2004r vs 700r4 [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: 2004r vs 700r4


67/68rs
Feb 28th, 10, 08:53 AM
Goin nuts trying to figure out best way to go. 67rs got a 450 hp 350 and strong 10 bolt with 3:73 gears. Getting mixed reviews between 2004r and 700r4. I like the idea of the overdrive but cant figure out wich is the stronger choice. Need help.

DOUG G
Feb 28th, 10, 09:14 AM
If I remember what I've read.... the 200R is, or can be built better than the 700R can be.

HarleyD67
Feb 28th, 10, 09:22 AM
The 200 has a better gear ratio pattern than the 700. The 200 is similar to the TH350/TH400, where the 700 has a big drop from first to second gear. And they can both be built stronger than you will ever need with that combo. A stock 700 would survive behind that motor, but it would be at it's limits. Same with a stock 200. The 200 is also an easier bolt in. (same drive shaft, and a modified 400 cross-member)

DT
Feb 28th, 10, 09:44 AM
IMO the 200r4 would be the weak link. Not nearly as strong as the 700r4. The new 700r4's are now the 4L60 and 4L80's. 4L80 is Heavy Duty. Don't take our word for it, call some HP transmission shops, they have expert advice.

rlyfst1
Feb 28th, 10, 09:46 AM
The 2004r gears are more evenly spaced, but the low 1st gear in the 700r4 can be a hoot for a rolling burnout. And yes, the 700r4 can be built up to withstand a lot of power.

67/68rs
Feb 28th, 10, 10:12 AM
I have heard the 700r has the better first gear and maybe the better overdrive as well, and from what ive been told with the 450hp i would be looking at a level 3 build, so it sound like both would be pretty strong, it just a matter of what gear ratios I prefer. Is that right?

Eric Kammerer
Feb 28th, 10, 10:14 AM
If you plug "700R4" into the search here, there are a number of threads that discuss both the 700 and 200. What I recall off the top of my head is that there are many more high performance replacements for the "hard" parts in a 200-4R vs. the 700R4.

Oh, and welcome to TC! Lots of info here for the searching.

Threads like this: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=158927&highlight=700R4

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=153291&highlight=700R4

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=151472&highlight=700R4

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=145709&highlight=700R4

67Kevin
Feb 28th, 10, 10:17 AM
I ended up going with a 200R4 for some of those same reasons. I have an Art Carr Extreme series 200R4 behind a BB stroker. You only get want you pay for. But I would bet a mildly modified 200 (better clutches) would hold up well with your combo, especially if running a small street tire. Smoke don't break parts! I didn't need or want a 3.06 first gear it would of been too low for my motor. The 200 has a 2.74 and trust me thats plenty low enough with my 3.70 rear. Also the overdrive on the 200R4 (.67) is a little better than that of the 700R4 (.70). With a 27" tire and the converter locked up (which I would highly recommend) it's turning 2200 RPM at 70MPH. The TV cable must be adjusted correctly (not as hard as some people make it out to be). I did purchase a carb linkage ratio correcter. More important is converter selection. Stall speed will make or break your performance gians. I would talk to a trans expert giving the complete combo and your driving intent. I went with a 2600 stall on my street car but again behind my 540 with 690 ft lbs it flashes to 3400! You can get alot of information on the 200R4 at Buick Grand National sites. They beat the crap out of their 200R4,s.
Hope this helps you decide.

67/68rs
Feb 28th, 10, 10:18 AM
Thanks Eric. Im real happy to have found this site.

67/68rs
Feb 28th, 10, 10:24 AM
Ya Kevin. I spoke to Art, and he swears by those 200r, but it depends who you talk to. Im running a th350 with a 3000 stall right now and definetly to high. Thinking of going to a 2500 stall.

shonuff
Feb 28th, 10, 10:26 AM
The 200 has a better gear ratio pattern than the 700. The 200 is similar to the TH350/TH400, where the 700 has a big drop from first to second gear. And they can both be built stronger than you will ever need with that combo. A stock 700 would survive behind that motor, but it would be at it's limits. Same with a stock 200. The 200 is also an easier bolt in. (same drive shaft, and a modified 400 cross-member)

Correction, the 200r4 is not the same as a TH400 or same driveshaft link.
It shares the same drive shaft length with the TH350...... The 200r4 and TH350 are one of the few tranny swaps you can make that pretty much all that is nec is to slide the crossmember back a few, and find a way to run the coolant lines......

The 700r4 and 4l60e are pretty much the same
700r4 detent
4l60e elec

both are still weak in there stock form ........ rating of 365lbTQ max
go to ls1 tech, ls1truck, ls1gto, and ask those guys how many times they have had to rebuild their 4l60E's?

Now the ones that are hard to find and a little better 4l65E and 4l70E, they come stock with some of the added goodies.........


Put the 200r4 in and forget about it, your not going to be driving around on the street at the 450HP level at 6000 rpms all the time ........ think real world. Plus its not about the horsepower that tears up these tranny's, its the torque......:beers:

69Project
Feb 28th, 10, 10:34 AM
Any early 700 will probably die an early death unless you have it rebuilt. Get one of the last years built 92-93 and try and get one out of Corvette if you want the 700. After 93/94 they were called 4L60's and they were controlled electronically. You can go that route just realize you will need a controller. If you are going to get one rebuilt make sure it has all the upgrades such new servo's etc. That will allow you to put it behind your engine and live. If you get a stock rebuild, don't expect it to live long.

The 200R's can be made to a good transmission. I would get one from a Buick GN and then get an adapter plate to bolt to your SBC. If you get a stock one from say a Monte Carlo don't expect it to live.

Both of these trans will need a performance rebuild to do what you want.

Folks are right, there is a greater drop in ratios between 1-2 on a 700r than a 200r. If you want a trans that was pretty much bullet proof stock, then a 4L80E is the way to go. However, you will need a controller for it, you may need to massage your tunnel a bit, and the over drive is only .85 as compared to the .7 on the 700r and 200r (the over drive ratio maybe different on a 200r).

The trans that will require the least amount of mods is probably the 200r because it's roughly the same length as turbo 350, I believe, so you won't have to cut your drive shaft. The other two will require it to most likely be cut.

There a bunch of vendors out there that sell these things already to mount in the car. That is probably the best route to go, albeit expensive, unless you know a good transmission guy who can rebuild a junk yard special for you.

zlek131
Feb 28th, 10, 11:15 AM
I have a 700R4 with 3.73 rear end. Stump puller but at the same time very "short" first gear as the 700's 3.06 first gear is way up there. Mine is stage-3 rated up to 700 HP but my engine builder that's building my motor keeps telling me that his engine will spit that transmission out in no time. At the same time the tranny builder says bring it on. :boxing: I think both are good transmissions. The place I got mine from only offers stage-2 200r4 while all the way up to stage-3 on the 700r4 if that means anything. Some good threads on here that will argue either way. Regardless, no matter which way you go, make sure you set that famous TV cable correctly. Make sure you get all the hardware to make the carburetor/TV cable geometry correct. If you don't get that part correct, you'll not enjoy either transmission.

shonuff
Feb 28th, 10, 11:38 AM
I have a 700R4 with 3.73 rear end. Stump puller but at the same time very "short" first gear as the 700's 3.06 first gear is way up there. Mine is stage-3 rated up to 700 HP but my engine builder that's building my motor keeps telling me that his engine will spit that transmission out in no time. At the same time the tranny builder says bring it on. :boxing: I think both are good transmissions. The place I got mine from only offers stage-2 200r4 while all the way up to stage-3 on the 700r4 if that means anything. Some good threads on here that will argue either way. Regardless, no matter which way you go, make sure you set that famous TV cable correctly. Make sure you get all the hardware to make the carburetor/TV cable geometry correct. If you don't get that part correct, you'll not enjoy either transmission.

Trust me, if your 700r4 was well built, it will be able to handle . Look at your uncorrected numbers(what your motor is actually putting out in Colorado) on your dyno and not corrected for sea levels what it would put out somewhere else. There are guys running with a motor like yours from the same builder running 200r4's, from Transdepot, almost stock and neither one of those motors tore up their 200r4's ........ You'll be fine

chevguy65
Feb 28th, 10, 12:03 PM
For street the 700 or 200 are fine.
Having had a 700r in my 65 I would NOT use it for drag racing. They are not made to race. 1st gear is to steep and does not let the converter do its job.
Then you have the big split between 1st and 2nd gear that drops you out of the powerband.
Also the tv cable can keep your carb from opening up to wot.

If you do go to the races with it, just don't expect it to put you into the numbers the engine is capable of.

For 450 hp on the street I would go with whatever is less expensive. Add a corvette servo, heavy duty clutch bands, hardened input shaft and a stage one shift kit.

67/68rs
Feb 28th, 10, 01:16 PM
Man, you guys have given me some great info to think about. Definetly diggin on this site and glad i joined.:hurray: Thanks, and got to say I might be leaning towards the 200r. Ill be talkin to my trans guy tomorrow and let you guys know how it turns out. :thumbsup:

idoxlr8
Feb 28th, 10, 01:16 PM
Here is another link on this conversation.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=160052&highlight=idoxlr8

HarleyD67
Feb 28th, 10, 02:07 PM
Correction, the 200r4 is not the same as a TH400 or same driveshaft link.It shares the same drive shaft length with the TH350...... The 200r4 and TH350 are one of the few tranny swaps you can make that pretty much all that is nec is to slide the crossmember back a few, and find a way to run the coolant lines......

The 700r4 and 4l60e are pretty much the same
700r4 detent
4l60e elec

both are still weak in there stock form ........ rating of 365lbTQ max
go to ls1 tech, ls1truck, ls1gto, and ask those guys how many times they have had to rebuild their 4l60E's?

Now the ones that are hard to find and a little better 4l65E and 4l70E, they come stock with some of the added goodies.........


Put the 200r4 in and forget about it, your not going to be driving around on the street at the 450HP level at 6000 rpms all the time ........ think real world. Plus its not about the horsepower that tears up these tranny's, its the torque......:beers:
Correction, the 200r4 is not the same as a TH400 or same driveshaft link.
Never said it was. He has a TH350 now not a 400 so HIS drive-shaft will swap.

The 200r4 and TH350 are one of the few tranny swaps you can make that pretty much all that is nec is to slide the crossmember back a few, and find a way to run the coolant lines......
It takes more to modify the TH350/powerglide cross member than it does to use the 400 one and move the trans-mount tab over 1/2". It's also lighter and allows easier access to drop the trans pan for service than using the powerglide crass-member. And with just a little tweaking his stock lines can mate up to the 2004R as well.

Car nut
Feb 28th, 10, 03:20 PM
Art Carr 200R4 works well for me.

zlek131
Feb 28th, 10, 03:51 PM
Trust me, if your 700r4 was well built, it will be able to handle . Look at your uncorrected numbers(what your motor is actually putting out in Colorado) on your dyno and not corrected for sea levels what it would put out somewhere else. There are guys running with a motor like yours from the same builder running 200r4's, from Transdepot, almost stock and neither one of those motors tore up their 200r4's ........ You'll be fine

I got my fingers crossed that you're right. :yes: I say that because I've had some issues with the tranny behind my 454. Also have some friends that for whatever reason hate the 700. I finally found a trans shop with a dyno. Had the 700 dynoed (with the new governor I put in) and it ran fine. Picking it up next week...

zlek131
Feb 28th, 10, 04:15 PM
...Also the tv cable can keep your carb from opening up to wot.

So true, but there is finally a solution for that if anyone is interested. Monster Transmission, makes a spring extension that mounts to the end of the TV cable allowing the carburetor to achieve its WOT even though the TV is fully expanded. I thought I was the only guy with "my TV cable travel is too short" until this little gadget. I'll take a picture once I get my tanny back, as it can easily be reproduced.

TJS69
Mar 1st, 10, 10:02 AM
There are a lot of Misconceptions, about the 2004r transmission out there.
A STOCK 2004r is not as strong as a STOCK 700r4. A 2004r can be made to be stronger, but it will cost you. If you are talking about a 400 HP engine, I would rather have the beefier stock parts of a 700r4. If you are talking about a 600 hp engine, then I would rather have the beefier AFTERMARKET parts that can be put in a 2004r. I made this chart about a year ago, so prices may have changed. It shows about what the various HP levels will cost you. Two notes to keep in mind are : 1) The low 1st gear of the 700r4 will be loved by people with high rear end gears (Ex. 3.08:1). This low 1st gear will also be hated by those with low rear end gears. (Ex.4.56:1). I have 4.11:1 rear gears and it makes 1st gear quite short, but I can live with it. 2) The "Real" Art Carr transmissions are from CPT - California Performance Transmissions. The other is just the name, which his ex-wife uses.

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii152/tjs69_photos/Transmission%20ID/transcomparo.jpg

shonuff
Mar 1st, 10, 09:08 PM
Yeah, I find it funny that these companies market with a concentration on HP, but like I said before, it torque that will tear a tranny up..... not nec HP...........

Remember HP is a derivitive of torque..... When I talk or have spoken to these companies, I asked them what torque level can these trannies handle...... HP is sexy but torque is the truth.......

BPOS
Mar 1st, 10, 10:48 PM
HP is sexy but torque is the truth.......

Shonuff!

ace's68
Mar 1st, 10, 11:23 PM
my .02 is, I HATE the first gear drop off of the 700r4.
It pulls hard through first even with a whimpy v8 and rev's very quickly, but it's short lived, second gear makes the vehicle seem very gutless. It's a great trans, haven't had any problems, but know a few people who have ruined them.
Pulling heavy loads with these things will eat them up very quickly.
Never tow in od, you probably won't be, just throwing that out there.
The 2 I've seen that were destroyed were pulling heavy loads, trans was not taken out of od.