tower may not be a bad ideal with my curent set up. I will need to look more into how the rear affects understeer- I hope the coil over springs can help with that?? I will call Hotchkis this week and get their thoughts also. Lastly the rear sway ideal, may not be the way to go- why the hype with having these sways bars in the rear, would traction bars be a better investment?? Thanks for your thoughts and look forward to more ideals about this.

Joe Clance- am a little confused why would a rear sway bar mess up the front geometry and cause over steer??

(If I can put words in Joe's mouth) -- he's not saying that the rear bar messes with the front geometry. He's saying that if you DO fix the front end geometry (Guildstrand mod or taller front spindles) than the rear bar isn't needed.

Sway bars are typically used to do 2 things -- to increase roll resistance (reduce body roll) AND to change the F/R balance of the car. Generally speaking, if you increase the roll resistance on one end of the car (without changing the other) the end with the increased roll resistance LOSES grip. So if you have a car that understeers (like most stock cars) and you add a stiffer rear bar, the rear end loses grip and the car becomes better balanced.

On a stock camaro, the front end geometry is a mess, which means the front end has pretty awful grip when pushed hard. Adding a stiffer rear sway bar basically makes the rear end slide as much as the front, which directionally balances the car out.

The other way to balance a car out is to INCREASE the grip up front -- which is exactly what improving the front geometry will do. Sooo, if you fix the front end geometry, the rear bar may be unnecessary OR may be too much (which would make the car tail happy).

In my opinion, the handle bar braces are probably a bit overkill unless you're going to really race the car (autoX, road race) and I wouldn't consider the rear shock tower brace unless you're running rear coilovers (if the area you're stiffening only has the shcok loads going through it and not the spring/wheel loads, why bother?).

In you're case, I'd definitely move to solid body bushings and either the guildstrand mod or tall spindles up front...

(If I can put words in Joe's mouth) -- he's not saying that the rear bar messes with the front geometry. He's saying that if you DO fix the front end geometry (Guildstrand mod or taller front spindles) than the rear bar isn't needed.

Sway bars are typically used to do 2 things -- to increase roll resistance (reduce body roll) AND to change the F/R balance of the car. Generally speaking, if you increase the roll resistance on one end of the car (without changing the other) the end with the increased roll resistance LOSES grip. So if you have a car that understeers (like most stock cars) and you add a stiffer rear bar, the rear end loses grip and the car becomes better balanced.

On a stock camaro, the front end geometry is a mess, which means the front end has pretty awful grip when pushed hard. Adding a stiffer rear sway bar basically makes the rear end slide as much as the front, which directionally balances the car out.

The other way to balance a car out is to INCREASE the grip up front -- which is exactly what improving the front geometry will do. Sooo, if you fix the front end geometry, the rear bar may be unnecessary OR may be too much (which would make the car tail happy).

In my opinion, the handle bar braces are probably a bit overkill unless you're going to really race the car (autoX, road race) and I wouldn't consider the rear shock tower brace unless you're running rear coilovers (if the area you're stiffening only has the shcok loads going through it and not the spring/wheel loads, why bother?).

In you're case, I'd definitely move to solid body bushings and either the guildstrand mod or tall spindles up front...

Perfect! and i didn't have to say a word!

I didnt think about the rear brace for coil overs.. good advise.

I still cant see the front brace doing any good other than being a good leaning post for working on the car. They should make them with magnetic strips to hold your tools lol.

I didnt think about the rear brace for coil overs.. good advise.

I still cant see the front brace doing any good other than being a good leaning post for working on the car. They should make them with magnetic strips to hold your tools lol.

That would be a expensive magnet I would think-LOL. T- thanks for the break down, it makes sense to me. My car is not being used in a rally race, just a cruiser I can live the dream in. I think with my coil over up front with a bigger sway bar already installed, then having the sub frame connectors welded in I will be fine. My rear end should be fine left alone, no need for the shock braces- no coil over syetem back there. You guys are the greatest thanks for the help! :thumbsup::beers:

I am confused, you said you have hotchkis springs and bilstien shocks, and qa1 coilovers?
So what are you running now and where?
What are your goals? Sounds like no racing (straight or with corners) for you?

Lots of these guys are bashing the rear bar, I would bet none of them have raced in a car with a matched set front and rear...
So, what happens when you improve the front geometry and add a large front bar? Sounds like someone is saying it would have less grip and slide out first...
They are designed as a set to work together.

Traction bars really aren't going to help you get around corners any faster...

Search this site and rear posts by everyone, and look at the number of posts they have and their signatures. David Pozzi posts on here often and is a very experienced racer.

I am confused, you said you have hotchkis springs and bilstien shocks, and qa1 coilovers?
So what are you running now and where?
What are your goals? Sounds like no racing (straight or with corners) for you?

Lots of these guys are bashing the rear bar, I would bet none of them have raced in a car with a matched set front and rear...
So, what happens when you improve the front geometry and add a large front bar? Sounds like someone is saying it would have less grip and slide out first...
They are designed as a set to work together.

Traction bars really aren't going to help you get around corners any faster...

Search this site and rear posts by everyone, and look at the number of posts they have and their signatures. David Pozzi posts on here often and is a very experienced racer.

I don't think it's about bashing the rear sway bar, the 1st gen just doesn't typically benefit from one unless it has really big big rear tires and a highly modified front suspension. Dave Pozzi is where most have gotten the information they are sharing here.

Reality is you build for balance and don't just bolt on every performance part available and have the best handling car.

The more you improve the front, the more you need a rear bar. Guldstrand mod incrreases front traction in cornering, it also raises the front roll center which increases front roll stiffness. These two factors increase the need to balance the car with a rear bar.

Front to rear weight, tire size differences, suspension binding, frame flex all are variables that change what you may need, but in general a matched set of front and rear bars are necessary on a first gen Camaro IF you use a good sized front bar, meaning a 1" solid or 1 1/8" hollow bar.

Some of my earlier comments on rear bars were directed at the old Addco kits which had a tiny rear bar with very long arms. This bar really didn't make a significant difference in handling. F/R bar kits from Hotchkis, current Addco, Hellwig, etc, work best in pairs.
David

I am confused, you said you have hotchkis springs and bilstien shocks, and qa1 coilovers?
So what are you running now and where?
What are your goals? Sounds like no racing (straight or with corners) for you?

Lots of these guys are bashing the rear bar, I would bet none of them have raced in a car with a matched set front and rear...
So, what happens when you improve the front geometry and add a large front bar? Sounds like someone is saying it would have less grip and slide out first...
They are designed as a set to work together.

Traction bars really aren't going to help you get around corners any faster...

Search this site and rear posts by everyone, and look at the number of posts they have and their signatures. David Pozzi posts on here often and is a very experienced racer.

I have QA1 coil overs on the front, Hotchks sport suspension with Bilstin shocks rear, Hotchkis sub frame connector. I don't plan on racing the car, but wouldn't mind taken it to a test on tune night to see what it can do.
My original plans for the car was to improve its handling, I wanted to get away from the car that goes straight. That is how I ended up where I am at now. I like the ideal of cruising being able to hit a curvey road and not roll from the drive to pass door. Again I would like to take the car on a road course to see how it handles also.

Dave you have a great amount of knowledge and insight, from your read I think taken a stock suspension with reasonable upgrades would be my course of action. I did upgrade the stock front sway bar to a Global performance bar and all poly bushings addtionally to the above items changed. I know this won't be a Corner Carving Vette suspnsion, just woud like a upgrade from the 60's.
Thanks for the help guys!!:D

This is great help and very intersting learning for me.:thumbsup:

Poly bushings on the A arms tend to stiffen the front, acting like stiffer coils.
What is the spring rate on the front springs? 450?

You might get the car together and running, then drive it and see if you get understeer. If you do, then an adjustable rear bar would be a nice addition.
Hotchkis, & Hellwig make adjustable rear bars that would allow you to tune handling balance.
Global West does not make or recommend a rear bar, but I'm not sure how they get enough rear roll resistance to balance the handling. They do make solid front leaf bushings that could do it, but I feel they are too harsh for a street use.

I took a stock 68 Camaro, put 6308 Moog coils on it, Hellwig bars, and it's pretty nicely balanced. No guldstrand mod, no tubular upper arms, same size tires front and rear. I think the rear 3/4" bar adds around 600 lbs in roll and it surely would be missed if it weren't on the car.

I have read one or two posts where guys removed rear bars and the handling was better, I don't understand why, but it has happened.
David

Thanks Dave The coils are the 450 for a Big Block, and I wll have to the weather is nicer to play with the steering- snow is not fun to play in. I will keep you posted and many thanks forthe advice. Joe

Joe, cornering power is achieved almost exclusively with MATCHED sway barS. That means two. Never mismatch. You and your car could die.
Springs allow your tires to move with road bumps and shocks control that movement. Front end alignment controls your directional commands, AKA steering.
Sway bars flatten the car in corners and let you go really really fast.
Think of it this way: Car has engine in front, over the tires. Those tires are loaded by the weight of the engine and have more work to do than the rear unless the car is balanced like a vette. That's why most front engine cars under steer. The front tires have to do way more than the rear. Adding a stronger front sway bar helps with body lean and stability but also loads the front tires more. To balance the car, add a matched rear bar. Stiffer for both bars is better, to a point. When the inside front wheel lifts in a hard corner and stays that way in the turn, that's called "getting a leg up". Probably not good, but it sure looks neat.:yes:
Remember, stiffer springs would keep the body from rolling if the spring was only on the outside corner of the car. Instead, the spring on the inside corner is then pushing the body UP. That cancels the roll stiffness of the higher rate springs. Sway bars stop the roll and make the inside tire work harder until it lifts. (that's why 'getting a leg up' isn't a good idea') As far as shocks, Hold one in your hand with the shaft extended. Now push the shaft into the body. (half way is good enough) Now let go. It sits there. That can't do anything for roll resistance and thusly cornering power. Don't mistake dampeners (that's what shocks really are) with anti roll cornering power. Only sway bars let you go really fast.
Get Addco's book. It used to be free. They explain better than me. I've run a matched set of heavy duty Addco bars since 1969. They just sent a new rear bar to me for free because they couldn't supply bushings for their old stuff and they have a lifetime warranty.
Now understand one thing about my setup. I don't know if my car under or over steers. It goes so fast in corners that I can't violate laws that much to find out without going to prison. And I leave them on for drag racing. Great for turning onto the return road.
As far as those front and rear braces, don't even think about it. :sad:
Old;
http://epitomesrebuild.com/images/141.JPG
New;
http://epitomesrebuild.com/images/145.JPG

Snow? If it snowed here, it would be front page news! :noway:

Snow? If it snowed here, it would be front page news! :noway:

Central california? I live just over the hills in the bay area, and we got snow just last week, only an inch but more than I have ever seen here...

Aw come on. That's impossible with global warming.:)

I used the Hotckis rear shock tower bar on my car, and just by the seat of the pants driving at SCCA solo I didn't feel any difference in the handling characteristics, before and after, then I added the frame handle bars and the car had alot turn in I had to dial a little out by adding camber to make the car less twitchy heres what I am running
Hotchkis 2" Lowering Front coils
Hotchkis 1.5" Lowering Rear Leafs
Hotchkis 1-1/8" DIA, Hollow Sway bar (front)
Hotchkis Machined Tie Rod Sleeves
Hotchkis Sub Frame Connectors
Hotchkis Rear Shock Tower Brace
Hotchkis Chassis Max Handle Bars
Complete welding of all seams on the factory sub-frame (for strength) and then
Glass shot peened to reduce torsional chassis stresses (Peen-Rite)
Global West aluminum body mounts and stainless sub frame bolts
Global West 6 degree positive caster Tube Upper Control Arms
Ceramic Painted stock lower Arms with (Prothane bushings)
KYB Gr-2 shocks front and rear
AGR 12.7:1 gear ratio Billet power steering box
hope it helps

If your going to do that you may as well just relocate the rear shocks, you can make it yourself and probably costs less, and works better........

Monkey, that sounds more extreme than what I am looking for, but good news about the shock brace, not much difference. From all this GREAT advice i will need to answer some pertainant questions- do I have over under steer, and are the colis springs adjusted right. From there I can plan/decide which route to upgrad, if any will be needed. I really got alot from this thread and please if there are any more suggestions I am all eyes. This is what makes restoring/building old school cars fun!! Thanks Joe

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=148264