After careful consideration, I am going to run a smaller roller cam in my 396. The engine is .030 over 10.25 to 1 comp, 290 closed chambers, 2.19/1.88" Manley Race Flo valves, extensively ported, Isky solid roller: 290/290 adv duration, 248/248 @ .050" .620/.620" lift, 108 lobe sep, installed straight up. Accel distributor, 2 in Hooker Comp headers(may be changing to a 1 7/8" Flow Tech ceramic coated headers, 800 cfm double pumper, 2 1/2" exhaust dumped at the rear with Dynomax Super Turbos. I am going to add a 3 in system as soon as I can. I have both intakes. The trans is a built TH400 with a TCI 3500 rpm stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi. What would give me maximum performance. If I can get this thing to hook, do you think I could get into the 11's, or low 7 sec qtr. mile?

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

Victor Jr.


------------------
Everett 68/350/PG/11.90/115mph

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everett#2390:
Victor Jr.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that.

vic jr for cool factor and slightly (probably about 10) more hp

perf rpm for faster 1/4 mile.

Didn't carcraft have a bigblock test about a year ago that made 10less hp but 20ft/lbs more torque using a performer rpm than a vic. And that was on a 454.

Use the Dual plane. You want as much torque as you can with the 402 you have going especially since they have been "extensively ported"
I don`t think Flow Tech makes a 1 7/8" header. Besides there probably wouldn`t be enough of a change to make much difference in performance, 1 7/8`s headers are $$$.
1 3/4" will work just fine.
With some finesse you might see 11`s

------------------
78 Camaro hyd cam 406
TH350-3.23 gear
11.86 ET
116.7 MPH

Being a relocated Iowan, I still suggest the Victor Jr. manifold.

Only because 1. 108 deg ctrline, very peaky, 2. it's setup for the strip.

Yeah, yeah, I know, 3.90 gear, but, RPM would be good for the street, but, not with 108 deg cam. I believe the manifold would be the limiting factor. If he changed to a 112-114 deg cam, then, yes, RPM all the way.

My 2 cents, 1944 steel pennies...

Everett

Victor Jr or Team G

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everett#2390:
Being a relocated Iowan, I still suggest the Victor Jr. manifold.

Only because 1. 108 deg ctrline, very peaky, 2. it's setup for the strip.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everett...A 108 SEP is a perfect candidate for a Dual Plane. The signal would be stronger for street driving on the very bottom. With that stroke IMHO 108 is a good choice.
If anything, the converter is maybe a tad too loose.
A tight 8 inch would do it



Everett[/QUOTE]



------------------
78 Camaro hyd cam 406
TH350-3.23 gear
11.86 ET
116.7 MPH

P.S. I didn`t mean to put that in bold
sorry `bout that http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

No problem, Big Red.

I'm reviewing your suggestion and digesting it.

I'm open-minded about it. Let's see if it works.

My beliefs with a 108 dg cam, peaky. Really low vacuum at lower rpm's. Wider cams, typ 112-114 deg, better vacuum at lower rpm's, RPM manifold would work well.

Could be a better choice, little tighter convertor would make more momentum lower, maybe move car (mass) quicker, be more impressive. Might work!!

Everett

Is my TCI stall too loose of a converter? I have used them before, and I thought they worked real well, but they do seem to slip quite a bit.

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

Thanks guys, for all the imput. It looks like the majority is for the Victor JR. I am glad because I just bought one a couple of months ago. I am glad to hear I can run it. In my opinion, I think both intakes would work well, I just wondered what everyone else thought. The RPM would give me more torque, for the street, but I don't imagine I need anymore torque as I would never be able to hook up. As for the stall issue, is my stall too loose? Thanks for all your help

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

Dual plane you have a 396 and only a 3500 convertor. my old Super Street car went faster with a dual plane and it weighted 3000lbs with me in it and had a 5000 convertor.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 69Man:
Thanks guys, for all the imput. It looks like the majority is for the Victor JR. I AM GLAD BECAUSE I JUST BOUGHT ONE A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. I am glad to hear I can run it.

Jeremy, not that I'm picking on you but your post is typical of why most ask advice and what most are hoping to recieve.

You see more often than not those asking for advice, really don't want advice at all but rather are looking for those that will agree with what they've already made their mind up about.


The RPM would give me more torque, for the street, but I don't imagine I need anymore torque as I would never be able to hook up.

NOTHING could be further from the truth ESPECIALLY if you're looking to run 11's n/a.

Your question was "What would give me maximum performance" and with all due respect to the others that replied, BigRed and oger have it RIGHT!!

Oh and just incase you're interested, on my own ride running 10 second ET's I run a DUAL PLANE and I can assure you I make far more torque than your 402!!

IF quick ET's are your goals with a heavy n/a street car, it's ALL about 60 foot and that comes by way of TORQUE!!!!!!

The "MAJORITY" of guys running their street cars at the track can't fall out of a tree but they've got all the go fast goodies like single plane manifolds, Dominator carb, aluminum big port heads, etc. and are left scatching their heads when they see my ride run with this nearly stock appearing engine under the hood!

Just check the links below.

Do you want to run quick and faster than most OR just look fast?

BTW, that's a pretty big roller cam for only 402 cubes and at best 10.25:1(I suspect less) in a street car and will require 7000 RPM shifts for best ET's! http://www.camaros.net/forum/eek.gif

Is the rest of your motor/driveline up to the task of 7000+ RPM?

I run a smaller roller, have more compression and 66 more cubes as well.

Not to mention your converter is junk and your headers are too big IF quick ET's and running deep in the 11's are your goal.

BUT, YOU knew all this already as I've told you this 1 month ago www.camaros.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/004986.html (http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum4/HTML/004986.html)

Apparently, I can't help you.

You must believe either you know better or those advising you, know better.

Not to worry, you're in good company and it's this same group that come up to me often at the track asking how I run soooo quick with such a mild combo.

Good luck.


------------------
racer's '68 Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/racer1320-launch5.jpg)


BSE POWER (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/racer1320-engine3)

10.48 @ 124.61MPH n/a pump gas 468
1.37 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 07-29-2002).]

69man, Your basic combo is fine. Cams can be changed intakes are easy and yes your convertor may be a problem. But your heads and short block are perfect.

Ed, i was surprised not to see you at englishtown this past sunday. There was bracket racing, Quick 8 heads up and nostalgia funny cars. I keep my eyes peeled for a 4000lb red chevy that runs 10's, but found none http://www.camaros.net/forum/frown.gif.
Whens the next time your planning on going down there.
(just incase this seems confusing, i'm clutchin'Camaro from the dragraceresults forum).

What converter should I run? I haven't bought the camshaft yet, so what do you think would be optimum? Like I said, I have BOTH intakes, so I can run either. I will admit, that I don't know much about drag racing a street/strip car, I just know how to make them run hard enough to get me by. If anyone is willing to help me, I would be greatful. I can run a smaller cam if the Isky I mentioned is too big. I am running 325/350 hp replacement forged domed pistons, with the block slightly decked. The 290's are 101 cc, I think. They have also been milled down, and the combustion chambers have been all equalized, but I haven't picked them up yet, so I don't know what the exact cc they are. My bottom end is balanced, line bored, factory steel crank, stock, resized rods, with ARP rod bolts. All my parts in the heads should hold up to any combo I want to run. As I stated before in my first post, I do have both intakes and I will run the one that will give me the most power. The majority said that the single plane would be the way to go. I assumed this would work well, but now I have others telling me to not use it..... What should I do? Harold at Ultradyne recommended a larger camshaft than anyone I have talked to. My budget is going over the top, if I have to buy a new converter, but if mine is junk, I guess I will replace it. I didn't know TCI was junk. I know alot of guys that run this same converter with no problems. I am assuming that I need an ATI converter that everyone on the Team Chevelle site runs. It seems to get the most praise. I don't know more than the average weekend racer that is why I ask for help. Ed, why not help me than criticize me, I take your info into great consideration and I feel kind of insulted when I get a reply like this. You do know alot more than me or the average bracket racer, so I like to hear from you. I tried to reply to the post earlier a month ago, and no reply from you.

I had a almost stock big block with a solid cam in my Camaro to begin with, with a 4 speed, I could not hook it on the street at all. I figured with the power I am throwing at it, a single plane would take some of the torque down low away for a little more traction, if any. I didn't have any traction devices. I do have a set of subframe connectors, but not installed yet. I plan on running a good set of either Cal Trac or SSM traction bars, and maybe a set of drag shocks. I have heard drag shocks don't work very well on the street. I am in the market for a new set of headers, and the only reason I bought the 2 in Hooker, is that was the smallest they made. I will look into a set of 1 3/4", or 1 7/8" header.

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

I would start with the performer rpm and work on traction/weight transfer.

Port match it, reduce the divider a little and try a 1" spacer.

If you can't make 60foot times improve, then consider cutting back on launch torque. Not b4.

Jeremy,

Don't worry about Ed's remarks. I've seen his posts at other sites and it's quite clear that he is more interested putting others down and bragging about himself than he is in helping. He must be using these boards in an attempt to bring some excitement into his life. If you've got both intakes why not try them both? There are really too many engine parameters that can influence manifold selection. I've seen dragstrip comparisons where the dual plane ran the quicker ET and vice-versa. When I picked my cam I all I heard is it's better to go too small than too big. Maybe that's true, but let me tell you from experience it's better to have the perfect cam than one that's too small!

Good luck,

Chris

Jeremy,
I have to agree with Chris on that one. There really is only one way to find out which intake is going to work best and that is test them both at the strip. Not even a chassis dyno can predict which one will work better in a real world situation. Give each intake a chance by properly matching the ports and just see which one works better then go with that one. Granted it's a pain in the neck but truly fast cars are not dialed in a day. Cheers

------------------
New skool is cool but a 509 and 4 speed still rulz :)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 69Man:
Ed, why not help me than criticize me, I take your info into great consideration.

You do know alot more than me or the average bracket racer, so I like to hear from you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Jeremy, I have attempted to HELP you but it would seem my advice is falling on deaf ears which is fine, it's your car, money and time.

However then don't feel insulted when I state the obvious!

I'm the guy that tells you what you NEED to know, NOT what you want to hear!

My advice is available to ANYONE that wants it.

All they and you have to do is ask for it or use the search function over at TEAM CHEVELLE and read the 2000+ posts that provides track proven advice and guarenteed results complied from thousands of 1/4 mile passes and years of testing and tuning, of which many such tests results were A-B-A under controlled conditions.


Fuji, you're inmaturity shines brightly. Fortunately, one day when you grow up you'll think differently!

My remarks weren't a put down nor meant to brag about my accomplishments and frankly I'm far more interested in how my peers(read NHRA Stock Eliminator racers and journeyman bracket racers) view my performance than those I encounter on the internet.

As to your comment of "using these boards in an attempt to bring some excitement into his life", I think not.

That is unless you view my weekly racing program, career and job that amongst other things called upon me to help cooordinate/participated in the search/rescue and recovery from ground zero(read world trade center) from day 2 as someone in need of some excitement!

Add to that the excitement I get from my wife and two young children.

It's pretty clear, I've got ALL the excitement I need!!!

Not only that but posting on these boards and answering the hundreds of emails I've recieved takes alot of time away from doing things that bring far more excitement

I've encounter a few just like you that have a lot to say not about the subject/topic at hand but rather about the poster and resort to personal attacks that I can assure you would never be said to my face while others feel compelled to dispute my advice and claims but have NOTHING to back it nor any personal relative experience to call upon, other than hearsay, rumor, speculation, conjecture and references to magazine articles, desk top dyno, some local self proclaimed expert and what Vizard wrote!

Statements like your..."I've only raced about 5 times and I'm gaining a fast appreciation for the skill and knowledge it takes to run quick ET's"

and "I've seen dragstrip comparisons(meaning you've read in a magazine) where the dual plane ran the quicker ET and vice-versa"

and finally "let me tell you from experience it's better to have the perfect cam than one that's too small!!

Say it all.

REALLY? WHAT EXPERIENCE?


Jeremy, I can assure you that your cam and headers are too big and your converter is marginal at best as it relates to a heavy street/strip car where throttle response, street manners and drivability are of importance as well as quick ET's and YOU WILL NOT RUN QUICKER WITH A SINGLE PLANE MANIFOLD IF you did a back to back to back test(A-B-A) on the same day, under the same track and atmospheric conditions!!!

The combo as it stands just may hit high 11's if you can hook and under the right atmospheric conditions BUT under the same conditions if you were to follow my advice you'll run SEVERAL TENTHS quicker!

You decide what's right for YOU.

Nuff said!


CNc, I'm there only on points days of which the next is this Sunday 8/4.



------------------
racer's '68 Chevelle (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/racer1320-launch5.jpg)


BSE POWER (http://www.chevelles.com/showroom/racer1320-engine3)

10.48 @ 124.61MPH n/a pump gas 468
1.37 60 foot
3900 lbs.



[This message has been edited by racer1320 (edited 07-30-2002).]

Go easy guys. It's alot easier to catch bears with honey than vinegar. You might want to check my post in the BSE Power thread.

John

Ed, not to argue with you, but I did downsize in camshafts. Apparently I didn't go down far enough which is fine. I haven't bought the camshaft yet, and my original one that I did purchase from Erson was:

294/302 adv. duration
254/260 @ .050"
.629/.629" lift w/1.7 rockers
108 lobe sep
The one I selected from Isky is much smaller than this one.

I am wanting to buy new headers, as I stated in my post. I am looking into a set of 1 3/4 and a set of 1 7/8". 1 3/4 would be optimum that is probably what I will buy, if I find a set for a CAMARO.

I am not ignoring you at all. I am trying, and you must not want to listen to me, because I have asked for help a few times now. I have listened to you, that is why I want to get this right. Obviously my camshaft selection wasn't to your liking, but you haven't recommended me a cam or where to find one.

Thanks everyone for all the replies, and keep them coming. I have gained knowledge from everyone, and enjoy reading everyones reply. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

i heard this one works pretty good: Comp Cams street roller 238/244 dur, .640/.646" lift, 108LSA. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif
With CROWER SEVERE DUTY ROLLER LIFTERS!
Ed might suggest one smaller yet, becuase it's a 396, but he's the man to listen to IMO.
Ed uses 1-3/4" Dynomax headers fitted with flowmaster scavenger collectors #C-134214300
To a 3-1/2" crossover x-pipe and 3" tailpipes, with dynomax Oval racemagnum mufflers in the stock location.
All bends should be over mandrel.

The answer seems pretty clear to me. Since you already own both, then try both and see for yourself which suites your combination the best.

I would try the Performer RPM first and spend quite a bit of time tuning and tweaking it to find out how quick you can get your car to run with it. If you only race occassionally, you may need to devote half the season with it before you make the change. This may mean you need to go out maybe 4 or 5 times to the track till the car is tweaked to it's peak potential. If your a rookie tuner, it may take even more trips to the track then that...be patient as gains will likely be small and sometimes difficult to notice. Once you hit a wall with no improvement, then change to the vic jr.

That being said, you need to take real good records of all the conditions as you race, especially the air temp, barometer, and humidity so you can calculate the density altitude to compare runs from different days. Without such scientific record keeping, your testing will be flawed and the results will be inconclusive.

I myself run a Vic jr on my lil rat and plan to test a RPM dual plane either this fall or next spring...I'm betting the improved torque of the dual plane is worth ET. Both Edelbrock and my local machine shop recommended the single plane, but there's nobody stopping me from trying soemthing different.

Give the swap a try...won't cost you anything other than gaskets and your time...just make sure you record every condition you can and make the test as scientific as possible for the best results.

BTW, when tunign at the track, make only one change at a time and always make at least 1 back up pass to verify the change either worked or didn't. Also, don't make large changes...rather small tweaks will be easier to keep track of. If you make too many changes at once, you can easily become lost in your tuning and have a difficult time telling if the change was helpful or not.
------------------
Malibu Motorsports (http://www.malibumotorsports.cjb.net)
1979 Malibu, 414 ci bbc, 3500 lbs
6.74 @ 101 mph 1/8 mile
10.66 @ 125 mph 1/4 mile
1.48 60' on a 9" tire
No Baby Bottle Needed!!!
BSE Power

[This message has been edited by Slowazzbu (edited 07-31-2002).]

Todd, thanks for the imput. I don't have any access to a weather station, how do you keep track of all the track conditions? Do you have a pocket barometer, etc. I don't know if they even make them, that is why I am asking. I will run race slicks, when I go, so I hope traction won't be a factor. I hope to make it to the 1/8 mile this year before they close, but my machinist is trying to screw me in my opinion, and I am undecided on what to do about heads now. I bought the Victor JR brand new, so I can send that back if I need to. I can run both intakes, that would give me the answer I am looking for. Do you think tuning on a single plane would be much different than a dual plane? Also if you don't mind me asking what solid roller are you running? Is it the same as Ed's? I don't know how much lift I can run as with running closed chamber heads, and domed pistons, my piston to valve clearance may be very thin. Thanks alot for your help. Keep all the good ideas coming. Lord knows I need the help. Small blocks are so much easier to build a good combo. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi

Todd, what size of headers are you using?

------------------
Jeremy Mc.
69 Camaro
Roller 396, TH400, 3500 stall, 3.90 12 bolt posi