Hello Larry!

I am planning converting 69 camaro for LT1 and sixspeed. have you done these swaps ?

If so would you like to help me.Can you point what to look and to avoid any troubles.
? i would prefer aluminium head engine.I am going to get it fron gm sport salvage.
thanks Joni

Hi Joni,

Yes I have done these engines in many different kinds of cars and trucks.

I don't know if you prefer air cond where you are or not but if you want A.C. the compressor on the Trans Am,Camaro engines will not clear the frame on 1st gen cars.If you don't want A.C.,G.M. makes the pulley/bracket to replace compressor,and use the orig belt.If you prefer A.C. you need the Vette engine that has different brackets and compressor location.

If you are set on the 6 spd trans the clutch set up on the LT1 is hydraulic, and the 1st gen cars have mechanical clutch. If you get the complete set up the clutch master cylinder will need to work off the orignal pedal,some thinking and fabrication will be needed.

Decide if you want to go with auto,or 6 spd trans before you get your eng/trans set up,because the harness is different.

Speaking of harnesses I use the orig G.M. harness,as some of the after market harness are $800.00 or so. The harness looks hard but its not that bad.I pull out the wires needed to do the things like;fuel pump,ele smog pump,lock up converter,ect.

You need some relays also to do the fuel pump and some other stuff.Get them used also off of like Pont 6000 cars.

You need an after market fuel pump I'll get you the part # later,at least 60+ psi.

I use the orig LT1 ex manifolds on the Camaro as they seem to breathe really well.If your engine is 96 or later(I think it's the left side)ex manifold has a ex-large flange where the pipe bolts on. Some people modify the flange to the smaller size,but the 93/95 manifold come the right size.

I am going to sign off for now and think some more,because AT&T has cut me off 3 times now.

Larry

Hi Joni,

I saw your post in the other section,and you said something about a 93 model engine.

When all this started people wanted the 93 engines because they didn't have the mass air flow meter,and the install looked cleaner.

My opinion is that the 93 has 4-22 pin connectors on the ECM,where the 94 up engines have 4-32 pin connectors. Yes the later is more complex to hook up but the later engines have sequencial fired injectors. This means that the injector fires the fuel in just when it needs to.

I have read reports saying there is no evidence of H.P. change either way. I have installed both types and I feel that the efficency and responce is better on the later sequencial engines.

As G.M. has done things over the years, like the 700R4 it has gotten better with time and I think the F.I. systems are better. It only stands to reason that the ECM with 40 more pins/wires would have more functions avaliable.

I guess since I have mentioned the 700R4 I will say this, The 4L60E trans which is a electronic/computer operated 700R4 is in my opinion the BEST choise for the trans,plus simpler install.

If you should ever want to install a hotter cam the later engines w/ mass air flow are not affected as much with lower vacuum as the engine w/ M.A.P. only (manifold absolute pressure).

Larry

Knock Knock, any one home?

Larry

Thank you Larry for your infomative response!! Iam sorruy but i could not respond you sooner becouse i have email only from my work and we have al lest 8 hours time delay because iam from Finland! i hope you understandYou sure had a lot of information. I am sorry not to specify what im looking for in my first emai,but i want 6 speed,no aircondition and i think i can modify the hudraulic clutch to work,if its
not too difficult.
Yes you were right about the massair flow sensor thing,it looks ugly to me,but i have heard at it could be modified to work without it? converting to speed density? Is it raelly possible to make it work with gm computer? can i leave all emission staff away(like airpump/egr)?

thank you larry again,hope to hear from you soon!

Hey Joni,

Sorry I didn't mean to sound impatient, I was just messing around.

I took apart an eariler model ( 88 ) V6 -5 SPD car last week, and the master cylinder was mounted just under the brake booster at an angle so to miss the booster. It had a remote resovior for the brake fluid. The best thing to do is try to find a LT1 6 SPD car with all the parts still in place, and do some measuring so you can cut the hole in your fire wall in the right place.

Yes the G.M. computer can be made to function perfectly in the conversion. We will need to deal with the V.A.T.S. (vehicle,auto,thief,system). Some people send the ECM some where and get this burned out, but I prefer to make it function with hidden toggle switch. I have paid as much as $300.00 to get ECM reprogrammed,and VATS burned out.To make the VATS work I buy a box that was costing me $160.00,but the guy has had a company start building these and the last bunch I bought was $49.95 each and they seem to be working fine.So by using this box and a hidden switch the car will only start-die,start-die,and not keep running until the switch is turned on. Without the VATS box the engine will start-die until the box is installed.

All the emission stuff can be used,or deleted I don't see where any performance is lost in keeping it working though.

I am now in the process of researching the speed dinsity thing,there is a new link for these cars and I just havent had time to follow through on this, and check it out.

Go ahead and research the cost of engine,
trans, and let me know if this is for sure possible and I will try to continue with enough info to get you through this.

Larry

Thanks again Larry!! You seem to have all the information at doing this ! it makes me feel sure to start doing it!!!
OK ,i start looking what kind of options do ihave .i have to bay the engine/trans combo in certain salvage yard because my friend has a business near it in florida,that way he can check it out and take it for me!

i was wondering can you mail me direct,so i could get your personal email and liked to dicuss more and how i can make up all your help! my email is joni.kiurunen@kesko.fi
thanks Larry again!

Whee!
Sat down and had a long talk with the wife this weekend, and she (in theory) has agreed to let me get an LT-1/Tremec for my 67.

This raises its own group of questions though.. I see that the AC compressor is in the wrong place - is there a way to move it, or does this just end up being a non-AC car?

Also, when I go to find my motor/tranny, what other parts do I need? (pretty sure computer, wiring, fuel pump, but I'm sure there's other stuff I'm not thinking of). Anyone have a list? (Larry, you might need a website if you keep getting asked the same questions over and over - lnjstreetrods.com would appear to be open :)

Thanks, y'all.


------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 (Daily Driver)

Ping!

(sorry, but this got buried pretty quick)

------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 (Daily Driver)

Derekf,

My heart bleeds for you I am in Ft worth just a hop and a skip away.

Well here goes you guys, I want to use this thread to help others, and I am like Joe, and Mike, or who ever I just like cars and no I don't wear pennies in my penny loafers. Now if you haven't heard that commercial this don't make any sense.

Yes I am in the business of auto repair, up to now I have tried not to advertise in any way, just help. My shop is geared toward high performance, conversions (V8 Jaguar and more)street rods, and hipo automatic tran's.

I am still not here to advertise, but I do want some input from all who are interested in the LT1,s in any way.

I have installed at least 10 of these engines, and I never use after market harneses. I modify the factory harness, to work to it's full potential, run in closed loop, with the OBDII data link to scann the system if problems need checked.

The after market harneses are from, $500.00 to $800.00. If I take a car in after engine instillation, to only finish the wiring, it normaly cost from $500.00 up to complete the harness, make a new section of harness for all the relays, such as fan/or fans, fuel pump, smog pump, lock up tq conv, main ign system, and so on.

So here is what I want to here from on you on. What if I develop a do-it-yourself book, that has part #'s, where to and how to. What parts you can buy at the wrecking yard to save money, and a web site to discuss problems, or order stuff from.

Let me know if you would be interested in such a book and if so what should it sell for.

I only want to do this to get my 1950 LT1 Studebaker pickup off the back burner, we ALL know how hard it is sometimes to afford our projects.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Yeah, I knew you were in Ft Worth (we met before the last Ballpark swapmeet if you remember) :)

I personally would pay a premium for a book like that - although these days I try not to buy books that are over 30 dollars or so.

Website would also rock, have not found any websites that seem to really cover this kind of stuff. If you need help setting that up let me know; I ain't the best at it, but I'm free so it evens out.




------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 - now with 500,000 miles!(Daily Driver)

Also might like to see in such a book a section on the modifications that can/should be made to an LT1 before installing - cam changes, etc.

This might be outside the scope of the book though.

Derkf,

I thought that was you but wasn't sure thanks for the input, I'll just wait and see if anyone else has an opinion.

Larry

Well lets see if i can shed a different light on the subject.
So you want an LT1 without A/C in a 69 with a T56 six speed eh? Well here i go.
LT-1/T56 swap ideas:
I suggest finding a 67-69 Camaro/Firebird, or 68-72 Nova to perform the swap on, since I know that it will work on these chassis/bodies.
The next step is locating a 94 or newer LT1/T56 combo from a donor car. Camaro/Firebird versions will work, as well as Corvette, and even Impala’s. The only drawback to the impala motor is that it is not only a 2 bolt main, but is also iron headed, as opposed the the Camaro/Vette version with aluminum heads. The corvette version is my personal choice, both because of the 4-bolt main, and the location of the accessories. The Camaro/Firebird LT1 has the accessories mounted low (except the alternator) on the passenger side, and the Vette version has the accessories on the driver’s side, high up.
The problems for mounting the engine are as follows:
Camaro/Firebird LT-1’s will require an A/C delete pulley to clear the frame on these cars. ( GM part number 10115875 ) The compressor is mounted too low to use with out notching the frame rails. The alternative is the Vette, which will bolt in with no problems or modifications. I don’t recommend using the factory exhaust manifolds, but instead buy a set of good headers. I chose Hooker super comp headers with 1-5/8” primaries to a 3” collector. From there I welded up a collector-to-collector spacer that had a bung for the o2 sensor, so I wouldn’t mess up the expensive headers. (picture available on request)
As far a wiring up the motor I also don’t recommend trying to use the factory harness, but instead purchasing a high quality aftermarket harness from one of several companies. I used TPIS, but can also recommend, street and performance, Painless wiring, and Accel DFI. The only computer modification I had done was a PASS key disable. I would recommend getting the LT1 edit program if you retain the factory computer (unless you go with Accel’s DFI)
As for the T56, we know it came with LT1’s from the factory, and the set-up works well, so why mess with it. The starter clears the headers; the Flywheel and clutch work well, and there is no need for expensive custom bellhousings or exotic flywheels. What I did was retain all the factory settings, and purchased a bracket from an outside source. This bracket mounts on the 4 studs behind the brake booster, or master if you don’t run vacuum assisted brakes. It is angled at a 21-degree slope to match the firewall on the 93-97 Camaro/Firebird. The hydraulic clutch actuator mounts to this bracket with 2 bolts, and a pushrod goes through the stock clutch hole in the firewall. The pushrod is then mounted to the clutch pedal with an offset spacer that allows for full travel of the pushrod’s stroke.
NOTE: This is the only place where the Camaro T56 setup shines over the Corvette’s. The 92-96 vette used the ZF 6 speed, which is totally different, and I have no idea how to set that up in an older car.
The other end of the actuator goes in the T56 bellhousing and pulls the clutch off. Fairly simple, and the only welding is on the pedal spacer.
After the motor is in the car with headers, and accessories, install the flywheel then the clutch and flexplate. Then hoist the tranny into position and bolt the bellhousing to the block. Here is where most people get frustrated. There is no one that offers a pre built crossmember for this application. I AM WORKING ON ONE CURRENTLY. If you fab one up, you are doing well. The driveshaft will need to be shortened; I’ll get measurements soon. Then hook up the clutch actuator and engine wiring, and have fun. Oh yes, I forgot about the shifter hole. It will need to be moved 2” back for those of you with manuals, and cut from the location if you have an auto.
Any other questions can be directed to Tyler @ teetoe_jones@hotmail.com
So, i personally recommend buying the aftermarket harness, mine was 475 with all the relays and no exra wires. The pass key was also disabled by TPIS for 150 bucks. Pretty damn reasonable. If you guys are that interested, i'll complie a list of the things and p.n. used on my car, as well as sources for all of it. Let me know.



------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Hey Tyler,

I just want to say how much I appreciate your input and the knowledge of the 1st gen/LT1 marriage, this is just a killer way to have the best of both worlds. (HP/Mileage) You have shared things here that I just haven't had time to address and that is good. I also like your car and the installiation looks really good.

Has Hooker started making Super Comps for the 1st gen car with head flange plates to fit the LT1 "D" shaped ex port? If so what is that part #.

I guess the old saying, different strokes for different folks would seem propper here. I am not trying to be smart or opposed to your approch in how to go about this instilation, but I do have a different idea to share.

As for myself, and I think many of you will agree, if I can spend more time and less out of pocket money to do a project I must choose to spent the time.

The thing also here is not just the money issue but for the love of doing a car our self, that is what we want it to be and the pure pleasure of the since of accomplishment, and the pleasure of strutting down the street in something that many others don't have. But here is the problem, I don't have the money to go out and buy,LT1 edit programs, Accel DRI, or hi dollar after market harnesses.

So here is my idea, when you buy most any LT1 it comes with the computer, and the GM harness.Why not spend some time on the factory harness, pull out the wires necessary to make this harness work, go to the wrecking yard and buy some used relays that no one want any more any way (cheap)and spend the money saved here on something else.

There is also now an anti thieft box (vat) for about 1/3 the cost of reprogram stuff, and it only has 3 wires to hook up and 2 of those are, pos/neg. You can also use a hidden switch on any of the 3 wires and make the VAT work for your protection.

I will close for now in saying please don't misunderstand I am not being smart in any way at all, I just know I have a family, and bill's and other things to consider, and if I can find a way to save money on my projects I must or let them wait longer to get done, and I want to drive it rite now!!! don't you.

Your's truly Andy Rooney, I mean Larry

I agree on spending time to save the money. And no Hooker didn't make a D port header for first gens, i just got the Super comps, instead of the comps, and i could choose primary size. Turns out thr 1 5/8" primary fits really good. And with the aluminun or copper gaskets, they seal REALLY good. there are hundreds of different approches to doing this swap, and larry's is 1, and mine is 1. I'm taking my LT1/T56 out to swap in an LS1 and T56 transAXLE. OH YEAH- 50/50 weight distribution!!!

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Can I have the old LT1 once you take it out?

Please?

Well, it was worth a try :)

What's the deal with the transaxle vs the transmission - does it become part of the differential like.. oh, like those cars I can't think of with the tranny in the differential and true IRS?

------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 - now with 500,000 miles!(Daily Driver)

Yep. the transaxle is a T56 sixspeed with an IRS differental connected to it. it comes from 97+ corvettes. Should be pretty killer once it all goes in.....

------------------
1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

Well Boys,

Something is very apparent to me in this thread and most times it is never expressed but those of you that know me KNOW I am not shy a bit in throwing my opinion out.

Camaros.net has a wealth of very knowledgeable people that gladly share their knowledge with others and let's face it we GENERALLY believe our way is better than someone else's, that's just human nature.
Also as the real world goes, there are few of us here that are fortunate enough to be able to afford the BEST solution REGARDLESS of it's cost. Most of the rest of us do have some constraints in the area of either time or money or both.

IMO we need to hear SOLUTIONS from both the people that may have a creative and very cost effective way of solving a problem AND also from those guys can come up with the best solution REGARDLESS of it's cost.
That then is how I look at how IMO someone should look at this thread and all the others at Camaros.NET.

It is ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT for those of us that take the cost is no object approach to share with others when that approach fails or doesn't live up to expectations. WHY YOU ASK???? Well, because it will help someone else that may not be able to afford the mistake and you are OBLIGATED to do that because someone helped you out before, REMEMBER????

INJSTEETRODS and TEETOE BOTH have good solutions. What's important is that everyone SHOULD feel free to express their opinions here REGARDLESS of whether we feel we have a better one.

After all you know what opinions are like RIGHT???, EVERYONE's got one (along with something else if you get the gist of the joke!!!)

Something else goofy to think about boys, EINSTEIN FLUNKED math when he was in school and Michael Jordan was CUT from his high school basketball team because his coach didn't think he was good enough. Now what do you think of those OPINIONS????

Right on,
I'm not into the new/old conversions YET and thats why I've asked when the last of the original style engines were put in all cars and trucks.(for bone yard scrounging, etc..)
Thanks for all the new conversion info, though. pdq67

Great info.
It's great to hear different ways to do a swap.
Some people are better at wiring, and others are better at welding and fabrication.
Others are not good at either but have better connections for parts.
Then there is the money deal, some have more money some have more time or skill.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

It is really great to see a good discussion by two intelligent people with a different opinion. I think that it is great to see both sides of this debate, without childlike riff-raff. I myself have thought about his swap many times. The wiring had always scared me off, but now I see there is more than 1 option.

Larry, I would love to get my hands on a manual to do this swap. I would also be very interested in your proposed web site (and I am sure a couple advertisers would be also!!). Please keep us informed. I will research the topic a little farther and most likely will have many questions.

Brad
'68, 327, TH350 (some assembly required)

There is an article in the new Hot Rod about swapping an LS1 into a 71 Camaro.

It's a bit on the vague side, and doesn't go into that much detail, but worth glancing at regardless.

One thing that was mentioned in the article is that the LS1's engine mounts are not in the same place as older V8s - is that LS1-only, or does the LT1 also need special mounting?



------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 - now with 500,000 miles!(Daily Driver)

Hi Derek,

I had a friend call me last night about the article. I have been so busy the last year I let my Hot Rod run out, so I guess I'll go buy one off the news stand.

To answer your other question the mounts are the same on the LT1, however from the factory there is an extra hole in the block on the pass side, and the Camaro mount is upside down and one set of holes back. The other holes are there, but if you run the AC comp the back brace needs mod's to clear MM bracket. As has been said before the AC comp won't clear the early cars or pickups frame rail.

Larry

Do to much fustration with my current v8 - six speed combo(see my post in Engine and Drivetrain), I have decide to do the Vette LT1 thing. I knows its a lowly 3rd gen, but I will try to document as much as I can. Maybe then, when the manual is written, it could cover the first 3 gens.

------------------
------------------
Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/

Larry,

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean (would have sent you email, but better to clear it up for anyone else that is also not quite sure)- are you saying that the LT1 engine mounts are the same as the LS1 (i.e. different from older SBC mounts and requiring work to mount) - if they are, how would you mount one in an old Camaro (I assume custom mounts, but what do they look like?)

What is the MM Bracket? (can't think of anything car-related that would be MM, which should show that this is not what I get paid to know http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif )

And with the AC thing - I take it that moving the AC to the 'vette location is a bit more involved than just grabbing a bracket from the dealership?

Mark, I'm all for hearing about your experiences as well - I think I'm going to need all the help I can get when it comes time http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif


------------------
camaro@derekf.com
67 Camaro Basket Case
69 El Camino SS396 - now with 500,000 miles!(Daily Driver)

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the post, but think about it, any late model, and that means starting with the old CCC carb/ computer, from 1980 on, if every thing is not right it will eat your lunch. And yes I've seen your post, and when you find the problem with your car it will be something simple, you have done all the hard stuff.

But there is one thing about this if we have done our own harness, then we go at things with a new, and confident approch that I know this system, harness and all and I WILL FIX IT.

So if you do the LT1 let me know.
Larry

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the post, and yes I have been watching your troubles with your car.

The Vette engine is a good choise, because in Florda like the Metroplex AC is nice and the Vette stuff works for AC.

Let me know what's up.
Larry

Have yall noticed that every time one of these goes to page 2 it messes me up and I do a double post, o well that's life.

Larry

Hi Derek,

I didn't find your post until I found page 2, and yall want me to write a book and I can't even find page 2 here. Just kidding around.

This is why it is good to write back and forth to each other to practice helping one another understand things via email.

I will try from now on to write then abreviate so all will know what I mean, sorry bout that. Motor Mount (MM).

I have been told that the LS1 has relocated mounts on the engine, I have not had time to look and confirm this myself. The mounts on the LT1 are the same as the old mounts as far as bolt holes and location, so they bolt right in 1st gen, stock mounts.

When you get the pull out engine (LT1) the pass side MM bracket from the orignal car is bolted on in a way that is upside down. I have had people bolt the 1st gen mount in the same place and call saying this mount won't line up right. There is in fact an extra hole in the newer block but all the holes we need are still there.

As far as the brackets on the LT1, the vette stuff all fits on one side and the Camaro stuff all fits on the other side. I have done a couple of pickups and the AC problem is the same on them. So in order to have AC with stock brackets the vette stuff works.

Larry

Hey Larry, when I said (wrote) about covering the first 3 gens, I meant 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen cars. I figured there are many different cars on this board, and probably a few different people who want to do a LT1 swap. Sorry about that.

Now, I just have to find the motor!

------------------
------------------
Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/