Just bought 69 camaro with a 350/300 block and junk heads , it has 410 gears, 3000 stall, victor jr, BG 650 DP, 1.5 rollers. It has dome pistons, unsure of comp ratio 10 or 11. Thinking of upgrading the heads to dart iron eagle 72cc 165 with 202/160. What would be a good cam for this set up? The car will be driven on weekends and a trip to the track every once in a while. Thanks for any help.

dart is a great head but you must find out how many cc chamber your head is now so you can mill the new heads to the same or a little less for more compresson. cam selection be carful, match the springs to the cam and make sure your piston to valve clearence is good you might need some help on that issue. mike

First off make sure that the engine realy has pop up pistons unless you witnessed the engine being put togather.Never believe the sellor.Don't buy anything till you are 100% sure of it.

In the long run you will be better off purchasing a set of heads with smaller combustion chambers and and slightly larger ports.
With 4.10's, 3000 stall, and a victor JR on a 350 I believe you are in the realm of at least a 180cc cylinder head port.

Next get pistons to achieve the compression you want.Smaller combustion chambers promote a better combustion process and make better power.Even if you have to use a piston with a slight dish.
The pop up dome interfers with the flame path killing a bit of power.
You don't mind me spending your money do you :D

[ 09-07-2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: mutant 68 ]

The current heads are 76cc. I talked to a guy today and he also recommended the dart 72cc 180 runner. The pistons are dome for sure. I came up with 150 thousands from the base of the piston to the top of the dome. Anyone know what comp that might be? I think I'm going to go with the comp 292h or lunati 515 lift 300 duration. Any comments? How much compession can you run and still use pump gas? Thanks for the help.

With a cam like the 292 Magnum you should be able to get away with 10.5, possibly a little higher.The 292 has a nice rumpity idle :cool:

The duration of the cam leaves the valves open longer effectively letting compression escape out the exhaust.

Don't be fooled by someone stating 9.5 is the most for the street.That is old and uniformed thinking.
Most of the compression choice depends on the cam being selected.I say most because there are other factors at work here.

If you are interested in learning more about what cam to use with what compression take a look at Pat Kelly's web site here http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/
Very informative.

The 292 Magnum "Can" be used with a 3000 stall but it is realy a much happier camper with a 3500+ converter due to it's lack of torque down low.If you realy want something this big consider a solid grind.It will prove to be a better performer in all areas.You may have noticed that I skipped right over the Lunati cam.This is because I think it is clearly too big.

[ 09-09-2003, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: mutant 68 ]

The cam I just pulled out was a comp solid 248/248 525/525 and it looked fairly new. I was thinking of going with the hydraulic for less maintance.The other comp cam I was looking at was the 284/296 507/510 rpm range 2300-6500. Do solids really perform that much better? Thanks for all your help.

i have a set of dart iron eagles with 180cc intake runners and 64 cc chambers with manley valves,ARP studs, comp cams guide plates and springs (981) these have 300 miles on them. $900 new i'll sell for $600. i even have the origional boxes and bags they came in.

e-mail me for pic's if your interested

mike 1978 That sounds pretty good. What will the 64cc do to my comp though? You can email pics to moldkillers@aol.com Robert

You may seriously want to consider aluminum heads with the compression you are playing with (if you want to run pump gas). You are right on the ragged edge with compression, if you are 10.5 -1 with 76cc, and you drop to 72cc I think you will be out of range for pump gas with iron heads. Do your research before you buy heads. If you plan on running race fuel or a mix then you will be fine with iron heads. My opinion is you will be flirting with detonation if you run iron heads (detonation will destroy an engine in a very short time). This is my opinion, anyone?

A solid makes more torque down low so you can use more duration before the low end torque becomes nil.
In a SB 350 you realy shouldn't run a HYD cam with more than 236 duration on the intake at .050 with that 3000 converter.
The reason is that the low RPM torque drops off alot is because of the low cubic inches.With a somewhat tight converter like a 3000 it becomes even worse because you are now forcing the engine to operate in a lower RPM range, where it realy isn't that happy.Granted it will work.It's just not that hot of a match.

The Exreme 284H that you mentioned would be better than the 292 Magnum for your stall and some street driving.I'm not sure about the compression though.It might raise it out of reach with pump gas.

You realy need to get the speck's on your engine.Collect a list of parts including thier speck's.
Then input the different combinations into the DCR calculator on Pat's page.It will take a lot of the guess work out of the equasion.Try it you won't be sory.Pat Kellys Page http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/

Sounds like you pulled out a 294 Magnum solid.I think I would check the lift with a mike to see what kind of lift is left on it.Also visualy inspect each lobe for any signs of a flat spot.If it isn't too bad slap the sucker back in.
Purchase some heads and get a bigger carb, like a Holley 750HP.It is VERY important to provide enough fuel for the engine when you are running higher compression on pump gas.It will help ward off detonation.

[ 09-09-2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: mutant 68 ]

The part # on the cam I pulled out was 294S and like I said it looked really good, I will mike it to make sure. The only reason I was trying to get away from the solid is so I wouldnt have to adjust all the time.
Getting back to the pistons and compression ratio, does anyone have an estimate of what they might be?
I really want this to be a street car and run on pump gas. I am trying to leave the lower end in place. I guess if I hae to tone down the stall to accomadate a smaller cam I can install a 11" Thanks again for all of your input.

RD,
By going to a smaller cam and lower stall you will only add to the possibilty of detonation. You really need to figure out your compression ratio. How big is the dome on the pistons? Is it actually a dome or a pop up? How far down in the hole are they? (with the piston at TDC how far below the top of the block is the flat portion of the piston). If you measure that and the dome (I think you said .100 pop up). We should be able to get a pretty close estimate on your compression ratio. Quench is also very important when trying to build a pump gas engine. Take your time and do the research, before you spend any money. Can you see any numbers on the pistons?

You shouldn't have to adjust a solid "all the time". I run the 294s and rarely does it NEED adjusting. I check it every so often and it just doesn't typically need adjustments.

Good valvetrain parts and poly locks will keep you from having to adjust a solid cam. I've checked mine twice this summer and it really didn't need any adjustments the first time, the second time they were all a hair loose, but that was after putting 800 freeway miles on the car at 3000-3500 RPM in one weekend. Even then, I could have just left it alone but I am kind of anal about these things. ;)

my friend with a 68 vert ( who's on here somewhere) has 10.5 -1 with iron heads. and it runs great with no detionation on premium. He has a 110 LSA and that helps, but he's definatly at the max.

There are no numbers on the pistons. From the base of the piston to the top of the dome is .150 with the piston at tdc I came up with .035 from the top of the block to the flat portion. What do you mean by how far in the hole? With the piston at its lowest point to the top of the block is 3.5 inches. I hope you can help with this info. As far as the solid cam, Im not opposed to using it. If you only had to adjust approx every 800 miles or so I can live with that. As far as the valve train what the car came with is comp hi tech pushrods wall thickness of .080 4130 tubing, scorpion 1.5 roller rockers with poly locs, erson guide plates. Again thanks for all the help.

Bore 4.00
Stroke 3.50
Deck Height .035
Gasket Thickness .041
Combustion Chamber (cc's) 76
Valve Reliefs (cc's) -20 (guess)

Compression ratio 11.06 - 1

Since I do not know the cc's of the dome on your piston I estimated. Also you didn't say if you were bored over and how much (that makes a difference). With a stroke of 3.48 you are at 11.00 - 1. Reducing the dome to -10 cc outs you at 9.78 - 1 (3.48 stroke) and 9.83 - 1 with a 3.50" stroke. There are still too many variables to get an accurate ratio. We have to know how many cc's your domes are, how thick of head gasket, how big the valve reliefs are (in cc's), what size bore. From what you have listed I would guess you are between 10-1 and 11.2 - 1. Now if you change the heads to 72cc (from 76cc) you are going to raise the compression almost .5, if you go to 64cc you are looking at raising compression about 1.5 over the 76cc heads. As you can see you need to know exactly what you are dealing with before you buy heads. I doubt in any case you could run a 64cc iron head and get away with pump gas (with those pistons). As someone mentioned above you may be money ahead to go to a flat top piston, if you don't want to do thatI would suggest a 72cc aluminum head. Did it run on pump gas with the 76cc iron heads? If so it should be fine with the 72cc aluminum that is about .5 more compression with all things equal. What I meant by in the hole is the deck height. You abswered that. Sorry I can give you a concrete compression ratio but, there are too many variables.

The block is actually .030 over. I had the car delievered to my house and only drove it one time from my house to my storage where I started tearing it apart. It did run well, in fact it was pretty fast. I want to put the car together right the first time. If I were to change the pistons, what would be the way to go? Has anyone used the holley or edelbrock head,intake.cam kit? The advertise 425hp with a 10 to 1 compression. I would be really happy if my car could run in the 12's. Like I said its just going to be a weekend toy. Thanks ror all of your help. You guys have been a big help.

I wouldnt get too crazy on the cam if you just want 425hp. Something in the 230s dur. (Comp 230/236) should be plenty, with aftermarket heads, while staying real streetable - also 425hp should run high 11s in a well set up car, if its not heavy.
You on the south side of Houston?
Ever go to the Fox & Hound car show on Sat. nights?

If you are going to change the pistons, I would go with flat top pistons. As far as the performance packages, I guess they are ok. I have never used one personally. There are definetly better heads out there than edelbrock and holley (not that they are terrible) but, if I am spending that king of money I want a better head. Getting into the 12's shouldn't be a problem. There is a lot of information on this site and a lot of guys that know their stuff. To me it sounds like you have everything you need to reach your goal. The car should have run in the 12's the way it sat (3000 stall, 4.10's, Vic Jr and a decent cam). If anything a I would suggest a 750 cfm carb. Since we now know your goal, why not just buy a set of 72cc decent (Dart, trick flow, AFR,Pro Topline) aluminum heads and call it good. That should put you in the 12's on pump gas. This would be the cheapest and easiest way to go in my opinion. As for the cam I would also choose a solid flat tappet cam. Keep the Vic Jr and head to the track, get a baseline and start playing from there (an Edelbrock RPM might perform better on your combo, but it might not) only one way to find out. Don't spend a lot of un needed cash, you don't have to in order to reach your goal. Trust me you will spend enough anyway.

I think Im going to order the dart 72cc 180 heads and run the cam I pulled out and hope for the best. I go to fox and hound every weekend. What do you drive I will look for you this weekend. Robert

Silver 67 RS w/black nose stripe, 4" cowl, Bogart Wheels - runners, Hoosiers, 4" ehxaust - healthy sound! (+ exh. leak :mad: )
See ya graemlins/waving.gif (unless it rains)
Rafel

That will get you to the 12's fairly cheaply smile.gif

It is getting fairly well known around here and on other boards not to purchase heads as a package deal with valves and springs from a place like Jegg's or Summit.

The reason is that they do a rather shotty job of grinding the valves and there will probably be some that won't even seal from the get-go.You will not be happy.

You should purchase them from a known "REPUTABLE" engine builder in your area and have him assemble them.This will probably cost a bit more but by the time you compare the cost of a set of heads from Jegg's that need a second valve job to a set done right the first time...It becomes a no brainer.Also have him do what is called a "Pocket Port and Gasket Match" to a Fel-Pro 1205 gasket.

This porting is worth the money and will pay off.It costs around 300-400 bucks around here with a valve job.

I still think you will need more cfm, like a Newer Holley HP Series 750 Double pumper.

What are you using for a distributor, coil, ignition box, and wires?

[ 09-11-2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: mutant 68 ]

Thanks for the tip ! I was going to order them from that dirttrack guy on ebay. Ive already talked to him and he will sell the heads outside of an auction. But I got a name of head shop from a friend of mine, Ill talk to him and see what he can do.
I am running a msd pro billet, msd 6a box. msd 8.5 , and blaster 2.
I hope it runs as well as all you guys think. If it does Ill have a smile from ear to ear.
See ya tomarrow night wheather permitting. Robert

Right on, sounds good.
Sounds like you have the ignition under controll.
12's are on their way smile.gif

RDemaret, I am not sure if you are sold on a given brand of head or not? After researching and asking many questions from my local speed shop guy's I went with the Dart Pro 1 heads. Although I went with the 215 cc intake and 72 cc chamber (on a .040 383cid), I think the 200 cc intake 72cc chamber heads would work well with your combo. I paid $1,200 for the heads assembled with guide plates from my local speed shop. I would imagine that you could find them for the same cost locally there as well. My piston's are similar to yours and yield about 11.2:1 compression. I have one advantage though, I live at 6,500 ft above sea level and we can put a little more compression in up here. With the cam that you have, you should be able to get by as everyone else has said. As far as the solid cam, you will not have to adjust that often if you use good locks nuts. One thing about solids to clear things is that you can do so much more with a solid because of the lack of take up that a hydraulic has. Faster entry and exits on the open and closing events allowing more hp and tq with a smaller base.

Hope this info helps
Best of luck,
Tom