Ok, I am sorta new to engines and such only being a young age (prob one of the youngest at this site). Anyways, I would love to build this engine one day for a '69 camaro with 3.73's, 12-bolt, mini-tubbed rear stuffing 335's, dual 3" x-pipe. It will look something along the lines of this http://www.detroitspeed.com/Images/AndersTwister48.jpg. I want a serious motor here, so no skimping. This will be mostly street driven, possibly seeing very minor track time.

World Products 350 4-bolt bored .30 over.
AFR 195's ported and polished, etc. w/ spring and valve upgrades. Not sure what cpr. to use at the moment. I want it to run on pump gas, so i'm thiking around 10:1-10.5:1 cpr.?
Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap ported and such.
Hooker Super-Comp 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 w/ Jet-Hot coating.
All lightweight, forged internals (not sure what parts yet).
Speed Demon 650 or Holley Street Avenger 670. Possibly bigger?
Comp Pro Magnum roller rockers 1.52-1.6.
What kind of oiling system should I use? I have heard dry sump was best for hp/tq, but not sure.
Now for the cam, I don't know much about cams, still trying to learn the basics. Higher lift = more power higher rpm, closer LSA = nicer idle, etc. What would be a good cam for this engine? It will be 95% street driven. I would appreciate any and all feedback. Am I missing anything at all that would be of importance to this engine? Thanks guys.

P.S. Sorry I haven't been posting and stuff lately, I have been too busy with having surgery, tests and such:( But I have been reading up on all the info I can find smile.gif . Thanks again.

Get yourself a Jegs and Summit catalog and price it all out in USD - then divide by the exchange rate (ie: $4500 / .66 = $6818) and add any extra shipping charges for shipping your stuff to Canada. You are probably looking at roughly $7500 CDN to build your motor.

Just don't forget the little stuff like tin, gaskets, bolts, water pump, starter, etc. It can really add up quick.

Good luck.

Does it sound like a good combo though?? What do you think? Anything you don't like or would want changed? Thx.

Errrr sorry, that link doesn't work. Well anyways, I want it to look very similar to the detroit speed twister camaro.

It's that time of the month for the link you posted CHR!! Get rid of the period and it works fine...

http://www.detroitspeed.com/Images/AndersTwister48.jpg

My bottom end...
-Block, billet main caps and machine work $950
-4340 Eagle Crank {got cheap on special} $475 delivered to my door
-H beam Eagle Rods $330
-Pistons/RIngs $500
-Bearings $100
-Main stud kit $100
-Bottom end rough total :$2455 But its virtually indestructable
Your top end
-AFR heads competition ported 2000 complete
-Intake $2-300
-Carb $500
-Headers $300
-Cam/lifters/pushrods/ pro magnum rockers $500 or so
-Timing set $50
-oils/EOS/cam lube $45
-valve covers/timing cover/air cleaner etc, $100
-7qt pan/ pump, pickup/ steel pump drive $225?
-MSD box, distributer, Coil wires $600?
-the knowledge on how to put it all together and make it work without blowing it up....priceless
Sorry i had to
Not trying to ruin your day but the bright side to this is alot of the times you can find good used parts through friends, ebay, and swap meets and if your not going to race you could back off some of the super high dollar parts and go for some used sportsman II heads, and a swap meet victor Jr intake instead of AFR's and a new dart intake...ya know. Have fun and good luck

Originally posted by Canadian_Hot_Rodder:


World Products 350 4-bolt bored .30 over.

> Don't waste your money on an aftermarket block at this power level. Either find a good used core at the boneyard or GM still makes the HD 350 casting for about $600 USD

AFR 195's ported and polished, etc. w/ spring and valve upgrades.

> Forget the ported and polished bit - the AFR's flow very good right out of the box. The P & P thing is for guys to brag about at the ice cream shop ;)

Not sure what cpr. to use at the moment. I want it to run on pump gas, so i'm thiking around 10:1-10.5:1 cpr.?

> Right on - 10.0-10.5:1 is perfect for a medium cam and pump gas. A flat top piston and 64cc combustion chamber (on the heads) will get you there.

Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap ported and such.

Doesn't really need to be ported, good choice for a manifold.

Hooker Super-Comp 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 w/ Jet-Hot coating.

> The best thing to do is to get them without the coating, strip off the paint, and have them coated locally. The Hooker coating doesn't seem to last much longer than the paint. Depending on what cam and RPM band you want you could probably go with either tube diameter.

All lightweight, forged internals (not sure what parts yet).

> Just get a good aftermarket cast crank and a good I-beam rod. If on a budget you could even use the stock crank and rods - just get good ARP rod bolts. The forged stuff just runs the price up and isn't really needed unless you really want to spin it high or run lots of N2O. I WOULD run forged pistons though. A simple flat top Speed Pro would do the trick.

Speed Demon 650 or Holley Street Avenger 670. Possibly bigger?

> 650 - 700 cfm would be about right. I am preferential to the Speed Demons. Mechanical secondary for max performance, vac secondary for a daily driver (or if mileage is any concern). I think a vac secondary would fit your needs best (95% street driven) and IMO the double pumper only has about 1/10 sec advantage at the track.

Comp Pro Magnum roller rockers 1.52-1.6.

> Depends on the cam, but there are less expensive roller rockers that will get the job done - the Crane Energizers have served me well. Comp roller tips are also very good for the $125 they cost. Even aftermarket stamped rockers are much better than the stockers (Crane about $75)

What kind of oiling system should I use? I have heard dry sump was best for hp/tq, but not sure.

> Just use a simple factory wet sump system. Dry sump is WAY overkill and not practical for the street. A standard volume pump with a high pressure spring is all you need for pressure - a good oil pan with a windage tray and scraper will help build some extra power without breaking the bank.

Now for the cam, I don't know much about cams, still trying to learn the basics. Higher lift = more power higher rpm, closer LSA = nicer idle, etc. What would be a good cam for this engine?

> There are a million different possibilities, but for a daily street driven engine with the heads and compression you mentioned I would look at the Comp 280H or the Isky 280 Megacam. Both would give you a 2500 - 6000 RPM power band and an idle of about 750 RPM with a nice lope. The Isky would be just a hair more radical with slightly more midrange TQ.

It will be 95% street driven. I would appreciate any and all feedback. Am I missing anything at all that would be of importance to this engine? Thanks guys.

> Make sure you get a distributor with a vacuum advance on it. This helps mileage A LOT without sacrificing any power. A good ignition curve will help make good power too.

If you follow the advice above you should be able to have a fairly inexpensive street screamer that should run 12's at the track. The fancy parts won't help you go any faster, a solid combination will. This combo should break the 400 HP mark pretty easily, maybe significantly more if you pay attention to the details when building it.

Good luck

As already stated by Novaguy if you buy a good $300/$500 or so core motor out of a truck that has a forged crank in it that is running. Then use the short block with a bore job, new hi-po pistons, rebuilt rods and a balance job. Then add the heads you want along with an intake and exhaust system AND the cam and stuff, you should be able to, if you do the assembling yourself, save a bunch of money.

BOY, is that a long paragraph..... Sorry....

And all that needs to be done to the block is add a set of main studs if it is a two bolt main block to strengthen it and then spin the crank as you install it to check if you need main honing or not!! I really doubt if you will but I always check as I install mine.

I like using running core motors b/c all the little stuff is there which makes life a whole lot easier putting her back together... Just mix and match the hi-po stuff to make what you want....

Heck, maybe you can pick up a rusted out running junker for like the money stated or even for hauling it off???

pdq67

Originally posted by Canadian_Hot_Rodder:
Comp Pro Magnum roller rockers 1.52-1.6.
What kind of oiling system should I use? I have heard dry sump was best for hp/tq, but not sure.
Now for the cam, I don't know much about cams, still trying to learn the basics. Higher lift = more power higher rpm, closer LSA = nicer idle, etc. What would be a good cam for this engine? It will be 95% street driven. I would appreciate any and all feedback. Am I missing anything at all that would be of importance to this engine? Thanks guys. CHR;

Just a word about cams -
A "closer" or smaller LSA will usually give a car a worse or rougher idle - unless you meant 'nicer' to mean a rough idle.
Here are some guidlines for conditions LSA can effect;

Condition: Wide LSA - Narrow LSA
Overlap= Decreased - Increased
Low End Power= Higher - Lower
High End Power= Lower - Higher
Detonation Potential= Lower - Higher
Intake Events= Later - Earlier
Exhaust Events= Earlier - Later
and
Manifold Vacuum= Higher - Lower

LSA is the Lobe Separation Angle or the number of degrees between the intake and exhaust lobe centerlines. The LSA has a direct relationship to amount of overlap on a cam. Cams with identical duration and lift specifications can have very different LSAs. Generally speaking, a wide LSA will produce greater low end torque and a narrow separation angle will produce better top end power. For any given LSA, an engine will give similar torque curves and peak torque RPMs even with different overlaps. Refer to the LSA table above to determine how an increase or decrease in LSA is expected to change the performance of the engine.
I would recommend you keep the LSA on the conservative side for a mostly street driven vehicle.

If you are considering Comp rockers why not call their excellent tech line and get recommendations for cams for your engine. I use them alot and they always give me good info.

As others have stated - for this type of engine build a stock type block will be fine. Spend your money in other areas.
I would recommend you stay with a near stock SBC oiling sytem - dry sumping cures some problems and raises a few more - it does not save any horsepower in a normal street engine.

I would normally expect an engine of the type you are discribing to run in the $5,000~7,000 range in the US.

Hope some of this helps.

Lol, guess I was wrong with my knowledge about lsa. Ty for clearing that up Vintage68. And Eric68 ty for helping me decide on some parts. No dry sump for me! The reason I brought all this up is because I was looking through my November 2002 issue of Chevy Rumble and saw what I think is my dream n/a engine. It has basically the same parts as I posted, but it made 530 hp/495 tq!!! That is what I want!

If you want 530 HP go for more cubes! A small block 400 would be a good start. It gets to be a challenge (and more expensive) to get 500+ HP out of a naturally aspirated pump gas small block. In reality, you might want to tone down the power for your first build --- 400+ HP is an aweful lot of fun :D

Heh, i'll be sure to keep that in mind eric68 smile.gif

Or come over to the "Dark Side" and go for a BB like a 496!!! He, He!!

You 500+ hp power goals will be easy to obtain... 650hp isn't all that hard either..

pdq67

Nah, bb's just don't appeal to me much. I want to build a g-machine so bb wouldn't help the handling smile.gif

Then check out RickWI and his 454 all aluminum SB/6 speed either here, on Team Chevelle or SGCOG.

I figure to why spend that much money for a SB that really is trying to be a BB, but I am very happy Rick has what he has!!

pdq67

PS., as for a G-Machine, I figure power drifts WILL make up for a lot of nose heaviness just like it did whenever my car was set up soo stiff it skipped sideways taking a 90 degree corner at 45 mph back when I was young and stupid and didn't know any better!!

Ooooooh, how I love big cubed small blocks. I just LOVE them! I dunno, we'll see what happens in the near future smile.gif

ohhh PDQ im really gonna stir it now. Probably because that 454 small block that your saying is trying to be a big block is making way more hp and way more torque than ANY BB crate motor THAT SIZE, and really most BB crate motors, and with a comparably small cam. Its cheaper than most BB crate motors, And to top it off its probably 200 lbs lighter. Thats why.....chalk one up for the small blocks. Id like to see what that 454 SB would do if you actually put a cam in it and ran some heads to keep up with the cubic inch {you can run a 220cc runner on a stout 350 for crying out loud} Id be willing to bet 700-800 hp is easily acheiveable in street form, then think if you dropped compression a bit and supercharged it. Man you could have a 9 second daily driver if everything played out and if you had a deep wallet. I wonder if anyone has made such an animal??? ANybody have some examples? Im curious

He, He!!

The great debate is which one is better for what the buyer wants to spend the cash for vs all out power production!!

I loved the way my junk 301 would go up to above 7,000rpm's eay so don't try to say that I am pro-BB!!

As for the little 283, why heck, I beat many a motors that thought the "Little Engine That Could, Couldn't", so go figure!!

BTW, if you want a SB motor that "Ultimately" will be cubic inches challlaged as for max. power output so be it, which is fine for me!!

But as stated MANY, MANY time's , there really isn't any replacement for cubic inches except for "CUBIC DOLLARS", b/c when the quest for max. power goes down, the biggest motor win's , HANDS DOWN!!

And this holds true for "poke it, stroke it AND blow it and if that isn't enough, gas it"!!!!

pdq67

Novaguy, while I LOVE small blocks like you I have to say that if you are looking for brute power on the cheap a BBC is the way to go. One of the rags (Hot Rod maybe or was it car craft?) did a 454 crate engine buildup where they stuck a set of AFR heads and a blower on a plain old 454 crate engine to get 950 HP. Try that with a small block . . . ain't gonna happen for the chump change they had into the BBC.

There are a couple reasons why I think 454 BBC beats a 454 SBC.

1st - stock splayed valve heads on the BBC just plain beat the crap out of 23* SBC castings, especially stock heads. Now there are some very good aftermarket heads that may put the SBC on level playing field with a stock BBC but then there are aftermarket BBC heads too!!

2nd - rod-stroke ratios and mere internal strength give the BBC a durability advantage IMO. Yes you can go with the aftermarket SBC block, forged lightweight crank, rods, etc in an SBC but the cost factor really comes into play.

The only real advantage IMO the SBC has over the BBC is the weight. Internal (reciprocating assembly) weight is much less in an SBC allowing it to rev fast --- until you start throwing big stroke cranks (like 4.00") into the SBC. And of course overall weight of an SBC with aluminum heads, intake, w/p, headers is close to that of the good 'ole I-6 250 under my workbench.

and I'm not knocking small blocks . . . they're awesome little motors :D

ps. and yes, I'd LOVE to drop a set of AFR215 raised runner heads onto a street destined 427 SBC. With 315cfm flow and a small runner I bet the little SBC stroker would suprise an aweful lot of BBC street combo's with a tiny little roller cam!

I just wish we could get dyno tests using the same SB shortblock, intake system type, timing and headers, but switch heads from standard 23 angle hi-po to 18 degree to Buick 10 degree to "mini BB, splayed valved" to finally SB2.2 heads!! Just use flat-top pistons to level the playing field sorta thing too......

B/c I have a feeling except for the prices being sooo high using the off-beat heads, there IS power to be had if you want to work for it!!!

pdq67

PS., Oh, almost forgot, the new stock, ZL-1 Aluminum BB block is available now to save weight, BUT it too is pricey, to say the least!!!