Lets stir the pot. How much of a car can be sold legally and still be a car. We have all seen the guy who takes only the firewall from a rare car like a bigblock pace car or COPO or L78 and sells it on the internet complete with the VIN tags hidden VINs and cowl tag attached. Often it is obvious that even these few remaining parts are bent or rusted beyond repair. Should somebody make it illegal to hold a clean title for such a car? If you bought a late model wreck and attempted to use only that part of a car to rebuild,even assuming that none of the replacement parts were stolen,I would think the state would not give it a rebuilt title. Any car that was totaled by an insurance company wth only that much metal remaining(and maybe even that is damaged) would surly be sold with a scrap on bill of sale. So should it be legal for a person to posess a car or VIN bearing parts that are in such a state of disrepair that almost none of the original car is present for restoring? Isnt such a part no differnt then having the VIN stamped engine and trans?

So could the hobby or the law push to have these cars taken out of circulation once they are discovered? Who would bear the burden of proof that such a car is really beyond repair? Could somebody say that their "car" which is basically just a firewall can be repaired for less then half the replacement value since it is a ZL1 that would cost 500,000 to replace. Could a guy with a rusty and engineless 6 cylinder be told that his car could never be repaired for less then it's 10K estimated value?

Could an entire dynacorn body be purchased,have the upper cowl and dash structure spot welds drilled out and have that part of a real car welded in if the original rivets,and stampings aent tamped with?

Where do we draw the line?

Insurance companies and some manf's, BMW is one of them, if you damage the firewall, total loss. BMW has no part number for the firewall.

Any technique can be done. It's a matter of getting caught or not.

But total losses can be rebuilt. even a car with a bent firewall can be pulled or hammered straight to pass state inspection. I dont think GM makes firewalls for cars either.

But total losses can be rebuilt. even a car with a bent firewall can be pulled or hammered straight to pass state inspection. I dont think GM makes firewalls for cars either.

This isn't going in the direction you wanted but it's the insurance companys that determine when a car is totaled. They base their decision on the cars value (in their eyes) vs repair costs. If it will cost the insurance company more to return a vehicle to safe operating condition than it's value it will be totaled. At that point a check is written and the title is turned over to the insurance company. When this happens the DMV issues the new title as "totaled" in an effort to reduce the number of slapped together unsafe vehicles from getting back on the road.

That's in a nutshell and there is more to it, I'm just using this to point out it's not really about what replacment parts a manufacture makes or doesn't make... If a car could be rebuilt from 1 lugnut for less than it's payoff value the insurance company would not total it!

On the subject of topic, (where do you draw the line rebuilding a rare car) this is really one of those that many will say is beating a dead horse and has been discussed over and over. You won't get a majority in agreement because there are too many thoughts from the purist right down to the guy that wants to screw someone and scores of different opinions or beliefs fall between the 2 extreams!

I New Jersey "totaled" cars are often rebuilt. After the car is totaled by the insurance company it is sold at auction with a title that specifies that the car was damaged beyond the cost of repair. The buyer can choose to dismantle the car for recycling,or rebuild the car at whatever cost it takes. After the car is repaired it can be brought to a state inspection agency(not the typical saftey inspection) where a team of technicians takes the car into a room with no windows and inspects the car for stolen parts and the quality of repair work while you stand outside unaware of exactly what they are looking at. If the car is repaired back to satsifactory standards and the source of all the parts are accounted for then the vehicle will be issued a clean title with only the letter "s" in the staus box which means the car was totaled at one point in time. Junkyards typically store their cars already cut in half since most rebuilders will either buy a front half or rear half body to weld to the clean end of their rebuildable car. Rebuilders try to section the cars at factory seams,and the prefered method to section a full frame car is to "Z" cut the chassis. I had to do a wheel alignment on a full frame Caddilac that was the front half of a 1985 caddy that had been flattened to the groiund in the rear by a city bus going 100 mph,welded to the rear half of a 1978 caddy that came from he junkyard. When done you couldnt see where the sectioning happened. The car was issued a clean "S" title by the DMV. If the body shop had to charge for all new parts for this job and assemble each one by hand it would have cost thousands over what the car was worth. The probably paid 4200 for the rear clip of the 78 Caddy with the doors,interior trunklid,bumper and all the trimmings attached and took about 20 hours of labor(probably done as a body man's side project for some quick cash) to piece the 2 messes together.

A lot of classic cars we see for sale on the internet have a lot less left to them then that poor old Caddilac,and yet there is no record that the car was ever so badly damaged and then rebuilt.

I know this topic has been beaten to death,but its the winter and some of us are bored:)

hey Rick aint jersey the chop shop state?...LOL
I feel what your saying and i see what Dennis is saying also.
we need guide lines.. i think we need politicians involved in the car hobby!! not

I remember back in high school ( 74-76) them cutting mustangs and pintos in half to repair a wrecked car. Thats OK its a ford.

I've bought and repaired many cars under salvage inspection. Like Dennis says, until insurance gets involved all cars are fair game. Except for the cars discovered as fraudulent, I can't see the law scouring the nation on taxpayer's money removing potential cars from the equation. Every car in a build thread would be stamped as salvage on the title, or designated as parts only like the ones bought for salvage repair. I did a customer's 39 Chevy last year that was 50% hand fabbed and also sectioned from donor cars. Where does that fall? Some pose this question: How many times can a non totaled car be repaired after being hit in every corner until it's no longer the original car? I'm sure the resto houses would be a little unhappy if cars being rebuilt were forced into the melting pot. Salvaged titled cars would make others that are not a tad more valuable, no?

Cars that havent had major repair are already held in higher value then cars that needed extensive resto work. Like anything else,as the value of the real deal goes up,the quality of the forgeries goes up. As we learn more and more about the nook and cranny details of original cars the restorers will be able to better duplicate those details onto cars with extensive repairs. I dont have any problem with this,al most everything I own would be classified as junk if you really though about how much it would take to make it like new.

I am just a hot rodder and couldnt really give a crap,but with the prices of these cars going over the auction blocks and the fraud that is going on I can see this becoming an issue. We arent talking about buying a $5000 car that turns out to be a lemon,we are talking about buying a supposed $500,000 car that is really just a retagged $20,000 base model with a lot of forged paperwork,restamped parts ect.

We arent talking about buying a $5000 car that turns out to be a lemon,we are talking about buying a supposed $500,000 car that is really just a retagged $20,000 base model with a lot of forged paperwork,restamped parts ect.
If a person is dropping that kind of coin unarmed with education or fail to recruit those who possess it and they buy a POS, they deserve what they get. Same principle applies to any valuable object.

This sounds strangely like the thread on ole Serial number 00001...

Whats this have to do with - Tag Team De-coding tags and numbers.

This is the forum where fake trim tags and things like VIN numbers and tags being sold on the internet are udually discussed. I think there is a tread on here right now that started because somebody put a VIN tag and trim tag on the internet for sale.

Many of the "restorable project cars" that are being sold on Craigslist,Ebay ect are obviously not practical to restore,but are probably just being offered to supply the buyer with a VIN tag to retag his stolen of otherwise illegal car.A car that consists of only a 2 foot long chink of firewall with a title sitting next to it is obviously not a car anymore. There seems to be a few treads being posted on forums like this where guys want to know what to do with a car that they discover has a mismatch between the hidden and dashboard VIN,(how many guys really check that when buying a car? )And some even have such obvious discrpancies as having a Chevy Impala tag cut and glued over the original tag of a Camaro that was stolen decades ago.

Thats why it is here.

This sounds strangely like the thread on ole Serial number 00001...

thats what I was thinking too ;)

. . . but speaking of totaled vehicles I am driving one everyday. After I mowed down a huge traffic light post a year ago the insurance co. totaled my 98 Z71 Silverado. Gave me $4700 ( I thought it was worth more than that ) so I had it fixed and shes good as new, I love my truck and didnt want a different one besides what can you get for $4700 ?

. . . but speaking of totaled vehicles I am driving one everyday. After I mowed down a huge traffic light post a year ago the insurance co. totaled my 98 Z71 Silverado. Gave me $4700 ( I thought it was worth more than that ) so I had it fixed and shes good as new, I love my truck and didnt want a different one besides what can you get for $4700 ?

You think thats bad,Let me give you a little run down on my first truck. I bought a 79 Chevy c-10 6 cylinder 3 on the tree. I swapped out the 1/2 ton rear for a 1 ton 4.56 geared 8 lug axle and springs. I decided it still didnt have enuff giddy up so I swapped in a granny gear 4 speed. Then I added a V-8. finally I wanted air condtioning and a friend had an 83 Chevy with no title with a clean interior and A/C. We swapped the cab on. The VIN tag from the 79 was actually shorter then the 83,so we had to weld the holes up,grind it down and redrill new holes for the 79 tag. We actually had Bondo on the tag area where we smoothed it out. 8 lugs in back,5 in front,parts from anywhere we could find them,the poor future owner of that truck better hope they dont ever need to look up parts for it.

Okay, maybe we should try moving this discussion in the direction Rich intended (I think).

I guarantee the thread will get lively and perhaps it will help pass time for those peeps with wintery blues. And ones without wintry blues, too.


I think everything can be replaced on a car and still be a 'car', as long as nothing illegal is done and the owner or seller is straight up with potential buyers. Go ahead and clip the hell out of the thing-I mean a real clip- and then put new sheetmetal and interior and the whole nine yards, I don't care. It is a car, to me. Not an original of course, nor should it be represented as 'original', but it is a car imo .



The rub will always be this: the threshold for when a car no longer is a car is likely an arbitrary event, and not many people will agree to what the threshold is or should be.

I do not support or condone the swapping of tags or VINS. My post is only in regards to the replacement of parts, even all parts of the car.

Okay Rich, you started this thing and I am acting as your accomplice,lol.

Thanks Mike. My intention was to create a discussion that was less about a single car that was rebodied or somehow tamped with,and more about what to do about cars that obvious represent a future rebody in the making. I guess somebody could complain that even a plain jane 6 cylinder firewall with tags were being sold since they could be used to make a Dynacorn body into a legitmate car,but even worse I think is when somebody takes a mint rust free 6 cylinder car and uses it as a donor to "restore" the firewall of a verty high dollar car such as a COPO or L78 ect.

Everybody talks about how if somebody spends big money on a car they should consult an expert,but can an expert really tell the difference if the car in question has all the born with sheet metal with all the correct seam sealer blobs and wrinkles,but has had the upper cowl from a rare car with the hidden VIN# carefull grafted onto it? Wouldnt it be better to have caught that upper cowl panel with VIN's on it before it fell into the wrong hands?

Here is something to think about. A popular TV show did a "restoration" of a first gen F body a while back. The car turned out to be a basket case and was sent to a restoration parts supplier for them to install the needed repair panels. When the car came back it looked an awful lot like a smooth black dynacorn body with the only visable body work being a bunch of spot welds across the fiirewall where it looks like a different panel has been welded on. Thants certainly something that raises a red flag for me. The company that makes most of the parts for the new repop bodies which are causing a legal stir, is allowed to sponsor a project in which the finished product looks a lot like what they really want people to be doing with the repop bodies( retag it as an original)rather then what they are telling people to do with them(register them as a kit car).

look at the art world where "fakes " can cost millions . as long as something has high value , there will always be someone out there to fake it . let the buyer beware. unfortunately (most of the time) the homework and legwork is always seems to be done AFTER the purchase . thats when the buyers remorse sets in . buyer didn't really care much at the time of purchase , just saw that new paint job and spotless motor and interior and layed out the cash. brings such gem to show ( or on line) and gets schooled .

Rich-- just as a side note that I thought was interesting recently...

I was in Arkansas in a u-pull-it yard and found a 1965 Buick Wildcat 2-door in near mint shape. Just missing the engine and tranny. I must have stood there a good 15 minutes just admiring and studying the car and it's impressive condition thinking "it wouldn't take much to make this a sweet litte daily driver." So, just out of curiousity, I asked the clerk how much the whole car would be. He said he can sell me every single part on that car EXCEPT for one square foot of steel that surrounds the VIN plate (and of course the plate itself). Now, there's a real GM car, not a Dyno-body. I wonder just how many of those types of classics are roaming the streets today too. Crazy to think about, ya know?

Interesting thread that has been rehashed in many different ways on here. Still curious though... My general rule of thinking is-- if it can be done, it has been. When there's a will there's a way. It is impossible to police every single auto transaction and transformation,-- I can see your, and other's points here. Good ongoing topic. :yes:

I wonder why he couldnt sell the VIN plate with it. You said the car was restorable right?

Whenever a car is processed into a junkyard the title is deemed "salvage", so in that state you could not get it renewed, insured, or registered.

You would have to go through the state DMV to get a state issued VIN and title for such a car.