I am working on a 350 motor for my 69 coupe. I am in college and am on a pretty tight budget. I had a set of 1970s 76cc heads but one is really pitted and I can't re-use it. I found a set of double hump heads on eBay and I am wondering if they would be a good match.

Engine specs:
350 bored to 363 (.080 over)

I haven't bought my cam yet but someone on the board recommended Comp 12-208-2 (Intake 211 Exhaust 221)

The heads are 462 double hump, Casting numbers 3890462 and 378246x so they are unmatched. 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust.

There is no way I can afford aluminum heads, so would this be a good option or are there other stock heads I should look for?

Thanks!
Brian

Sorry for the back to back post, but it wouldn't let me edit the original one. I found out that these heads don't have accessory ports. Does this mean that I can't mount the alternator.

I also found a set of 69 heads casting 3932441. 194 Intake and 1.50 exhaust. Would these be a better way to go?

unless your going for a resto of your engine, you can purchase the alt mount rods from your local auto store. One the mounts to either the front of the manifold or to the water pump bolt, the other to the exhaust manifold, or header mount. I have th 462's as well and its pretty much a stock look as far as a 67 is concerned.

Right, no holes, no stock alternater mounting.

The 441's would be ok, too. they got holes,rght?

441's will work on a mild motor fine on the street.

If you had to choose between 441s for $300 and bare 186s that are ported for $500 what would you do? I have valves and springs I can put in them. I will need to put in hardened seats. Would there be a big difference between the two?

What parts do you have ? I believe I would buy new complete Vortec heads if I needed an intake, vallve covers etc. Otherwise I'd try to get some Pro TopLine iron lightenings.

I have the block, crank, valves, springs, rods, and 69 finned valve covers. I had heads that I was going to use, but one is too pitted. I could probably get some mid 70's heads for free, but I thought I would look at my options. I need an intake too. What kind of money would I be looking at for vortec heads or topline? Like I said earlier, I am in college full time and I am on a small budget. I also found some 186s here in town that need rebuild for $300. I am leaning toward stock heads because of the cost.

trying to use a head without accessory holes on a '69's gonna be a hassle. You'll have to move your alternator to the other side, and use one of those header mount brackets. In 5 years, I've had 4 of those break. And you'll still have to get the pulleys to line up.

Originally posted by JimM:
trying to use a head without accessory holes on a '69's gonna be a hassle. You'll have to move your alternator to the other side, and use one of those header mount brackets. In 5 years, I've had 4 of those break. And you'll still have to get the pulleys to line up. Yeah, that is what I figured. I am definately going to get something with the accessory holes. I just have to figure out what to get and if it is worth the extra money. At this point, aluminum heads are definately off the table. They are just too expensive.

Both my 68 Camaro & 71 Elky have heads that don't have accessory holes.Both have alts. on the passenger side. March Performance makes brakets that mount to the water pump using the waterpump mounting bolts.They're made for heads without accessory holes.

Originally posted by kool:
Both my 68 Camaro & 71 Elky have heads that don't have accessory holes.Both have alts. on the passenger side. March Performance makes brakets that mount to the water pump using the waterpump mounting bolts.They're made for heads without accessory holes. Kool-

Thanks for the info. The heads I was going to buy without accessory holes are already sold. Now I am just trying to decide between the 186s and the 441s. I will be sure to keep that in mind if I run into a good deal on some older heads.

The 186 casting is a good one for its time, and of course has the accesory holes. If they are profesionally ported, $500 might not be too bad. those for $300 would buy you some parts and machining $$$. You could do the basic bowl blend yourself, and use the money you saved on getting them built up ( and checked out). The 186 head casting will give you the correct option for alternator mounting for 1969. With large valves,1.6 x 2.02", this # was used for the 1969 Z-28.

Rob

A set of New Complete Vortec's are about $500.
http://www.paceparts.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=24756
You would need to buy an intake manifold and either centerbolt valve covers or adapters. I've seen Pro Toplines complete for about $800.
They are "bare" here: http://www.carshopinc.com/index.php/manufacturers_id/331825
Probably your best bet if you get "old" heads with no accessory holes would be an alternator bracket from Alan Grove Components, and leave the alternator on the passenger side. http://www.alangrovecomponents.com/S.B.Long_Pump.htm

[ 12-18-2004, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: TJS69 ]

Originally posted by olympic69:
The 186 casting is a good one for its time, and of course has the accesory holes. If they are profesionally ported, $500 might not be too bad. those for $300 would buy you some parts and machining $$$. You could do the basic bowl blend yourself, and use the money you saved on getting them built up ( and checked out). The 186 head casting will give you the correct option for alternator mounting for 1969. With large valves,1.6 x 2.02", this # was used for the 1969 Z-28.

Rob The $500 ones were professionally ported. I assume I can reuse the springs and valves I had from my old heads because they are the same size. I just got off the phone with the local guy and it turns out that one head is 2.02 and the other is 1.94 so I would have to have one resized. They have been magnafluxed, but I don't know that it would be worth the extra work since they don't match.

Any suggestions about the performance difference between the 441 and the 186 heads? If I buy the 441s, I will have to add hardened seats and port them. If I buy the 186s I will just have to add hardened seats. What kind of horsepower differences will I see?

A pair of protopline Vortec #906 heads are $499.00 for the pair ready to bolt on. These are an improved copy of the GM head and already have bigger springs, stainless valves and screw in studs. If you need and intake al ready going this rout will be the best for the money. After getting everything you need plan on spending about $800.00. You will have the best heads availble for the money and they will be ready for any upgrades you want to make later.

Vortec Heads for $499.00 Click here (http://www.primediapowerpages.com/cgi-bin/ePages7.filereader?41c51c290016776a0000c0a8013a05d a+EN/products/100216&2D1007246)

Joe

Originally posted by Joe Harrison:
A pair of protopline Vortec #906 heads are $499.00 for the pair ready to bolt on. These are an improved copy of the GM head and already have bigger springs, stainless valves and screw in studs. If you need and intake al ready going this rout will be the best for the money. After getting everything you need plan on spending about $800.00. You will have the best heads availble for the money and they will be ready for any upgrades you want to make later.

Vortec Heads for $499.00 Click here (http://www.primediapowerpages.com/cgi-bin/ePages7.filereader?41c51c290016776a0000c0a8013a05d a+EN/products/100216&2D1007246)

Joe Joe, I don't really know anything about vortec heads. What are the advantages? I am assuming that they are cooler and they won't crack as easily as stock heads. Can I use my stock valve covers? What kind of intake manifold would I need? What would be the horsepower difference over stock heads?

Thanks a lot,
Brian

might want to check these out, seller has 0 feedback though and no telling what $ they will end up at. SS

vortecs (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33617&item=7942035530&rd=1)

If you like horsepower do not get a set of 441 or 881 heads.
Horrible combustion chamber design that prohibits torque and effeciency.
The people who swapped to something different know what I'm talking about.

If you want early heads that have acc holes the casting numbers you are looking for are 186, 041, and 492 I believe.I have never seen a set of the 186's that didn't have the acc holes in them but they are supposed to be out there.
Any of the factory double hump heads are good performers on a mild combo, but the ones without acc holes are likely to be cracked.

That's it for early steel production heads worth a darn.

Here is a site that lists some of the factory stuff. http://www.lentmachinery.com/auto/chevy_casting_mark_information.htm
Go to the bottom and look at the chart.Anything in the bottom .Those last five casting numbers you don't want.

Now the Vortec's, that's another story.It's simply the best performing production line head ever produced.Some say they are thin castings and prone to crack.
Some one already told you of the intake, rocker, and valve cover issue so no need for me to go over it.It's extra money.

[ 12-19-2004, 05:51 AM: Message edited by: thrasher ]

441 are 76cc and the 186s are 64cc.Look at Competition Products you can get a set of Pro Topline Torker 167cc intake runner 67cc heads assembled for $529.They would flow as good as the old stock heads and are all new. You can get World SR Torquer 170cc runner 67cc chambers for $679.Not bad prices when you compare to building used heads.We run circle track and have to use factory heads and it is getting very hard to find the older good heads that arent cracked or worn completly out.

I should have mentioned it in my first post but I agree with the others.
Vortec or after market is where to look.

The only downside to Vortecs is the need for an intake and self aligning rocker arms. If you already have one and are on a budget the standard heads are a better choice.

Thanks for all the information guys... I still have a few questions.

-Which intake would you recommend to go with vortec heads? I had originally planned on an edelbrock performer eps. They are pretty inexpensive and seem to be pretty good performance.

-What would I have to do to run stock valve covers on the vortec or torker heads?

-What are the main advantages over the 186 heads. If I buy stock ones, these are the ones I am most considering. As far as machine work goes, they are $500 and I would have to add hardened seats. They are already ported and I can have the valves put in for free. I can also put on my valve covers with no modification and buy a less expensive intake manifold.

-What is the horsepower difference between the 186 and the vortec heads?

-Will all of this fit under my standard hood with a factory breather?

I am sorry for asking so many questions but I have no money to waste and I just want to make sure I understand fully before I invest it. I had free 76cc heads to start with, so this is money I hadn't planned to spend.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Joe Harrison:
A pair of protopline Vortec #906 heads are $499.00 for the pair ready to bolt on. These are an improved copy of the GM head and already have bigger springs, stainless valves and screw in studs. If you need and intake al ready going this rout will be the best for the money. After getting everything you need plan on spending about $800.00. You will have the best heads availble for the money and they will be ready for any upgrades you want to make later.

Vortec Heads for $499.00 Click here

Joe Holy Cow...! If your gonna look hard at something like this, then just go for the aluminum heads! You can start to get into these around the $900.00 mark. Ever check in with the local speed shops? I've seen nice hardley used pieces go for that or less. I'm only into my Dart Pro1's for $1,200 and those are the 215cc heads. You might also call around the Topika area machine shops and see if they have any unclaimed heads. Sometimes folks can't pay and the shops end up selling it off for what they have into them. Is there any TC Members in the KS, MO area that can help this guy?

Hobbes9112: If you find yourself heading West, I'm sure I can find something here in CO that will fit into the budget! It's not that hard to find some decent pieces here and keep it fairly cheep

Best of luck and let me know how the hunting goes

Tom

Hotrodsusa might still be selling Pro- 192CC aluminum head kits for $750? I figure they are about the best bang for the buck out there for aluminum jobbers until they are gone...

I want a pair but I just don't have the money after buying my old P/U..

And Christmas is coming up so there goes money in envelopes for the kids and such, too.......
Let them get what they want sorta deal b/c it isn't presents wrapped up!!

Merry Christmas...

pdq67

$150.00 to $200.00 for hardened seats around here. The other questions is are the guides and intake seats in the 186s good? You are talking about 30 plus year old heads.Flow numbers on Vortecs and a good port job on 186s should be close but no way to know with out flow bench on the 186s.The aftermarket heads use standard valve covers the Vortecs use centerbolt.Where are the 186s comming from?Performer RPM for Vortecs Summit $175.88.You mey have to change air cleaner but the heads and intakes are close to stoch height.

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
$150.00 to $200.00 for hardened seats around here. The other questions is are the guides and intake seats in the 186s good? You are talking about 30 plus year old heads.Flow numbers on Vortecs and a good port job on 186s should be close but no way to know with out flow bench on the 186s.The aftermarket heads use standard valve covers the Vortecs use centerbolt.Where are the 186s comming from?Performer RPM for Vortecs Summit $175.88.You mey have to change air cleaner but the heads and intakes are close to stoch height. The 186 heads are for sale in the classified section here on TC. The seller says the only thing they need are valve seats. I have a good used set of valves, springs, rockers, and rods that should fit these heads. I also already spent quite a bit on finned valve covers and a stock breather. I don't plan to use the stock breather all the time, but I had wanted to put it on for car shows. I guess I could sell them if I have to.

What kind of horsepower do you think I could get out of the vortec or the 186s?

I am very skeptical of stuff on ebay you can find out who the seller is and see if it is a team member or just someone using the classifieds.At $500.00 plus $200 for seats and machine work you cam buy NEW heads.The only way I would run the 186s was if I had a numbers correct Z28.Or they were very cheap.JMO Horsepower depends on alot more than just heads, cam intake carb. exhaust compression etc come into play.Either head should be able to make 300 to 400hp on a 350.

You can use your valve covers on everything but the Vortecs.

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
I am very skeptical of stuff on ebay you can find out who the seller is and see if it is a team member or just someone using the classifieds.At $500.00 plus $200 for seats and machine work you cam buy NEW heads.The only way I would run the 186s was if I had a numbers correct Z28.Or they were very cheap.JMO Horsepower depends on alot more than just heads, cam intake carb. exhaust compression etc come into play.Either head should be able to make 300 to 400hp on a 350. Me too. With the 76cc heads that were originally on the engine, it was between 300 and 330 hp at the flywheel. I just dont' know if I can justify spending $700+ to get these heads if the gains aren't appreciable. I could probably get another 76cc set for free (I am going to look at a set on Tuesday) and just get them magnafluxed and port them. There is also that set of 186s here in town for $300 but I would have to have the valves enlarged in one.

As far as the rest of the combo goes:
-350 bored .080 over
-Comp Dual Energy Cam (211 Intake, 221 Exhaust) (haven't bought yet so open to suggestions)
-650cfm Edelbrock carb
-Exhaust is dual 2.5 inch with stock manifolds. I had considered headers but I need something quieter for parades, crusing, and dates.

Too many decisions to make! =) If only I had some money, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Not to hijack this thread but how would you tell if a set of early heads were cracked if they were still on the engine and the engine ran ok? Just curious if it is similar to a blown head gasket or what. Where do they usually crack on double humps?

For your combo if I could find a good set of 76cc heads cheap I would out them on and not worry about it.This would keep the compression down for pump gas probably 87.For really high horsepower the manifolds are hurting more than the heads.

Here is some very interesting reading for your exhaust dilemma: http://www.boyleworks.com/ta400/psp/exhaust.html

graemlins/beers.gif

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
For your combo if I could find a good set of 76cc heads cheap I would out them on and not worry about it.This would keep the compression down for pump gas probably 87.For really high horsepower the manifolds are hurting more than the heads. What is the actual difference in performance between the 76cc and the 64cc? Does smaller cc= higher compression= more horsepower?

I might end up buying headers at some point if I can find some that are ceramic and clear the power steering and ac without too much work. I am just trying to get as much bang for the buck as I can. If I can get 350 hp out of this thing I would be more than happy.

It is almost impossible to tell I have seen an engine run fine tear it down for a rebuild and find cracks in the head.Most of the time the cracks are in the combustion chamber between the valve seats.But can be anywhere. Magnafluxing does not always find them. They can be cracked in the poprts from freezing and not be visible from the outside.Pressure testing will usually find them.

Originally posted by MytMini:
Here is some very interesting reading for your exhaust dilemma: http://www.boyleworks.com/ta400/psp/exhaust.html

graemlins/beers.gif Thanks for the article. Definately gives me something to think about!

The higher compression makes a little more hp but not much. If you only change compression ratio the hp change is only a few percent.In production parts the good highperf. heads had 64cc chambers and better ports.With aftermarket heads the ports are the same.For a pump gas street engine you need to stay with around 9.5 to 1 comp.

What kind of difference in horsepower would I see between ported 76cc heads from the mid 70s and ported 861s?

Does anyone have any idea of what it would cost to get the valve size enlarged on a head? The set here in town has one 2.02 and one 1.94 head.

For 500.00 I have a set of 492 angle plug heads dated Jan 69. I took them off a 69 Z28 I was restoring back to stock a few years ago. The ports appear to be gasket matched and smoothed out. Valves , springs, screw in studs and guide plates. No rocker arms. Not trying to make a sales pitch, just offering a alternative. I have no idea what shipping would be.

Originally posted by clill:
For 500.00 I have a set of 492 angle plug heads dated Jan 69. I took them off a 69 Z28 I was restoring back to stock a few years ago. The ports appear to be gasket matched and smoothed out. Valves , springs, screw in studs and guide plates. No rocker arms. Not trying to make a sales pitch, just offering a alternative. I have no idea what shipping would be. Would I need to put in hardened seats? Any other work that would need to be done? I didn't see the 492 heads listed in my Camaro book, but I found them online. 64cc, 2.02/160? 1970 and up?

What do you guys think? Would I see much difference over the ported 76cc heads? Would the compression be too high for pump gas? Will having angled plugs keep me from adding headers later?

[ 12-19-2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Hobbes9112 ]

Hobbes- When I took my heads in to be gone through I had asked the same question. Machinists answer was that unless I was planning on using the motor for racing or hauling there was no nead for it. Besides you can pick up the lead additive at wallys for $4.

Originally posted by Nantooch:
Hobbes- When I took my heads in to be gone through I had asked the same question. Machinists answer was that unless I was planning on using the motor for racing or hauling there was no nead for it. Besides you can pick up the lead additive at wallys for $4. So I would add it to every tank of gas?

yes and no, you can, but is not truly necessary. I do it about every other or every 3rd tank. Just helps keep the valve train lubed. The amount is about 3/4 of a shot to every 10 gallons

The price I put up was with heads, intake, gaskets, rocker arms and pushrods. not knowing what you have for a piston you compression with Vortecs will be about 9.5:1 which will be about the limit with pump gas depending on your tune and cam.

You will need valve covers and they are about $100.00. The vortec heads from topline have thicker castings and are an improvment over the stock GM casted vortecs.

A Vortec head will out perform any of the old heads your looking at. The aftermarket heads in regard to performance are great but don't buy bigger than your going to need. The votec will be there for you as you car grows. If you get to the point that you need more flow you can always sell them and get most of your money back on what the heads cost. Look for them on e-bay people buy them like hotcakes at church breakfast.

In my opinion what you need is a good reliable set-up and something you will not have problems with. Votecs are the answer.

I will be buying them for my 67 Camaro and it's 327 when the time comes that I must replace heads.

Think of it this way, any small block production head Chevy has ever made will not out flow a vortec. Bang for the buck.

Joe

Joe-

Thanks for all the good information. It definately gives me some more to think about. I just have to decide if I can justify spending $800. From what I have been able to dig up, it looks like I will gain at least 20hp over stock heads. I am just worried about the compression because the bore on the block is so big. I am not sure what pistons I have because they came free with the rest of the parts. I will try to find out what they are on Tuesday.

I am going to look at a set of 76cc heads on Tuesday. They were offered to me for free. I have to take them off the block to see what they are and if they are any good. If they end up needing a bunch of work, I am going to buy some heads. I am still trying to decide between the vortec and buying some stock heads. There are several sets on eBay that are pretty reasonable.

Is there a big difference in performance between the 2.02 valves and the 1.94 when looking at stock heads?

As I said earlier with stock exhaust manifolds and small cam it doesnt matter much which heads you run.The difference in 2.02 and 1.94 valves and 64 vs 76cc are only a small part of the total package.On your budget I would find a good set of 76cc stock heads and put it together. Save some money and build 383 or 400 later.I am not trying to be rude or anything but you are worrying to much about heads.IMHO on a MILD street motor its not that critical.

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
As I said earlier with stock exhaust manifolds and small cam it doesnt matter much which heads you run.The difference in 2.02 and 1.94 valves and 64 vs 76cc are only a small part of the total package.On your budget I would find a good set of 76cc stock heads and put it together. Save some money and build 383 or 400 later. Do you think I can get 330-350 hp out of it like that? I was also considering an x-pipe and new mufflers to help the flow.

You know a lot more than I do so if you see me shooting myself in the foot please let me know. I don't need anything too radical. I am going to run it in front of a 2004-r and a 3.73 posi. The overdrive will help keep the rpm down for highway.

It would be nice if I could go beyond that hp range but it isn't a necessity. If I can get to 330-350 I will be very happy. If you think headers and a different set of heads are the way to go... let me know. I might just have to put the project back on hold and save some more money. Better to do it right the first time.

I would be more worried about an .080" over, 350 block, imho!!! Hope it's a GOOD one...

(I finally sat down and read completely through this is all)...

pdq67

PS., and BTW, a stock, L-48 350 motor with no more then a good old 350hp/327 cam in it AND nothing else should put you up to 330 hp or so, again, jmho... AND it should still run on good pump gas...

I ran one in my motor for years and really liked the top end of second and the third gear charge!!

I am definately worried about the .080 over block as we have discussed several times in other posts. I just got it back from the machine shop and it was freshly tanked, bored, etc. It looks good. They original engine builder claims he hasn't had trouble with these blocks as long as the cam isn't too radical. I am going to get a pretty good sized radiator and an upgraded fan to try to help keep this thing cool.

Hopefully when I go to look at these free heads on Tuesday I will fall into a gold mine. If not, I guess it will be decision time. No reason to waste a bunch of money having them reworked if they are junk.

Thanks for all of your help guys. This is the first motor I have ever built so I need all the help I can get. Sorry if I have frustrated any of you, but I just don't have the money to waste on the wrong parts. Thanks again!

[ 12-19-2004, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes9112 ]

Something is very, very wrong about this whole deal. .080 over? Where would you even get pistons for something like that (unless they are custom)? I've never met a machinist who would even dream of punching one out that far! It could be done on some old 283's and I've even seen it done on a few early 327's...but never even heard of that on a 350. Is the engine assembled?
If it is truly bored .080, for whatever reason, and you or whoever spent the big $$$'s for custom pistons, I personally would not be shooting for big power numbers. Sounds like a time bomb to me. It sounds like you are just looking for a dependable driver/show car, and thats fine. IMO, the best thing you could do would take your current heads, find a reputable engine rebuilding shop, and swap the heads for a set that are already done. Around Tulsa, you can get a set of rebuilt, basic 76cc 1.94/1.50 heads for $250 plus your heads as cores. I highly recommend that you do NOT use mismatched heads. I have worked on engines like that and they rarely run smoothly. Buying someone elses supposedly "professionally ported" heads is a big risk also. Do you know for a fact they are professionally done, or did Joe Blow jump in there with a die grinder and screw up the airflow or worse yet, get a little too close to a waterjacket?
IMO, your best bet is something like a brand new set of dart s/r's or s/r torkers. You can get them for around $700 with good stainless valves, hardened seats, good valvesprings, screw in studs, etc...and they dont come with 30+ years of water jacket corrosion. And, your valve covers and a cheaper intake will bolt up. I don't care for pro-toplines...but then again my 1 experience with them was terrible. S/r torkers will support 350+ hp easily...but then again I wouldn't shoot for 350+ with a .080 over block! Check with a local engine shop...I bet they can fix you up.

Travis-

Thanks for the tips. I understand the concern. I couldn't believe it either. I got the engine with a blown head gasket for free. The original owner hadn't put enough coolant in it. It had sat out in the ran for about a week before he put it in his barn. When I tore off the heads a year later, they were pitted and so was one cylinder. I got another block for free and we had it bored to match the pistons that came with the engine. The engine only had about 3000 miles on it when it blew so they were in good shape. If I had known at the time that the heads weren't any good, I would have passed on the deal and found a regular 350 block. I only have about $300 invested in the project so far.

The guy that built the engine before the blown gasket has been in business for over 20 years and he claims that they will run just fine if you use a mild cam. I guess I will find out.

As far as the heads go, I have decided to try to get some 76cc's. I am going to check out the ones that my friend has offered me on Tuesday. If they are decent, I will have him do a valve job on them and call it good. If not, I will just buy some from a machine shop and trade the ones I have.

Wish me luck!

There are several companies thet are selling .080 pistons for 350 and 327.I guess it is supply and demand blocks that will clear at .060 are getting harder to find.On a stock rebuild or mild performance the .080 over is not a problem.

80 Over never saw that. I would cut my losses and start over. If that thing ever comes apart you will be out short block and maybe heads.

You talked about saving your money. If you can save up check this out;

330 H/P and 380 Ft lbs of torque. It a crate engine and costs $2375 for long block. Not a bad deal but you can do better if you build it yourself.

Vortec crate engine (http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySmallBlockV8s/330.html)

It's your money so spend it wisely. I don't think (I know I would not)I would be investing in an .080 over block.

Joe

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
There are several companies thet are selling .080 pistons for 350 and 327.I guess it is supply and demand blocks that will clear at .060 are getting harder to find.On a stock rebuild or mild performance the .080 over is not a problem. Where are you finding these at? Short of a custom big $$$ forging, I have never heard of anybody offering that size?

I dunno. Maybe its different in the rest of the world, but around here I could go out in an afternoon and come back with a pickup bed full of 350 blocks. Maybe I need to change professions ;)

I remember reading somewhere years ago that a .030 over engine is actually worth a couple of hp over a standard bore engine built otherwise identical, and that a .060 over engine will make a few less hp and the rings wont live quite as long because the cylinder walls aren't as stable. I believe this is something David Vizard wrote several years back.

Please look into Midwest Motorsports in Ames, IA for a decent priced shortblock assembly...

Shipping or even driving to it won't be all that bad since you are in Kansas, at least I do it for parts sometimes to save freight..

They have GOOD "Claimer" motors starting at $1000 or so and one of them should be fine for a mild motor.

They were starting at around $700 or so but have since been bumped up like everything else....

pdq67

For god sakes! Find another block. Your car is too nice to be messing around with a block like that. You may find it troubling to keep the dang thing cool. Northern Auto Parts in Sioux City Iowa has stock cast flat top COMPLETE engine kits for 159.00.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=380. I would upgrade to the Energizer 272H and maybe a high volume oil pump. The shipping won't be bad. It is less than $20 to your door as I recall. All quality parts.
I'm sure you can find a good block somewhere. If not email me as my buddy has around 15-20 complete small blocks as well as good rebuildable short blocks. You should be able to pick up a good block for around $100. If you have flat top pistons now with 76cc heads you'd probably be barely running over 9 to 1 compression with .080" over pistons. :rolleyes: I would definitely go with Vortecs or the Toplines. With that small of a camshaft and compression, you don't need 2.02/1.60 valves. What ever you do good luck to you, but I think I would ditch the block! ;)

A company called Zollner and I think the Silvolite brand are making an .080 piston. These are rebuilder cast pistons not performance stuff.Not being smarta$$ but I need to come see you Travis around here finding a good 350 is very hard.There are 4 circle tracks within a 100 mile circle you cant find a 400 is impossible and a good 350 is hard.

The salvage yards around here are still full of them. Not quite as full as they was 5-6 years ago but still easy to find. Of course 400's are like hens teeth around here too.
That just strikes me as odd that anybody makes a rebuilder .080 piston. I guess it makes sense...and I guess it could be fine for basic transportation. I wouldn't risk it myself. Then again, many years ago I spun a rod in a 350, and ended up having to get the crank turned .040 :eek: I drove that sucker HARD for 2 more years before I finally sold it...never had a problem with it. .040 bearings was available special order too.

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
As I said earlier with stock exhaust manifolds and small cam it doesnt matter much which heads you run.The difference in 2.02 and 1.94 valves and 64 vs 76cc are only a small part of the total package.On your budget I would find a good set of 76cc stock heads and put it together. Save some money and build 383 or 400 later.I am not trying to be rude or anything but you are worrying to much about heads.IMHO on a MILD street motor its not that critical. I disagree with this theory. On a stock motor with stock cam and exhaust manifolds, the heads and compression ratio were the only changes that made the jump in hp fom 255 to 300(Just one example). The use of solid lifters then took the stock motors into the highest hp ranges. A good set of heads and a quality intake can make the difference between a pooch and a performer.

Don't forget that people are running our motors with the cranks cut down to, (I think), the Honda size at 1.88" or some such small rod journal to free up some power AND they are ran in Pro- Trucks way up above 8,000rpm!!

And I have read somewhere that we can buy .100" undersized BB crank bearings too...

But, I'm with Travis on the .080" oversized piston deal????? Usually was .020", .030", .040", .060" and finally .125" over...

pdq67

I have seen and used .080 over pistons. An engine I used them in an engine I built for a friend, they were silvolites. Engine ran good and just a little warm for about 10,000 miles and sold the truck. He sold it to antoher friend who knew how it was built (on a shoe string budget)and he put about a year and half on it. Finally thought it blew a head gasket. Nope it was a pin hole in the cylinder wall. You never know what's going to happen with an engine like this. Rebuilders will take a chance and if it makes out of warranty they have nothing to worry about.

Call or e-mail Travis for some help getting a block. As stated above your car is to nice. Also if you chip the piant doing it the second time around you saved nothing.

Joe

sicsD8 you are right but you are talking about rated hp. not dyno proven.My point was on a stock or mild engine with exhaust manifolds and small cam you dont need 200cc intake runner aluminum heads.Also on a flat top 350 you with a cam in the 210 to 220 duration @ .050 you dont need 64cc. heads.10.5 to 1 is to much compression for a cast iron head street motor.The solid lifter high HP. engines were in Vettes and Chevy 2s with rams horn exhaust with 2.5" outlets and head pipes. Not log manifolds and 2" or smaller.Put headers on a 302 Z and see it come alive.I also thought the 255 hp 350 came with single exhaust and the 300 hp got dauls.Also on the factory rating thing a 302 has 11to1 2.02 valves solid cam aluminum intake and 780 holley 290hp. the 300 hp 350 had 1.94 valves Qjet and cast iron intake hyd cam. and 10to1comp.Cant always believe what the factory said.

[ 12-20-2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: 67 Plum ]

http://www.dallasexportsales.com/OnlineSpecials.htm here is a link to .080 over 350 pistons.

http://www.beckracing.com/slvpg15.htm about half way down the page are some more .080 350 pistons I am not saying this is the best thing to do but the parts are there.You are only talking about .010 a side bigger on the bore I think if it will run at .060 it will run at .080JMO.

67 Plum- In most cases the factory ratings were conservative. Especially in the Chevrolet performance engines. They were trying to fool the EPA. Ask anyone who has a stock 302 if they feel that 290hp is an accurate rating for that motor.

I agree but I dont think they picked up 45hp going from 441 heads with 1.94 valves to 041 with the same valves.

Let's look at it this way, a two barrel, 210hp/327 motor with 70 cc or so 1.72"/1.50" small valve heads became a 275hp/327 with just a set of 1.94"/1.50" valve double-hump medium heads and a stock four barrel!!

pdq67

We could argue this forever a Qjet flows 750cfm. alot pf difference from the two barrel.The point I was trying to make is there is more to an engine than heads. You can make 300hp with 882s or 041.You have to make other changes.As I said and do believe on a stock or mild engine the difference is not that great.You would never believe you can make horsepower with 882 smog heads but we run them on our circle track car as cast unported 3angle valve job 1.94 and 1.5 valves.We turn our motor 7200 to 7400 we have run vortecs and 186s in other classes very little difference in lap times.

For the cost I still vote vortec. If you buy 882's depending on casting date they are light casting heads and prone to crack between valve seats, these are dates stating arount 78-79 from experiance. The topline 906 vortec casting address the light-casting problem with vortecs because the GM produced castings are prone to crack also. So with the topline 906 we have a fix for a factory defect that can show up in heads, not all but some do it's hit and miss with the 882's. Don't even think about 624's. So the vortecs eliminate a possible/likely expense at some point.

Next thing about vortecs; When you want to make some more power you will have a set of heads that are better than any stock production head GM has ever offered. So we have a cost savings here also. Next is the fact that your stepping into the latest technology GM has to offer for small block heads and the asking price to that is not much more than a used set of heads that are not even comparable in regard to performance and efficiency. Old heads are just that. I have a pair that are great but are rotting from the inside out. Machine a seat in ahead that has bad water jackets and you just might get into one. This has happened to me one time and I have seen it happen to others. Sometimes you don't know until you run them. I always have old heads pressure checked just to make sure there are no problems here, but that is just another expense. To me vortecs are the money saving cost effective way to go for a daily driven streetcar or a mild to moderate performance car. Now if you want that stock look you only have one choice........old heads.

Joe

I agree with the new heads Joe. But if you already have an intake and valve covers witch Hobbes does. You can get World products or Pro Toplines and others non vortec heads and have less money in them than Vortecs.You also have to consider comp. if you already have a shortblock the 64cc. chamber may give you to much.

[ 12-22-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: 67 Plum ]

I talked to the engine builder today. He can get me a rebuilt set of heads for $120 plus core. They will be ready to bolt on the block and that sound pretty reasonable to me. Now I just need to decide between 76cc and 64cc. I am leaning toward 76cc because that was what was originally on the motor and I don't want the compression to be too high. When I get out of school and have a little more cash flow, I will definately think about the vortec upgrade.

I would get the 76cc. Nothing like using the cheap 87 octane.

We also talked earlier in the thread about getting another block and starting over. I don't think I am going to do that right now, but I did run into a pretty good opportunity. There is a guy in town that is clearing out a barn full of motors. When he builds new ones for his cars, he just puts the old ones out in the barn. He has sold most of them, but I do have the chance to pick up a 327 or 350 (4 bolt) for about $150. The guy says the engines just need to be rebuilt. I am going to go look at a few and depending on what heads come with the block, I might pick up one.

What way should I go... 327 or 350?

350 no substitute for cubic inches.Well maybe nitrous.

I would be willing to bett that .080 piston is dished and giving about 8.0:1 compression under 76CC heads. Vortecs will be about 9.0:1 which means he can still run pump gas Reg 87 or mid depending on tune and cam. I thought he said something early on in th epost about needing an intake? Main reason why I have been talking vortec. He will save a considerable amount by not having to purchace an intake for stock type or vortec heads if this is the case. If he buys one of those barn engines, patch the old one togther and start saving money and buying parts to build the next one using the barn engine block.

Originally posted by Joe Harrison:
I would be willing to bett that .080 piston is dished and giving about 8.0:1 compression under 76CC heads. Vortecs will be about 9.0:1 which means he can still run pump gas Reg 87 or mid depending on tune and cam. I thought he said something early on in th epost about needing an intake? Main reason why I have been talking vortec. He will save a considerable amount by not having to purchace an intake for stock type or vortec heads if this is the case. If he buys one of those barn engines, patch the old one togther and start saving money and buying parts to build the next one using the barn engine block. I was kind of surprised, the pistons are only slightly dished and are pretty close to flat. I am planning on buying an intake, but I also got a call today from another guy in the club offering a free alum. intake. I am going to check it out and see what it is. I just really like the look of the stock valve covers. As far as the next engine goes, it will probably be the 350 bored .30 over with vortec heads. But that will have to wait until I have some more $$$.

Thanks for all the help guys.

There are adapters to use your valve covers on centerbolt heads. They are about $100.

Let's look at it this way, a two barrel, 210hp/327 motor with 70 cc or so 1.72"/1.50" small valve heads became a 275hp/327 with just a set of 1.94"/1.50" valve double-hump medium heads and a stock four barrel!!

pdq67 I couldn't agree more, Paul, on this one. Not long ago, I found 327-210 heads on my L30... I replaced them with 72cc Dart Iron Eagle 180's, and the power increase was simply UNBELIEVABLE! I haven't dyno'd it, and who really knows what 100hp feels like, but I gotta believe on my original combo, these heads were worth 100hp The increase is ALL thru the rpm range. Less slipping the clutch starting out, turning the tires from a roll, ability to do massive burnouts where I couldn't even break em loose at all before, 1000 more RPM's of usable power! Good heads MAKE an engine.

(As I said earlier with stock exhaust manifolds and small cam it doesnt matter much which heads you run.)We were comparing Hump heads to 882s or 441s.Form Chevyhiperformance cynlider head flow data base.462 head 1.94 in 1.5 ex. .300 lift in. 167cfm ex 116 cfm .400 198in 128ex , .500 212in 134ex. A 441 head 1.94 in 1.5 ex. .300 160 in cfm 112 ex, .400194in 127ex , .500 201in 136ex.The most difference is 10cfm on the intake and 4 on the exhaust.I was not comparong stock 2 barrel heads to aftermarket heads.If you take a 210 327 and change nothing but the heads you will not pick up 100hp.The 882s actually flow better than the 441s.

Plum- I think you're underestimating the functional increase in performance in a good quality, performance cast, FACTORY cylinder head. I'd equate it to the difference in a stock cam or performance cam or regular intake/carb combo vs a performance setup. Chevy made regular run of the mill heads and performance heads that were flow tested and rechambered for best possible flow. They may not be quite as good as a $1000 set of current aluminum heads but the difference between them and a stock set is still huge and quite noticable under throttle.

I am comparing apples to apples Hump heads to 882s.The flow bench numbers are very close.I had a 327 with 882s on it earlier this year I cahnged to another 327 with my original 462s same cam intake carb. exhaust and cam.Very little difference in the 2 engines if any at all.Both were flat top with .040 quench the 882 motor would run on 87 the hump head has to have 93.I realize the flow difference in the base heads and performance heads but there is more to it than heads. A 210hp 327 with a two barrel and 2" single exhaust is not going to pick up but a few horsepower with a head change only.Yes that motor went to a 275hp but you changed heads and doubled the size of the carb.My statements were based on a mild or stock street motor with exhaust manifolds.When you add headers and aluminum intakes and larger carbs. it changes everything.The 255 and 300 hp 350s were brought up also the change was 441s to 041 and daul exhaust.The exhaust was probable 30 hp. so the heads were only 15hp.

I bet Hobbes never thought his question would go this far.We have 1/2 as many posts as Hot Chick in bench racing and its all car stuff.PEACE,LOVE, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.

Originally posted by 67 Plum:
I bet Hobbes never thought his question would go this far.We have 1/2 as many posts as Hot Chick in bench racing and its all car stuff.PEACE,LOVE, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE. :D Same to you. This has been very informative and kind of entertaining! Thanks for all of your help guys. I will let you know how it turns out. graemlins/beers.gif

All pretty good info and discussion about heads that everyone can use. Decisions are always based on info and what you can afford. I look forward to hear what he has done and how it works out for him.


Hobbs you have to make sure you post what happens and what you went with.

Thanks
Joe

Plum, the example I put in earlier was simply to a: support Paul's statement, and B: really illustrate the difference between "bad" heads and "good" ones.

The motor is an all original stock cam L30, with headers, good exhuast, 4 bbl on aftermarket manifold.

The only change I made with the heads was swap a torker 2 for a perf rpm.

I'm not sure where all the stock heads looked at here stack up in comparison, or how the late model smog heads compare, somewhere in between most likely. I really just wanted to show the impact of good heads on a motor that allready had all the typical boltons.

and for sure let us knw your results, hobbes?

Ditto!! pdq67 here..

And Merry Christams..

one more thought,
you can pick up a knock off vortec rpm manifold on ebay and a set of stock center bolt valve covers for under a hundred bucks.i havent personally tried one of these manifolds,but they seem to be edelbrock clones.anyone tried one?you could run the stocker covers til you could find a set of adapters(which i have seen go for $60)and add jim m's 500 buck vortecs to sail in under $630.
gotta stand by jim m and travis on this thread,good heads won't hurt a stock motor but will definately be the key if you get bitten by the h/p bug!(i know,that'll never happen!) :rolleyes:
what ever you decide,best of luck,and
Merry Christmas!
Eric B