Any ideas guys? This is for street performance and a little time at the strip. Im kinda leaning towards the lil 327. It made 360hp in the vette. Im mainly looking for torq but dont have the money for a stroker or big block. Has any experienced a hopped up 327? I know know what the 350 is like and kinda wanna be alittle different. Lets say i allready had a 327 with 10.35 forged pistons and edelbrouch RPM AL. heads what type of cam would you run. I was thinking solid with around 285grind, 535 in 555ex from comp. or any better ideas?

cam choice is too big for torque. 327s are more high winders then torque motors. a good street/strip cam will be about 230-240 degrees duration at .050" solid or hydrualic is good.
visit www.compcams.com (http://www.compcams.com) and check out there grinds.

Yeah 327 are the most smallest stroke SB motor I believe. Don't qoute me on this, but I do know if you need to move something big you use torque or have a really deep rear gear. 350's are better for torque. If you want you can find a cheapo 305 motor out of a camaro and throw a 400 crank in it. See 350's and 305 share the same crank size. If not tell me what you want and usually I can find someone in America willing to sell it for the price your looking for. Right now, I know of 350's piled up like chords of wood. Being sold for 75 bucks. So just let me know what car and size and I can find an engine to match.


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It is better to burn out than fade away

be real diffetn and bulid a 302, i know lots of money.
327`s are a high rev mtr, and do best with at least 3:55 gears,(3000-3500 stall if auto)keep the comp ratio to atleast 10.25 and no more than 235 @.50 on the camif you want any bottom end(lift would have alot to deal what kind of heads your going to use), if you want any bottom end. as you can see high end mtr.power band around 3500-3800 and stop pulling around 6800(solid cam)
350 atleast 9.75 comp ratio 3:31 gears atleast (3000 stall if auto)230 cam(atleast a good set of hump heads).4.80 -.512 lift power band 3000-6200 hyd cam solid cam 6500 a hyd cam is out of the game after 6300-6500rpm
I`ve had both, 327 11:1 soild erson cam 238@.50 .520 lift,fully ported 461`s humps,heads were milled way down block deck .05 bored .040 over steel shim head gaskets,th 350 3500 stall 3:73 posi i loved this mtr when it ran right, it was very hard to run it on pump gas it like about 50-50 of race gas vp110 and 92,but it could be driven on 92 running a little bit fat and retared to 12O int and 32o total, 15 and 36 seemed best,I have 3:31 posi and they were just to high to get a launch,was ethier smoke `em or bog it i ended up spinning a main now it sits on the stand waiting for that one day I find a new crank never did get it to the track
right now I got a 350 10.5:1 230@50 512 lift(1.6 rockers)hyd cam (comp280 magnum) trick flow twisted wedge heads(g1`s) slight port work just a good clean up its honest 400hp its way more drivalbe than the 327, i can run it on pump gas(might have the 327 also if i had the alum heads then http://www.camaros.net/forum/frown.gif 14int 36Ototal pump gas(race gas dose wake it up alittle) power band 3000-6200 i can launh it ok now, bfg drags, and sub frame`s is the only thing i have, I break mtr mounts all the time,(driver side dont reall want solids)
I still spin the tires in 2nd(street tires go up in smoke in 2nd)
iy you plain to drive the street more than the weekends go 350, I`d say they both make about the same power, just where do you want the tach to be?

I've run a lot of 327's and 350's. I like the 327's in road race cars as they have less inertia and wind up faster than the 350 coming out of turns. The 350's are a better drag race engine since they always make more torque at lower revs.

I agree with pretty much everything that cerbz says including the 302 idea!! My favorite engine that I ever built is a 302 for my bud's 64 'Vette. It isn't that expensive either. You are just putting a 3.00" stroke crank in a 327/350 block! The only pricey part is the pistons, 302 slugs tend to be pricey (I think they are all forged!). The result is a copy of the infamous, screamin', Z-28 engine.

I've run cams in both engines with up to 260* duration @ .050" but, if you build a 302/327 like this, they don't have any low torque and you will need low gears in the rear. I find these engines like 3.90-4.88 rear gears. The plus side is that a well built 302/327 with a mech. cam has 8500 RPM potential!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Build the 302 just so you can tell everybody you have one!! There's nothing like bangin' gears around town at 8000+ RPM!

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Paul D.

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68RS, 331, 10.5:1, 4spd, 3.90 9", lowered, 245-45-16's all 'round

If the 327 winds up faster shouldnt it be a beast at drag racing. The faster you wind the better right? Or are you talking about winding up real well at lest say 3000+ rpm. Does anyone know the torq that 360 hp vette motor made. I know the LT1 had 370 hp and 380 torq. I just like to be a little different and the 327 sounds like a screamer. About the 302 i have heard that it isnt the most street mannered motor but is a great performer. Im not gonna be mixing race fuel for it so compression is gonna be knocked down to at least 10-1. Probally leaning towards the 282 solid from comp. And edelbrouchs RPM Al. heads because i have a set already. maybe some one could dyno this for me ok lets say 327 10-1, comp 282 336@.05 and 495 lift with 110 degrees lobe seperation solid mag,1.6 roller rockers, 1-5/8 super comp headers, 770 holly street avenger vac secondary, air gap rpm or the victor jr i havent decided. I would love to know what kinda torq this beast makes Will you please try this other cam too the comp 294 solid 248 @ .05 and 525 lift with 110 lobe seperation

[This message has been edited by MoeSS396 (edited 12-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by MoeSS396 (edited 12-06-2001).]

i'll try it out with a few different cam profiles, i have lots on file. I'll use Dart Iron eagle 215cc heads (64cc chambers) 10:1 small tube headers and open exhaust, a single plane manifold with a 650cfm carb. the 1.6 ratio rockers are a waste of money on a street engine, you need bigger springs/pushrods and may yeild 5hp at 6500 rpms.
i'm assuming you want a streetable but high winding engine, so i'll try my best to find you a good combo.

Dart iron eagle's(2.02/1.60 valves). a single plane manifold with 650cfm carb, 10:1 comp and a 282S solid cam with 1.5 ratio yeilded:
448HP at 6500rpms
428tq at 5000rpms

the same engine with the 294S comp solid cam yeilded:
474hp at 6500rpms
418tq at 5500rpms

similar engine (i had to raise the compression to 10.5:1 as required by the cam) and put in a 750 CFM carb with the 306S comp solid cam yeiled:
495hp at 6500 rpms
424tq at 5500 rpms
this would be a limited street use cam, and needs a 3500 stall minimum if running with an automatic, and big gears (probably 4.10) as recommened in comp's catalog. this is a wild cam, and if you use it, you'll know it!
I would recommend the 282 or 294 magnum solid cam as they are much more streetable, and will have more low end torque, and have broader HP and torque curves. 10.5:1 compression is pushing it for street use, and may result in detonation problems, but the 282 and 294 would be fine with 9.5:1 or 10:1.
you'll definetly want a solid cam, as this thing will be a high winder. dont fall for rollers, they arent a street thing, and cost more then they are worth on the street (at the track they are king).
please remember the desktop dyno numbers aren't actual numbers but should serve only to give an idea of of curves power ranges trends and correct part choices and a good idea of the HP, and is by no means flawless.

If you are looking for torque then definetly use the 350. Also if you are looking for torque consider longer rods (thats if you don't have the pistons and rods yet) because the longer the rod the better the geometry for rod angle. Hard to explain properly as I'm not a goorue but there is less internal stress because the rod isn't on as much of an angle to the crank but, but, and it's a big but, more importantly, your pistons stay at the top longer giving you more time for compression to build. With the cam choice you are talking,(which is pretty big) you may want to consider putting in a stroker crank and going the 383 direction but involves extra machining for clearances. As far as 302, 327, or 350 the are all 4.0" bore so really the same blocks except for the main-journal diameters kept changing for different years, but if you have a block now basically you have your choice as to what motor to build just by crank choice. If you use a 283 crank (3" stroke) you get a 302, if you use a 327 crank (3.25" stroke) you get a 327, if you use a 350 crank (3.48" stroke) you get a 350, if you use a 400 crank (3.75" stroke) & bore it out 30 you get a 383. Again you have to watch your journal sizing/machining. Having said all that, you said $ are a factor so stroking and extensive machine work is pretty much out the door. You are looking for torque so the 327 route is pretty much out the door so looking like a 350 or 355 is the ticket. Do some reading on the longer rods, lots of extra potential here (but then you are loking at machine work to your pistons or purchasing new ones). But I have rambelled on way too much, good luck eh!

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'68 Camaro, 350 (30 over), Forged TRW 9.8, Scat 4340 Crank, RPM Air Gap, RPM Alum. heads,
Holley 770, Turbo 400, 2.73 going to 4.11, Stock stall going to 2800, Comp Cams 280H-10.
Will be adding 250 HP Giggle Gas.
(Hope to run high 11's without and get into 10's with the HUMOR BUTTON Squeeeeezzed)

Alright just so you know the 327 understroked is called a 307 not a 302. A 302 is a stroked out version of the 283. Just food for thought for you so you can get your story straight.

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It is better to burn out than fade away

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sneakey pete:
If you are looking for torque then definetly use the 350. Also if you are looking for torque consider longer rods (thats if you don't have the pistons and rods yet) because the longer the rod the better the geometry for rod angle. Hard to explain properly as I'm not a goorue but there is less internal stress because the rod isn't on as much of an angle to the crank but, but, and it's a big but, more importantly, your pistons stay at the top longer giving you more time for compression to build. With the cam choice you are talking,(which is pretty big) you may want to consider putting in a stroker crank and going the 383 direction but involves extra machining for clearances. As far as 302, 327, or 350 the are all 4.0" bore so really the same blocks except for the main-journal diameters kept changing for different years, but if you have a block now basically you have your choice as to what motor to build just by crank choice. If you use a 283 crank (3" stroke) you get a 302, if you use a 327 crank (3.25" stroke) you get a 327, if you use a 350 crank (3.48" stroke) you get a 350, if you use a 400 crank (3.75" stroke) & bore it out 30 you get a 383. Again you have to watch your journal sizing/machining. Having said all that, you said $ are a factor so stroking and extensive machine work is pretty much out the door. You are looking for torque so the 327 route is pretty much out the door so looking like a 350 or 355 is the ticket. Do some reading on the longer rods, lots of extra potential here (but then you are loking at machine work to your pistons or purchasing new ones). But I have rambelled on way too much, good luck eh!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


First off, the high winding motor will not get you down the track a 400 Sb with do that if it has a 350 crank in it (377) and has some good compression. Also, as for longer rods. They don't create less stress. If anything it is more because the piston has a longer stroke or path to follow. As for the 1.6 rockers, they are good if your using the motor and wrapping the RPMS up high because they keep the vavles open longer.

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It is better to burn out than fade away

Think that the 360hp/327 had 360 pound-foot of torque!

May I suggest one of the all time sweetest engines that ever came down the pike if you want to take the time to build it is the 352!

It is the 350 that GM shoulda built.

You take a .030" over 400 block and add a medium journal 3.25" stroke, 327 crank with the needed spacer bearings. A set of the longest rods you can buy and afford plus the custom pistons to fit everything together.

Add a 282S solid cam for good street manners. Or even one like the big Duntov 30-30 cam, if you want more upstairs! A Victor Jr. w/ a 750cfm, 3310-2 Holley w/ the correct jetting and secondary spring or even a correctly sized double pumper to breathe upstairs and a good set of long four tube headers.

It will run like a big Z-28, 302 engine, but has good torque b/c it's bigger! IMHO. pdq67

Deimos,

Not to offend but, your dead wrong bud!! My stories straight as it gets!

A 302 is a destroked 327 (a 283 crank in a 327/350 block!!)

A 307 is a stroked 283 ( a 327 crank in a 283 block)

MoeSS396,

327's were a beast at the drags until the late 80's when the pro stock rules got changed around and big blocks (500 ci) got popular!! Grumpy Jenkins successfully campained Pro-Stock Camaros and Monzas forever and his weapon of choice was a 331 inch variant!!

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Paul D.

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68RS, 331, 10.5:1, 4spd, 3.90 9", lowered, 245-45-16's all 'round

Rigt-on, Paul D.!

Like's been said in the past, the 327 was just made right from GM to begin with. It has the highest power/cubic inch potential of all the SB's. You can make more power with a bigger engine but ratio-wise, the 327 and its variations will produce more per cubic inch. Or so I've read. IMHO. pdq67

PS., BTW, Whats the D. stand for, mine is Dean.

My "D" is for DeYeso! Pronounced like D-S-O!
I actually designed/marketed a line of high performance igniton controls (which did not take off and left me with some pretty big debt!!) under the PDQuick trade name back in the early 90's!

Since we are on just for the record stories
the 302 is the same block as the 327 and 350 the only dif is the main journal sizes. the early (67) 302 is a 327 block as has a 2.3 main journal size and the later 302 (68 & 69) is a 350 block with a 2.45 main journal size. And as far as rod angles go Chevy's bigest downfall in my opinion besides pressed in rocker studs and oil pickups is the poor rod to crank geometry. Longer rods are the way to go for less stress as well as more torque. Also the 307 is a stroked 283, they both have a 3.875 bore the 283 has a 3.o stroke and the 307 has a 3.25 stroke.

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'68 Camaro, 350 (30 over), Forged TRW 9.8, Scat 4340 Crank, RPM Air Gap, RPM Alum. heads,
Holley 770, Turbo 400, 2.73 going to 4.11, Stock stall going to 2800, Comp Cams 280H-10.
Will be adding 250 HP Giggle Gas.
(Hope to run high 11's without and get into 10's with the HUMOR BUTTON Squeeeeezzed)

Sneaky Pete,

I may be wrong, but I actually think that a shorter rod, creating a lower rod/stroke ratio, will create more torque. The higher angularity will give more leverage of the rod over the crank. As well, the shorter rod will cause greater piston accelleration up and down in the bore, speeding up the velocity of the charge, causing a higher volumetric efficiency at low-mid range rpms.
Anyway, as for the 327 vs. 350 debate.
The 327 can make decent torque and have good horsepower too. Putting in a shorter duration cam (~220* @.050) and some good flowing heads can give good low end power, and still allow for some pretty good high revs. If you want it to really scream, go with a solid lifter cam.

boodlefoof,

The long rod will make more torque because it decreses the rate at which the piston accelerates and decelerates. This allows more "dwell time" for the piston at TDC which gives the burn process more time to build pressure on the piston before it starts back down in the cylinder. Remember, "burning" is a reasonably slow chemical process. You can't get the power out if you don't burn all the fuel!!

If you want more "angle" on the crank pin, then try having some pistons with the wrist pins offset towards the outside of the engine made up! Actually a bunch of people did this in the 50's and 60's. They found that the bore wear caused by the offset pins wasn't worth the power gain!!

[This message has been edited by PDQUICK (edited 12-07-2001).]

Thank you all and thanks for the dyno pretty impressive. Yes im sorry to state that a 383 is out the door. I dont know if this makes a difference to your dyno but i have edelbrouchs performer RPM heads Aluminum. Yes and i will not go over 10-1 compression cause this is a street motor. It will have pretty middle ground gears 3.55. About this rod length stuff i think a 327 and 350 use the same size rod 5.7 but have a different stroke. I like my high reving motors but im not to off the wall about my max torq at 5500 rpms. is there any other cam that will make it come down to around 4500 or 4000? Thank you

[This message has been edited by MoeSS396 (edited 12-07-2001).]

the 282S solid cam has a broad curve and has very good torque upto 5000 where it tops off, so its kicking but 2000-5000 in the torque range. Its the cam i also plan on using in my 355ci.
i'll try and find the flows on the Edelbrock RPM heads and post some more numbers.

heres a DD2K on a 650cfm carb, single plain intake, RPM heads (flow #'s off the edelbrock website) 10:1 compression. small tube open exhaust, and the 282S cam.
456hp at 6500 rpms
425tq at 5000 rpms 330tq at 2000 rpms

with the same combo with a dual plane (probably dont want a dual on a 327) but here goes:
419hp at 6000 rpms
409tq at 4500 rpms 357tq at 2000 rpms

Wow those dual planes really bring up the torq 27 ft/ lbs at 2000 rpm is nice but i guess they really must drop the ball after 6000. I think i will stick with the single plane but is there a difference between the big tube 1-3/4 in headers and the 1-5/8 in headers? Thank you for your effort

real life confirms what CamaroNOTCamero is saying about the Performer RPM. My friend's 327 picked up 3/10ths (13.1's to 12.8's) in the quarter when we switched from an RPM to Vic Jr manifold.

The other thing we need to do to this engine is to get rid of his XE 284 hydraulic cam and switch to one of the solid ones you guys have been talking about - like the 294S. The hydraulic cam he has falls on it's face at 6500 even with the Vic Jr and floats the valves at 6700.

My opinion on 327's is that they are great motors - one of the best small blocks Chevy has built. Just don't try to make them into something they are not - a stump puller. They rev great so I'd gear the rear end for a rev monster and have at it http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

Good luck!

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68 Camaro, 383 small block with TH350 trans. 11.98's at 111mph and never trailered.

I used to swap my cheap pistons so that their install notch pointed toward the rear of the engine. This moved the .060" pin offset to give a more advantageous rod angle, but did cause more piston slap when cold! pdq67

If you could deal with 4.10 or 4.56 gears then you wont have to worry about the low end torque as much, but dont get rid of it, or the engine wont have an mid range. i'd say your best bet if you could live with 4.10's is the 282S magnum solid cam, Victor Jr. +1" intake and a 650cfm (back me up on this, but i dont think a 327 will need more even at 6500rpms) double pumper, combine that with the 10:1 and performer heads that you have and you got one heck of a setup!

Hey Pdq67:
If the weather keeps being no snow like this man for Christmas I could take down my car and race you at the local drag. My fiance grew up in Mexico and she says it is like 3 minutes away. We are going to visit a friend who has a 69' stang that runs 10's.

As for the 327 a friend of mine has one that will pull the front tires. No Nitrous or nothing. All motor. If you want I can find out what he has for specs.

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It is better to burn out than fade away

[This message has been edited by Deimos (edited 12-08-2001).]

I can bet your wife knows all about the place! It's right at 40 miles from my front door, now.

I lived for three years and worked in Mexico, MO for a total of 18.5 years at A.P.Green Refractories, Co.

The place almost doesn't exist anymore after the better idea that was the CEO selling the sucker off when the stock was up! He walked away w/ a cool $5/$6 million!

A whole bunch a good people working there also made money b/c they owned stock in it too, but NOT NEAR ENOUGH TO RETIRE ON!!! Go figure???

What I used to do with product installation is about one of the only things still going on besides making refractories. Joey runs Product Installation now and he's the one that found my 454 core for me.

BTW, I got to get mine going so I can hear it Cackle! Later. pdq67

I built a 327 earlier this year for my 69
9.5 kb pistons stock rods 461 humper heads (ported),294 solid cam,1.6 rockers on intake 1.5 exhuast,performer rpm intake and edelbrock 750 carb recurved stock distibuter
this motor screams in my 69 w/4speed its a little lazy under 2500 but pulls like crazy from 3500 to 6500 I drive it on the street all the time and power brakes work fine w/o
vacume can the only thing odd is it likes alot of timing dont know why but it is alot stronger in the low 40's rather than at 34 or 36 total if some one with a desk top dyno could run this I think its a pretty good combination it will need a steeper gear for best results...Mike

i need the flow numbers on the heads (after porting) to run it on the desktop dyno.
btw if the engines power band starts at 3500, then use a victor jr intake (3000-7000 rpm band). dual planes are for low end torque, you dont have much becuase of the cam.

[This message has been edited by CamaroNOTcamero (edited 12-08-2001).]

3DUDE using DD2K with "pocket ported stock heads" 2.02/1.60 valves, 9.5:1 compression, 750cfm carb, and a dual plane i got 430hp at 6500 (which i think is a bit high, maybe 30hp high) 390tq at 5000 rpms.
i switched it to a single plane intake (like the victor Jr.) and it shot up to 475hp at 6500, and 413 tq at 5000.
These numbers are probably a bit high (without the correct flow numbers i cant tell) but this shows a definet trend! you may consider the switch i think it'll help make that 327 a monster at 3000-6500.
i also think that a 750carb on a 327 is overkill, you may pick up some milage by switching to a 650 (and acceleration by switching to a mechanical double pumper) without loosing any power. can anyone back me up on this?

Thanks for running that on your desktop dyno
I struggled with the intake choice but knowing it was going to be soft on the bottom anyway I went dual plane hoping to help out on low end power a bit I also set valve lash about .005 looser on exhaust hoping to get a little better bottom end out of her too! I Might try a victor jr the hp increase is significant!It really doesnt seem to be over carbed and I get 14mpg which I'm pretty satisfied with.I did have to lean it down some and put the lightest springs in the carb to get it running really good thanks again....Mike
Also I dont think it will change the numbers but I'm running full roller rockers and studgirdles.How much did the bottom end power suffer with the single plane as oppossed to the rpm dual plane

[This message has been edited by 3DUDE (edited 12-08-2001).]

not much worse on the bottom end, you might feel the difference but since its not much anyway you'll really like the bigger top end. probably gain you some ET also. if your running a manual it wont bother you at all.