Here is the article
http://www.airflowresearch.com/articles/article085/A-P1.htm

Is there a better cam for this combo now a days that will result in better numbers?
I would like to do the same combo but add a 150 shot. I would think that adding 1.6 rockers on exhaust side will allow more lift for the nitrous and getting a closer lobe center which would be better for the nitrous as well.


383 short block
195cc AFR
Forged Probe Pistons -4cc
Comp Cam 294S Solid
750 puddle dumper

Thoughts ?

well i plugged the numbers in to Desktop Dyno and came up with:
530 HP at 6500 rpm
477 TQ at 5000 rpm

With a different cam that i was interested in prior
Comp Cam
HYD Roller
2400 - 6500
12-419-8
NX288HR
236 dur.
248 dur.
0.520 intake
0.540 exhaust
113°lobe

570 HP at 6500 rpm
500 TQ at 5000 prm

i will be giving this motor a 150 shot.

anyone have any input on these cams?

Desktop dyno is not the best for comparing different cam lobes. It is good for showing peak HP and peak TQ RPM points, but isn't complex enough of a program to really give you good info when comparing different lobes.

The dyno numbers in that article are IMO a little "happy". The 294S will in real life make just over 500 HP in that combo and the XR286R that I mentioned will make right about 550. The hydraulic roller you mentioned will make about the same as the 294S I believe -- except with more TQ and peak HP at a lower RPM.

Hope that helps.

I've used the Comp 294S in a 383 very similar to the one in your article and I liked that cam. The truth is though, the 294S was an older design when I used it 6-7 years ago. A mild solid roller would be my suggestion.

I later swapped my 294S cam for a Comp XR286R and it picked up 3 tenths immediately. That cam also proved to be dead reliable and I beat the snot out of it with many street miles and many dragstrip passes for 5 years. Believe it or not that cam is still alive and happy even after I sold the motor.

I am going to really watch this post. I am wanting to build the best pump gas 383 I can with a solid flat tappet cam if possible.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread but my setup is almost exactly like the one in the article, only difference is the heads which are Dart 215cc Iron Eagles, 64cc chambers, 2.08 intake and 1.65 exhaust valves.
I want to be able to run 91 pump gas when on the street and better fuel when at the track.
I also want to stay around the same RPM range of 2500-6500 rpm.

I agree a good solid roller will do better. I got the XR286R with AFR 210's and quiet a few other goodies be on the dyno soon with some horrible headers. I absolutely love how the car drives though, got to work on suspension hard to get it hook in anything less than 3 in my TH350.

Keep in mind I believe that dyno data is made on the older AFRs not the Eliminators which flow better and have better velocities.

I like where you are going with the combo though.
What you doing for intake? I got a Wieand Team G.
I would go with an 850 double pumper personally, I got a 950 body on mine worked from Pro Systems and am planning on a 100-150 shot in the near future after I get the suspension hooking up. Well I guess I should say after a 9 in haha.

Eric Thanks for the input!

Ill run that cam later today, i know that Desktop Dyno isnt always dead on but other than track proven fact i dont have any other means of getting info. . . other than here :)

As for the heads i put in to calculate, ill check to see if the numbers are updated flow numbers or not. They may very well not be the eliminators.

If you have your flow numbers for your darts i could plug those in as well. I still have not bought the heads yet, going to the indy swap this weekend for some goodies :D gotta see how much money i got left over after that

I really wish I had the flow data for the dart heads, they haven't been ported but I will for sure do a gasket match and clean up all the castings.

Here is the article
http://www.airflowresearch.com/articles/article085/A-P1.htm

Is there a better cam for this combo now a days that will result in better numbers?
I would like to do the same combo but add a 150 shot. I would think that adding 1.6 rockers on exhaust side will allow more lift for the nitrous and getting a closer lobe center which would be better for the nitrous as well.


383 short block
195cc AFR
Forged Probe Pistons -4cc
Comp Cam 294S Solid
750 puddle dumper

Thoughts ?

IMO that engine dyno is HAPPY

We are making an honest ~530hp (maybe more, I'm leaning on the light side here) from GM 291 Camel Hump Heads

With the right package that engine "should" be 550hp or better

Desktop dyno is not the best for comparing different cam lobes. It is good for showing peak HP and peak TQ RPM points, but isn't complex enough of a program to really give you good info when comparing different lobes.

The dyno numbers in that article are IMO a little "happy". The 294S will in real life make just over 500 HP in that combo and the XR286R that I mentioned will make right about 550. The hydraulic roller you mentioned will make about the same as the 294S I believe -- except with more TQ and peak HP at a lower RPM.

Hope that helps.

I've used the Comp 294S in a 383 very similar to the one in your article and I liked that cam. The truth is though, the 294S was an older design when I used it 6-7 years ago. A mild solid roller would be my suggestion.

I later swapped my 294S cam for a Comp XR286R and it picked up 3 tenths immediately. That cam also proved to be dead reliable and I beat the snot out of it with many street miles and many dragstrip passes for 5 years. Believe it or not that cam is still alive and happy even after I sold the motor.

Eric is 100% correct and that is great advice for you

I am going to really watch this post. I am wanting to build the best pump gas 383 I can with a solid flat tappet cam if possible.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread but my setup is almost exactly like the one in the article, only difference is the heads which are Dart 215cc Iron Eagles, 64cc chambers, 2.08 intake and 1.65 exhaust valves.
I want to be able to run 91 pump gas when on the street and better fuel when at the track.
I also want to stay around the same RPM range of 2500-6500 rpm.

He is actually getting time to dyno the engine now, He has been very busy and will be getting it on the dyno soon he said so I will let you know what it does in his engine which is close to yours

Eric Thanks for the input!

Ill run that cam later today, i know that Desktop Dyno isnt always dead on but other than track proven fact i dont have any other means of getting info. . . other than here :)

As for the heads i put in to calculate, ill check to see if the numbers are updated flow numbers or not. They may very well not be the eliminators.

If you have your flow numbers for your darts i could plug those in as well. I still have not bought the heads yet, going to the indy swap this weekend for some goodies :D gotta see how much money i got left over after that

Dont worry about flow numbers too much

Worry about a head that works, your running your car not an engine dyno

When he finally does do the dyno run on the motor I would be extremely interested in what it does.
Do you know what cam he is going to be running during the dyno time??

Dont worry about flow numbers too much

Worry about a head that works, your running your car not an engine dyno

curious about the "A head that works?" statement. i dont understand where you are going with this?

I think what you mean is dont go by the HP/TQ numbers that a engine shows on the dyno because if its for a street / drag car its likely not to see high rpms all the time for those numbers?

Quick68,

I run the Extreme Energy cam that is similar to the NX grind you list but is one step larger. 242/248, .540/.562. I think you will like that grind a lot. Very street friendly and runs very well. I went 7.0s with a 406 and the AFR 195 heads with my cam.

As for making 570HP with it? I don't think so. I agree the article is a bit optimistic on the dyno, but don't worry about what the exact HP is. It will run the number.:thumbsup:

I am a huge fan of AFR heads. Yes they have great flow bench numbers but they also deliver in the real world as well. With a 150 shot you will be deep into the 10's, maybe even 9's.

when running these cams is there enough clearance for the cam/rods without running $ rods or is aftermarket the only way to go ? The guy who built my eng. says there was only room for .335 lift ?

when running these cams is there enough clearance for the cam/rods without running $ rods or is aftermarket the only way to go ? The guy who built my eng. says there was only room for .335 lift ?


If you are running these cams you need aftermarket rods. You also have to keep in mind .335 lift on a cam x 1.5-1.7 ratio rockers is a big diff. at 1.6 that is a .536 lift at the valve. What rods was this?


I also agree 100% on AFR heads. They perform because they have excellent velocities a flow. I can build a set of heads in my back yard that flows out of this world but it won't have velocities which means it will have a hard time with mixture motion and good spark timing, thus lacking in torque.

I don't think the dyno was happy though. Maybe a little high but not really look at AFR's site and see the numbers they have for alot of motors. Why would AFR back an article that is false? Why would a magazine company back a false article? YOu will have plenty of people calling in pissed for their false advertisement, me for one would be demanding my money back on the heads because they advertised a false article. If you question it call them and see what they say, they may very well say the same thing.

I am expecting 580-600 out of my 286R and AFR 210's. That I think is 100% reasonable.

If you are running these cams you need aftermarket rods. You also have to keep in mind .335 lift on a cam x 1.5-1.7 ratio rockers is a big diff. at 1.6 that is a .536 lift at the valve.

So what could the max lift be with say your run of the mill 383 stroker kit. I know i had to shave some off my block and a couple touchs on the rods for the clearance. .

Obviously u could up the rockers to make up for a smaller lift cam correct?

and . . .

Well how bought i throw another wrench in this mess :)
i happen to have already bought these items last year for a turbo motor.
AFR 227cc Eliminator heads
and Lunati 50105 cam
Lift .597 intake .600 Ex.
Dur. 259 in. and 266 Ex.
114 lobe seperation.

These items like i said are for a possible turbo motor down the road that i was going to put in this car but i decided to just put it back on the street and not chop it up.
i would like to get a roller chassis for this turbo motor but thats down the road.

As for the parts this is what i think

227cc i see as being to big for just a 383 with no power adder even with the 150 shot.

As for the cam i see it being to large as well. I think the Dur. is a lil high for running on the street. I think that takes the power band higher in the rpms than what id like it to be.

Thoughts?

As for the AFR's I always say Dyno and Track Tested, Gear head approved! The are awesome and worth the money

Im mostly intersted what you all think about the heads

For you consideration, I just had my AFR-195 headed 400 dynoed. It was built for solely street and highway use to go with a TKO-600 (0.64 OD) and 3.42 rear so low and midrange torque was all I cared about. I didn't want my power band to extend way past 6k given my gear and the fact that its a hydraulic roller cam. That, and I wanted the car to have manners like a daily driver.

Less than 10:1 compression
Pretty small hydraulic roller - 224/224 at 0.050" and 1.6 rockers, 108 LSA (custom single pattern grind of XR276HR)

Peaked out at
520 lb ft at 4100 RPM
500 hp at 5800 RPM
450 lb ft below 3000 RPM
1700 RPM between peak torque and peak hp is pretty good to me. You can imagine what going up in compression and moving to a larger yet still streetable cam would've done. There was a lot left on the table but I had it built for daily driver reliability.

The actual power band wound up being almost dead on to what the Comp Cams selector program said the standard XR276HR would be in a 350. I think with a lot of other heads it would've been choked down some between what the program said and how it would work with the extra displacement of a 400. The AFR-195's are what I credit with keeping the power band where I hoped it would be.

I'd expect a similar set up 383 to make a great street driver with very similar power band just going by what mine did. The rest of the set up (trans and rear) is going to make or break the engine....It took me many weeks of heart-to-heart conversations with myself about what I wanted and how the car was going to be used. I do not race and like to feel one rock back when you pat the gas without downshifting. Everyone's idea of a good street set-up is different though....I do a lot of highway driving and my city area is mostly multilane streets with 45+ mph limits.

So what could the max lift be with say your run of the mill 383 stroker kit. I know i had to shave some off my block and a couple touchs on the rods for the clearance. .

Obviously u could up the rockers to make up for a smaller lift cam correct?

and . . .

Well how bought i throw another wrench in this mess :)
i happen to have already bought these items last year for a turbo motor.
AFR 227cc Eliminator heads
and Lunati 50105 cam
Lift .597 intake .600 Ex.
Dur. 259 in. and 266 Ex.
114 lobe seperation.

These items like i said are for a possible turbo motor down the road that i was going to put in this car but i decided to just put it back on the street and not chop it up.
i would like to get a roller chassis for this turbo motor but thats down the road.

As for the parts this is what i think

227cc i see as being to big for just a 383 with no power adder even with the 150 shot.

As for the cam i see it being to large as well. I think the Dur. is a lil high for running on the street. I think that takes the power band higher in the rpms than what id like it to be.

Thoughts?

As for the AFR's I always say Dyno and Track Tested, Gear head approved! The are awesome and worth the money

Im mostly intersted what you all think about the heads
I'm not real happy trying AFR 227s on a 4.030 bore if thats the way your going for a 383.

I'm not real happy trying AFR 227s on a 4.030 bore if thats the way your going for a 383.

Just looking to see what everyones thoughts are. I think for a 383 without a major power adder (turbo, Blower , Large shot of NOS) they wouldnt do anything for me.
Only reason i ask is because i hate to just have them sit for another motor while i go buy the 195cc. Not a cheap build lol

I am running a 383 with the new 195 heads, probably dont have the compression (10.3) you guys have but I do run a 281/290 (231 x 239°) x .550 lift x 112° hydra roller from UdHarold. He recommended a small base circle cam but upon assembly, I could see it really was not necessary using Compstar profiled rods but could go to a larger cam later. Very streetable as I do lots of cruising.

I did not think of putting it on a dyno before installing it. Some day I will , I would like to see the real potential with a set of solids . I think the heads are about right with this CI but then if you go larger, you defeat your actual needs. I feel if you go to larger heads, the piston hole needs to increase , ie. 427 or 454 motors with adders or turbos.

So what could the max lift be with say your run of the mill 383 stroker kit. I know i had to shave some off my block and a couple touchs on the rods for the clearance. .

Obviously u could up the rockers to make up for a smaller lift cam correct?

and . . .

Well how bought i throw another wrench in this mess :)
i happen to have already bought these items last year for a turbo motor.
AFR 227cc Eliminator heads
and Lunati 50105 cam
Lift .597 intake .600 Ex.
Dur. 259 in. and 266 Ex.
114 lobe seperation.

These items like i said are for a possible turbo motor down the road that i was going to put in this car but i decided to just put it back on the street and not chop it up.
i would like to get a roller chassis for this turbo motor but thats down the road.

As for the parts this is what i think

227cc i see as being to big for just a 383 with no power adder even with the 150 shot.

As for the cam i see it being to large as well. I think the Dur. is a lil high for running on the street. I think that takes the power band higher in the rpms than what id like it to be.

Thoughts?

As for the AFR's I always say Dyno and Track Tested, Gear head approved! The are awesome and worth the money

Im mostly intersted what you all think about the heads

Honest opinion.... its a decent turbo cam could have some more overlap though, wouldn't use it with those heads.

I have AFR 210s, 383, XR286R, wieand team G intake, holley 950 double pumper from pro systems..... bunch of other expensive junk. My motor runs her *** off, won't hook in my car hardly at all.

I think the 227's are a bit large but if you want to use them this is what I would do. I would go with the largest cam you can find the XR292R (I think) or something similar would be good. Try to get it ground with a 110 or 108 LSA maybe even tighter to increase scavenging to get your velocity up. You have to remember AFR's have great velocity so the larger AFRs will act similar as small other heads but with better flow.

You also have to remember that the same cam in a short stroke 327 might rev close to 8k but when you put it in a 383 with the longer stroke and higher piston velocity you can peak it out at 6500 or so. You lower your effective power band and pick up torque. Stroke = peak torque and power band. Bore = peak power.

If I was you I would go with XR292R with a custom grind for tighter LSA and maybe even some extra duration by a few degrees to make up for the overlap. Every degree of overlap is 2 degrees more of cam overlap which is decreasing over all lift area thus you can increase duration. I would get at least a 950 carb and put her on the street. It might not be that great below 1500 but hey it will be leaps and bounds better than a 327 with 2/3's of the cam.

My advertised power band is 3000-7000. I can cruise at 1100 without any problem on my large headed, large carb'd and 383. Something everyone tried telling me I couldn't do.

The base lift of your cam is primarily limited by rods; therefore, there is no generic lift a rotating assembly should be able to take. It varies.

I would use them without a doubt since you have them..... AFR told me the 210's were a bad idea I told them I wanted them and send them.... Couldn't be happier. I do all this with a 3500+ stall on the street and never ever ever get my trans above 150 unless beating on the car non-stop and it sees maybe 180. This car is more streetable than street cars and I get great economy for what she is. I think she will be empty and go fill her up and after two gallons its full. Its how your entire system interacts to make power.

Honest opinion.... its a decent turbo cam could have some more overlap though, wouldn't use it with those heads.

I have AFR 210s, 383, XR286R, wieand team G intake, holley 950 double pumper from pro systems..... bunch of other expensive junk. My motor runs her *** off, won't hook in my car hardly at all.

I think the 227's are a bit large but if you want to use them this is what I would do. I would go with the largest cam you can find the XR292R (I think) or something similar would be good. Try to get it ground with a 110 or 108 LSA maybe even tighter to increase scavenging to get your velocity up. You have to remember AFR's have great velocity so the larger AFRs will act similar as small other heads but with better flow.

You also have to remember that the same cam in a short stroke 327 might rev close to 8k but when you put it in a 383 with the longer stroke and higher piston velocity you can peak it out at 6500 or so. You lower your effective power band and pick up torque. Stroke = peak torque and power band. Bore = peak power.

If I was you I would go with XR292R with a custom grind for tighter LSA and maybe even some extra duration by a few degrees to make up for the overlap. Every degree of overlap is 2 degrees more of cam overlap which is decreasing over all lift area thus you can increase duration. I would get at least a 950 carb and put her on the street. It might not be that great below 1500 but hey it will be leaps and bounds better than a 327 with 2/3's of the cam.

My advertised power band is 3000-7000. I can cruise at 1100 without any problem on my large headed, large carb'd and 383. Something everyone tried telling me I couldn't do.

The base lift of your cam is primarily limited by rods; therefore, there is no generic lift a rotating assembly should be able to take. It varies.

I would use them without a doubt since you have them..... AFR told me the 210's were a bad idea I told them I wanted them and send them.... Couldn't be happier. I do all this with a 3500+ stall on the street and never ever ever get my trans above 150 unless beating on the car non-stop and it sees maybe 180. This car is more streetable than street cars and I get great economy for what she is. I think she will be empty and go fill her up and after two gallons its full. Its how your entire system interacts to make power.

Michael,

when you taking her to the track?? Should run great!

Honest opinion.... its a decent turbo cam could have some more overlap though, wouldn't use it with those heads.

I have AFR 210s, 383, XR286R, wieand team G intake, holley 950 double pumper from pro systems..... bunch of other expensive junk. My motor runs her *** off, won't hook in my car hardly at all.

I think the 227's are a bit large but if you want to use them this is what I would do. I would go with the largest cam you can find the XR292R (I think) or something similar would be good. Try to get it ground with a 110 or 108 LSA maybe even tighter to increase scavenging to get your velocity up. You have to remember AFR's have great velocity so the larger AFRs will act similar as small other heads but with better flow.

You also have to remember that the same cam in a short stroke 327 might rev close to 8k but when you put it in a 383 with the longer stroke and higher piston velocity you can peak it out at 6500 or so. You lower your effective power band and pick up torque. Stroke = peak torque and power band. Bore = peak power.

If I was you I would go with XR292R with a custom grind for tighter LSA and maybe even some extra duration by a few degrees to make up for the overlap. Every degree of overlap is 2 degrees more of cam overlap which is decreasing over all lift area thus you can increase duration. I would get at least a 950 carb and put her on the street. It might not be that great below 1500 but hey it will be leaps and bounds better than a 327 with 2/3's of the cam.

My advertised power band is 3000-7000. I can cruise at 1100 without any problem on my large headed, large carb'd and 383. Something everyone tried telling me I couldn't do.

The base lift of your cam is primarily limited by rods; therefore, there is no generic lift a rotating assembly should be able to take. It varies.

I would use them without a doubt since you have them..... AFR told me the 210's were a bad idea I told them I wanted them and send them.... Couldn't be happier. I do all this with a 3500+ stall on the street and never ever ever get my trans above 150 unless beating on the car non-stop and it sees maybe 180. This car is more streetable than street cars and I get great economy for what she is. I think she will be empty and go fill her up and after two gallons its full. Its how your entire system interacts to make power.

Thanks for all the info! good to see someone else is running these huge heads :D
I like your setup curious what it would run at the track or on the dyno. Have you gone to either?

I am going to really watch this post. I am wanting to build the best pump gas 383 I can with a solid flat tappet cam if possible.
I don't want to hi-jack the thread but my setup is almost exactly like the one in the article, only difference is the heads which are Dart 215cc Iron Eagles, 64cc chambers, 2.08 intake and 1.65 exhaust valves.
I want to be able to run 91 pump gas when on the street and better fuel when at the track.
I also want to stay around the same RPM range of 2500-6500 rpm.

With the 215 head in the rpm range 2500 to 6500 you are going to give away a fair bit of low end from 2500 to 4000. A smaller head would be better suited to you rpm goals.

The 215 head is still good choice but more suited a little higher 4000 and upwards

To the person asking about heads

The Pro-Filer 210cc Aluminum Heads ar egetting awesome results, We have a set we are testing our self. They cost $1,000 a pair set up for Roller camshaft, We opted to go with back cut valves, spring & retainer upgrade etc and are still below $1,600.00. Your average solid roller cam doesnt need the upgrades we have

They do not charge you for,,,,
milling, valve size increase and EVERY VALVE JOBBED HEAD (assembled or bare) comes with a BOWL BLEND to set the throat the proper size for the valve being used.

Ours were milled to 62cc, Every chamber pours 62.15cc to 62.20cc. Some CNC'd heads are not this good in terms of cc's

Here is the flow data on our set, with some pics (not good pics, sorry, will get some good pics maybe tomorrow)
Flowed @ 28" on a 4.070" bore fixture, 2.055/1.600 valves. Gasket matched.

ACFM
Lift No. 1 No. 2
-------- ------- -------
0.2000 143.0 96.2
0.3000 204.3 150.1
0.4000 249.7 178.0
0.5000 284.2 198.8
0.6000 299.6 211.0
0.7000 299.6 218.1
0.8000 301.9 221.3
0.9000 301.9 222.9
1.0000 299.6 222.9
-------- ------- -------
Average: 264.9 191.0

Here are some pics of the heads,,,
Intake Runners (with gasket match)
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s347/331Trmnatr/DVC00185.jpg

D-Port Exhaust Ports
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s347/331Trmnatr/DVC00173.jpg

Chambers & Valve Bowls
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s347/331Trmnatr/DVC00171.jpg

Wear pattern with no adjustment, Needs some, very minor as you can see. The geometry on these heads are awesome
http://i510.photobucket.com/albums/s347/331Trmnatr/DVC00166.jpg