Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed? [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?


tonyvol
Aug 1st, 10, 06:28 AM
Hey guys I need some help on this one. I'm building a 454 and I was going to go with Comp Cam XR-288-HR. I'm using a Tremec TKO 600 with the .64 overdrive and a 355 gear and I'm concerned that the cam my builder installed will not work well with the 5 speed setup. I don't want to have that lurching feeling in 5th gear if you know what I mean. What do guys think?

What I wanted to go with:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-288-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, works well in large c.i. street machine engines with 2500+ stall.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 288 294
Dur @ .050" Lift 236 242
Valve Lift .0521 .054
Lobe Lift .0307 .0319


What my builder installed:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033

TJS69
Aug 1st, 10, 08:20 AM
Cams are not that much different. Make sure you have 10:1 compression or more. I would also put some more rear gear into it. At least 3.73's.

tonyvol
Aug 1st, 10, 08:27 AM
Cams are not that much different. Make sure you have 10:1 compression or more. I would also put some more rear gear into it. At least 3.73's.

Thanks for the good advice. With the pistons and heads I'm using, I should have 10:1 c.r, so I should be good there. Your'e right...I may need to switch to a 3.73 gear. So do you think with that combination I so be good with driveability?

JBS71383
Aug 1st, 10, 08:50 AM
Thanks for the good advice. With the pistons and heads I'm using, I should have 10:1 c.r, so I should be good there. Your'e right...I may need to switch to a 3.73 gear. So do you think with that combination I so be good with driveability?

You should be good with that combination..Those arent very big cams for a 454. Especially since the Lobe seperation on those I believe is 110, there wont be alot of overlap to deal with.

Fred Ficarra
Aug 1st, 10, 09:00 AM
And it should have good vacuum too. Rest easy and enjoy. Hey! It's a roller. Don't like it? Change it. No need to replace any other components. In fact, some of those fancy new engines that copy ours, (forget who makes them) even have a cam-change feature. Flip a lever and the rollers are raised away from the lobes and the cam is free to pull out and replace. Neat. That's rollers for you. Who makes that?;)

98blackburb
Aug 1st, 10, 11:57 AM
Hey Fred, I see you're flirting with near 10's......nice, drop me a line.take care....alan

Fred Ficarra
Aug 1st, 10, 12:22 PM
Hey Fred, I see you're flirting with near 10's......nice, drop me a line.take care....alan
Done.

SIDEWAYS
Aug 2nd, 10, 05:44 PM
You probably will have issues under ~2000 rpms with the larger cam. Once you get to 2000 or higher, both cams will be fine. I run a 248/254 SR Comp right now. After you subtract lash, its more like 240/246. Under 2000 its bucks a bit, primarily around 1500-1600 rpms. This is with a 502, TKO .64, 3.90 rear gear, 28" tires. I ran a 231/239 Lunati HR, and she would go down to 1100-1200 rpm easily when I had the 454, everything else the same. I changed that cam to a 245/252 comp HR, and again, under 2000 was rough.

Keep in mind, this was around-town/fast back back roads. On the highway - run just about whatever you want, so long as the rpms are over 2000, you'll be fine.

Steiner
Aug 2nd, 10, 06:27 PM
You're going to get arrested out on the highway in that thing.

With a 3.55 gear I think it's going to have issues under 2000 which means you have to be running almost 70mph. I run a 3.42, 224/224 @0.050", and 10.11:1 and it will pull fifth uphill at 1500 RPM (as long as I don't try to give it too much throttle) and flat roads with light throttle at 1300 and up but I have EFI which I think makes a difference. My gear is the main reason I picked that cam. Of course, this is a 400 SBC not a big block. One of the main issues isn't really the amount of power you have below 2000 RPM but that the torque multiplication with a 0.64 OD and light rear just doesn't put a lot of torque down to the wheels and puts a lot of load on the engine.

Wish I had done more gear though. I like being able to run around town in fifth and I'm just barely on the cam right now. However, one of the good things about having a little less gear is that fourth runs a fairly low RPM when running around town at 35-45 mph and the torque multiplication is good enough that it scoots well.


Oh, one other thing......did they dyno your engine and where did it make peak power? I would think it would be fairly high (mine was at 5800). With a hydraulic roller that starts to come apart not too far north of 6000, there's not a whole lot of reason to have it peak out way up there. It would aggravate me if I asked for one cam and the builder put in another unless there was a really good reason for it (dynamic compression or something).

fatblock
Aug 2nd, 10, 06:40 PM
Hey guys I need some help on this one. I'm building a 454 and I was going to go with Comp Cam XR-288-HR. I'm using a Tremec TKO 600 with the .64 overdrive and a 355 gear and I'm concerned that the cam my builder installed will not work well with the 5 speed setup. I don't want to have that lurching feeling in 5th gear if you know what I mean. What do guys think?

What I wanted to go with:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-288-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, works well in large c.i. street machine engines with 2500+ stall.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 288 294
Dur @ .050" Lift 236 242
Valve Lift .0521 .054
Lobe Lift .0307 .0319


What my builder installed:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033

Without knowing your total combo and your power goals (maybe I missed that)..I prefer your cam choice over the builders,with cruising and driveability in mind as you stated.
Nice thing is that you have 5 ratios to find the sweet spot and some room to play with rear tire size before a gear swap.

tonyvol
Aug 3rd, 10, 04:21 PM
Without knowing your total combo and your power goals (maybe I missed that)..I prefer your cam choice over the builders,with cruising and driveability in mind as you stated.
Nice thing is that you have 5 ratios to find the sweet spot and some room to play with rear tire size before a gear swap.

Thanks guys for the great replies. So if I change to a 3.73 gear will this change make the cruising and driveability better with this cam?

Steiner
Aug 3rd, 10, 06:45 PM
I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.

tonyvol
Aug 4th, 10, 04:16 AM
I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.

So... what would be the best thing to do? Change the cam or go with a 3.90gear? If I go with a 3.90 gear will I have a real short first gear? Also, I was thinking about running vintage air on the car...how will the cam work for that. Thanks for all the great advice and trying point me in the right direction.

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033

SIDEWAYS
Aug 4th, 10, 04:26 AM
I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.

This is the "problem" with the trans...the huge space between 4th and 5th. I could be driving at 2500 in 4th, shift to 5th, rpms drop to 1500, and the motor doesn't really like it. You have to deal with this space no matter what your rear gear is, cause all your rear gear does is move this "space" up or down. I'm running 3.90's now, will likely go to 4.11's as my ring and pinion are messed-up anyway. However, there wont be a big difference from 3.90 to 4.11's.

Question is, how do you use the car? If your around town mostly and want to use 5th, you need to install a small cam, and get some gear in there. Highway, you can run just about any cam, so long as you get the rpms up over 2000. Mine purs at 2000-2100 at 70 on the highway.

If I had to do it all over again, probably run the .82 RR unit along with a 3.55 to 3.73, and enjoy another "evenly" spaced gear drop from 4th to 5th. Probably would get better mileagle as I'd be in 5th all the time around town, rather than screaming in 4th, lugging in 5th.

PS - dont worry about teh too short first gear thing...its supposed to be short! Stick cars like gear, about as much as you can throw at them, as there's no convertor here helping out...its all muscle!

Steiner
Aug 4th, 10, 07:04 AM
The big questions are:
-What compression is your engine?
-What heads are you running?
-What is your main use for the car?

I spent probably a month putting mine together on paper. It'll still pull the 3.42 rear at 50mph in fifth but the 3.73 would've put about 9% more torque down and would've moved my low speed fifth habit into a sweeter spot. Most of our city streets here are 45mph four lanes (can run 55) so I wanted to be able to use fifth in town.

Now, I have no big block experience. I don't know how they affect how big a cam looks compared to a small block.

tonyvol
Aug 4th, 10, 08:56 AM
The big questions are:
-What compression is your engine?
-What heads are you running?
-What is your main use for the car?

I spent probably a month putting mine together on paper. It'll still pull the 3.42 rear at 50mph in fifth but the 3.73 would've put about 9% more torque down and would've moved my low speed fifth habit into a sweeter spot. Most of our city streets here are 45mph four lanes (can run 55) so I wanted to be able to use fifth in town.

Now, I have no big block experience. I don't know how they affect how big a cam looks compared to a small block.

Steiner,

The motor is a 454 bored 30 over.

-What compression is your engine? 10:1
-What heads are you running? Edelbrock RPM Performer Oval port 110cc
-What is your main use for the car? Street/Cruising Around Town

DonCasanova
Aug 4th, 10, 01:57 PM
Tony - fwiw - I can give my experience in my 69..... 454+.060...10.5-1CR.....(296/288-.630)solid FT....oval ports....31" tire....4.88 rear gear.
Switched from early TKO II (3.27 first, 0.83 fifth) to new TKO 600 (2.87 first, 0.64 fifth) last year. Nothing wrong with old trans, but wanted less highway rpm, and got a deal on new trans.
Turns out, I actually liked the lower gear trans more. 99% of my driving is not on the highway. The lower 1st gear was a little easier on the clutch, and my clutch foot, and the engine(which is soggy under 2000 rpm).
I also notice myself holding longer in 4th, because 5th is such a jump. No difference in mileage overall.
Anyhoo....Mine was more fun with lower gears.........Good luck...........DC

Steiner
Aug 4th, 10, 05:45 PM
Tony,

My engine is 10.11:1. You can look at my numbers below and see how the power band looks with a much smaller cam than the two you have picked out (it's a custom grind off an XR276HR). That's why I went with it since mine it only a street and highway car with mild gear. With good heads, a smaller cam will still maintain power up top. My hp was down from the 5800 RPM peak only 17hp at 6300RPM, and it made over 500 lb ft from just over 3000 RPM through 5200 RPM. Also with a hydraulic roller in a street car with OD, there is no reason (to me anyway) to pick one so large that peak power comes in past 6000 RPM.

I would say that if you don't want to do a gear swap something closer to a 230 duration (XR282HR) at 0.050" would be just about perfect in a BBC street ride with steep OD and mild gear. This is just based on if your driving style is similar to mine (fourth and fifth 95% of the time). When I set up mine, I did it for torque and power band and told them I didn't care where hp landed. If you stay in the same cam family, the engine is going to make roughly the same torque with each cam but the peak hp and power band is just going to move up the larger the cam goes.


Again though, this is just based on my type of driving. The car has plenty up top and pulls freely way past where it needs to go. I set it up so it would be the most enjoyable where it has to spend the majority of its time.

tonyvol
Aug 5th, 10, 05:50 AM
Tony,

My engine is 10.11:1. You can look at my numbers below and see how the power band looks with a much smaller cam than the two you have picked out (it's a custom grind off an XR276HR). That's why I went with it since mine it only a street and highway car with mild gear. With good heads, a smaller cam will still maintain power up top. My hp was down from the 5800 RPM peak only 17hp at 6300RPM, and it made over 500 lb ft from just over 3000 RPM through 5200 RPM. Also with a hydraulic roller in a street car with OD, there is no reason (to me anyway) to pick one so large that peak power comes in past 6000 RPM.

I would say that if you don't want to do a gear swap something closer to a 230 duration (XR282HR) at 0.050" would be just about perfect in a BBC street ride with steep OD and mild gear. This is just based on if your driving style is similar to mine (fourth and fifth 95% of the time). When I set up mine, I did it for torque and power band and told them I didn't care where hp landed. If you stay in the same cam family, the engine is going to make roughly the same torque with each cam but the peak hp and power band is just going to move up the larger the cam goes.


Again though, this is just based on my type of driving. The car has plenty up top and pulls freely way past where it needs to go. I set it up so it would be the most enjoyable where it has to spend the majority of its time.

Thanks Steiner for the good Info.

tonyvol
Aug 5th, 10, 05:52 AM
Tony - fwiw - I can give my experience in my 69..... 454+.060...10.5-1CR.....(296/288-.630)solid FT....oval ports....31" tire....4.88 rear gear.
Switched from early TKO II (3.27 first, 0.83 fifth) to new TKO 600 (2.87 first, 0.64 fifth) last year. Nothing wrong with old trans, but wanted less highway rpm, and got a deal on new trans.
Turns out, I actually liked the lower gear trans more. 99% of my driving is not on the highway. The lower 1st gear was a little easier on the clutch, and my clutch foot, and the engine(which is soggy under 2000 rpm).
I also notice myself holding longer in 4th, because 5th is such a jump. No difference in mileage overall.
Anyhoo....Mine was more fun with lower gears.........Good luck...........DC


How is your first gear with a 4.88 rear gear? Is it pretty short?

tonyvol
Aug 5th, 10, 10:15 AM
Hey guys, my builder is going to be pissed at me, since when I questioned him about why he used this cam he developed an additude and he has already installed the cam. The engine doesn't have the intake installed but the timing chain is installed. He said that it is going to be a pain in the a$$ to put another one in. I don't quite get that one. I just called Comp Cams and asked them about the cam my builder installed and you guys are right. It's not going to work real well with the TKO 600 OD .64.

Also, I have to many decimals in valve lift and Lobe Lift from my first post. Here are the correct numbers.

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .54 .56
Lobe Lift .319 .33

So which Comp Cam do you guys recommend I should use with this TKO and I'm going to be running A/C?

Any help would be appreciated.

CPT Chevy
Aug 5th, 10, 10:47 AM
I am running a TKO 500, 3:42 gears, 275/40 R17s with a 454 that has a power range that comes to life just above 2000 RPM: approximately 2000-6000. I am really satisfied with this combo. It takes off like 4:11s with a muncie close ratio and then rolls with traffic (75mph) on the highway at the very bottom of the engines powerband. A TKO 600 has a little higher (numberically lower) and I would think you'd want a 4:11 with a TKO 600 unless you have a really low RPM band. Goto Hurst Driveline website and play around with their RPM calculator. You will want to stay in your power range, that lurching you are talking about starts when you drop below the RPM power band.

tonyvol
Aug 5th, 10, 12:02 PM
WTH, I just talked to my builder and he said there isn't much difference between the 11-433-8 and 11-443-8 cams. I think it's because he doesn't want to change out the cam. I called Comp Cams and they said the 11-443-8 would be to hot of a cam. He said they don't know what they are talking about.

I think I need to have a cam that starts to come in around 2000 rpms. Does that seem to be true?

DonCasanova
Aug 5th, 10, 02:38 PM
Tony - with my tire diameter, and 2.87 first gear, 1st isn't that short.
I still prefer the 3.27 first gear. One unexpected side effect of going to less overall first gear ratio is the sound of a kinda loud car taking off from a stop. From a half block away, bystanders can hear the difference between a nice smooth takeoff as opposed to a chugalug or dragging clutch. The previous trans/rearend lower overall first ratio made a smooth acceleration from a stop easier.
In your case, with the 0.64 fifth, and 4.10's, the final drive is 2.62(still almost useless under 55 mph).

Hope this helps..............DC

Steiner
Aug 5th, 10, 07:31 PM
Based just on the vibe I'm getting from you, I still think the XR282HR would be the best bet with your setup. Me, I like one that rocks back at lower RPM when patting the gas without downshifting, burbles happily along with good power at low speed, and will pull fifth at 1500 RPM while still being able to run up to 6K fine. Some like one that comes on like a freight train when it hits 4000 RPM. You can't possibly have everything, but you can get most of it but only when the cam, trans, and rear gear are all set up together. OD with a manual transmission throws a new wrinkle into the whole equation. With the manual OD, it's not as simple as saying "Well the engine makes good power at 2000 RPM" if someone is used to a four speed or TH350/400 or even an automatic OD because once you hit fifth you're putting only 64% of the torque to the wheels you were in fourth at any RPM and you've got no torque converter to help out.

But what the hell is with your builder? If the timing cover and oil pan aren't on yet, a cam change shouldn't take more than an hour. I would put my happiness with my car before his happiness with me. I feel for you man, I really do. No one wants a pissed builder but then again a good builder should want a happy customer.

I really think the main issue is that he is building you an engine based more around a power goal then for intended use with your specific setup. He is not thinking about the 0.64 OD and 3.55 rear that you want to be able to use without having to run 70mph to shift into fifth. I had similar conversations with my builder. When someone who races is building a street engine, some of the compromises that need to be made can get lost in the shuffle. I had that conversation with my builder. Once I got across what the car's use was, how I liked to drive, and what my overall setup was, he was with me on what type of cam I wanted.

My cam selection was originally based on running a 383. I came across some money and decided to step up to a Dart block and a 400 and I asked him if we should go up a size in cam. He said no, for what I was wanting to do and with my setup the custom ground 276 would still be the best option. He was right.

Your builder is partially right. It's not too much cam for that engine....but it is too much cam for someone who wants to easily cruise in fourth and fifth with a 3.55 rear.....and not do it at excessive speed.

Take a look at Vince's setup. He's running a 286 cam with 3.90 rear and TKO-600.....and that is with a 509ci engine.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183369

Think you can get your builder to agree to pay for a gear change if you're not happy with it after you get it running? If you were anywhere near me, I'd gladly let you drive mine to see if it were close to what you envision for yours. It can sometimes be hard to build one on paper that works out exactly like you wanted once everything comes together. It can also be hard for someone to admit that maybe there's something they don't like about theirs. I'll flat out tell you that I wish I had gone with a little more rear gear in mine to put a little more torque to the ground in fifth BUT with a 3.42 fourth becomes a good gear at low speeds.

tonyvol
Aug 6th, 10, 05:05 AM
Based just on the vibe I'm getting from you, I still think the XR282HR would be the best bet with your setup. Me, I like one that rocks back at lower RPM when patting the gas without downshifting, burbles happily along with good power at low speed, and will pull fifth at 1500 RPM while still being able to run up to 6K fine. Some like one that comes on like a freight train when it hits 4000 RPM. You can't possibly have everything, but you can get most of it but only when the cam, trans, and rear gear are all set up together. OD with a manual transmission throws a new wrinkle into the whole equation. With the manual OD, it's not as simple as saying "Well the engine makes good power at 2000 RPM" if someone is used to a four speed or TH350/400 or even an automatic OD because once you hit fifth you're putting only 64% of the torque to the wheels you were in fourth at any RPM and you've got no torque converter to help out.

But what the hell is with your builder? If the timing cover and oil pan aren't on yet, a cam change shouldn't take more than an hour. I would put my happiness with my car before his happiness with me. I feel for you man, I really do. No one wants a pissed builder but then again a good builder should want a happy customer.

I really think the main issue is that he is building you an engine based more around a power goal then for intended use with your specific setup. He is not thinking about the 0.64 OD and 3.55 rear that you want to be able to use without having to run 70mph to shift into fifth. I had similar conversations with my builder. When someone who races is building a street engine, some of the compromises that need to be made can get lost in the shuffle. I had that conversation with my builder. Once I got across what the car's use was, how I liked to drive, and what my overall setup was, he was with me on what type of cam I wanted.

My cam selection was originally based on running a 383. I came across some money and decided to step up to a Dart block and a 400 and I asked him if we should go up a size in cam. He said no, for what I was wanting to do and with my setup the custom ground 276 would still be the best option. He was right.

Your builder is partially right. It's not too much cam for that engine....but it is too much cam for someone who wants to easily cruise in fourth and fifth with a 3.55 rear.....and not do it at excessive speed.

Take a look at Vince's setup. He's running a 286 cam with 3.90 rear and TKO-600.....and that is with a 509ci engine.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=183369

Think you can get your builder to agree to pay for a gear change if you're not happy with it after you get it running? If you were anywhere near me, I'd gladly let you drive mine to see if it were close to what you envision for yours. It can sometimes be hard to build one on paper that works out exactly like you wanted once everything comes together. It can also be hard for someone to admit that maybe there's something they don't like about theirs. I'll flat out tell you that I wish I had gone with a little more rear gear in mine to put a little more torque to the ground in fifth BUT with a 3.42 fourth becomes a good gear at low speeds.

Steiner, Thank you for the great reply back. You provided me with exactly what I'm looking for. I'll be driving this car exactly as you described... on the street cruising.

I'm very grateful for the responses from everyone's posts. This is the reason I came here to ask questions about this. In the past, I have received excellent advice from Team Camaro members on questions that I have had.

I wish he would be more understanding in the fact that I'm trying to get all the pieces of the puzzle to work correctly. I mean... when I last talked to him and told him that Comp Cams recommended going in the same direction as you guys did on the cam. He said that those tech guys don't know what they are talking about... now come on now. Everyone has recommended going to a smaller cam for the setup I'm running and everyone's wrong! What's up with that? I know it will be a pain for him to install another cam, but I don't believe I'll be happy if we don't. And it's going to be a bigger pain if I need to change it out when everything is put back together.

Thanks Again for everyone's advice...I really appreciate it.