Has anyone used this yet? good or bad?

http://www.harborfreight.com/complete-garage-air-kit-66747.html

Of course H.Freight would prey on people in this manner. I'm interested in how they defend it's contradiction to other piping recommendations and mimimal pipe sizes for maximum water removal. Not to mention it's not metal. That diameter is too small to perform as a proper system should. Most run 3/4" black pipe, preferably galvy. And if budget allows type L copper is faster to install if you don't have a pipe threader and tripod. I've posted these before:
http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe.nsf/Page/Air+Piping+Layout

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf
Piping is only as good as the quality of the filtration system and system maintenance.

^^^ X2

Those would only be @3/8" (10mm) :confused:

They are "Pisco" (no really) style fittings.
http://www.pisco.com/category.aspx?catid=1
I've used a ton of them in Chemical processing lines.
Very compact and reliable - unless of course these are from the 'far off exotic lands of China' ... then maybe not so much :(

Pisco makes the fittings up to 16MM (@5/8") ID - so a 'do-able' system could probably be assembled.
We used them to drive high-consumption Dual-Diaphram Shuttle pumps for chemicals and they never had any problem keeping up with the required air flow needs. (8~12cfm @30~60psi).
They are very free-flowing when used correctly.
They make/sell some very good distribution systems and high quality valves also.

I could see a small system like that useful for 'bench-top' use, on small hand tools - but never for a shop air distribution set-up ...

Todd -

Copper pipe works fine, plus who doen't like sweating copper? Almost as fun as welding. I used 1/2" 'cause I had a bunch of it, and a short run of 30'. Copper seems a better choice than black steel to me, which will rust and potentially deposit crap into the lines, plus a much easier install.

The longer the run, probably the bigger the pipe, as there is friction loss over distance. Get your water trap/filter as far from the compressor as you can - gives the vapor time to condense so the trap can catch it. Regulator after the filter.

Soak the nylon hose in a tub of hot water. It will unroll straighter.
If you can substitute the elbows with curves, the better the volume at the end of the line. As media is passing through an elbow the media tumbles in the corner.
As Al suggests, lowering the line loss is the key.

Pisco, I've heard this name before. Pisco brandy? Used as an ingredient for Pisco sours.......

As media is passing through an elbow the media tumbles in the corner.

How is this affecting air running through a properly piped and filtered shop air system? That H. freight set up is inadequate for a shop. That would be no different than running an airhose directly off your compressor; which many do and is wrong.

I used Copper type "L" as well with no problems .

Here is the best way to set a air system up for a shop.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

Here is the best way to set a air system up for a shop.

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf
I already posted that with the Sharpe diagram.:)

remember....you need volume for most air tools, not pressure. (size matters)

I used Copper type "L" as well with no problems .
You wouldn't, that's why "L" is used. It's even recommended as an option to galvy 3/4" by Sharpe and others. I don't see Eastwood posting up correct diagrams and minimal pipe sizes to provide the volume needed to run a shop. I see guys running 50 feet of 3/8" hose or smaller to their sandblaster and wonder why it won't perform. Not to mention tiny compressors.

I already posted that with the Sharpe diagram.:)

Sorry Scott,

I did not open your links. You can have all the glory for posting it.

You wouldn't, that's why "L" is used. It's even recommended as an option to galvy 3/4" by Sharpe and others. I don't see Eastwood posting up correct diagrams and minimal pipe sizes to provide the volume needed to run a shop. I see guys running 50 feet of 3/8" hose or smaller to their sandblaster and wonder why it won't perform. Not to mention tiny compressors.

You know, copper comes in "K" also. "K" is extra heavy though.

As media is passing through an elbow the media tumbles in the corner - How is this affecting air running through a properly piped and filtered shop air system? As air/fluid or any media you can imagine flows through a pipe/tube, the walls have friction and the media 'rolls' through the corridor - imagine a caterpillar track rolling through the inside circumference, or, removing a latex glove off your hand - it rolls off as you pull your hand out of the glove. If the corner is too tight, more friction is generated as the media can't 'roll' through the corner. The bigger the radius of corner, the better flow through the elbow.

Intake ports, exhaust headers, oil through oil galleys, do the same action. There is a cushion of media against the walls to provide a cushion for the main flow - friction keeps the cushion stationary.

Sorry Scott,

I did not open your links. You can have all the glory for posting it.
I'm not looking for it.:)
As air/fluid or any media you can imagine flows through a pipe/tube, the walls have friction and the media 'rolls' through the corridor - imagine a caterpillar track rolling through the inside circumference, or, removing a latex glove off your hand - it rolls off as you pull your hand out of the glove. If the corner is too tight, more friction is generated as the media can't 'roll' through the corner. The bigger the radius of corner, the better flow through the elbow.

Intake ports, exhaust headers, oil through oil galleys, do the same action. There is a cushion of media against the walls to provide a cushion for the main flow - friction keeps the cushion stationary.
I understand the fundamentals of friction and flow, but I'm talking about plumbing a shop using standard plumbing fittings. It is not practical, and sometimes not possible to run air line pipe with the same considerations as those of which you speak. I've never seen anyone not use a standard 90° fitting at building corners or any other 90° required when piping a shop.

I'm talking about plumbing a shop using standard plumbing fittings. It is not practical, and sometimes not possible to run air line pipe with the same considerations as those of which you speak. I've never seen anyone not use a standard 90° fitting at building corners or any other 90° required when piping a shop.Using cast iron pipe, of course not, nobody makes an curve.

Using cast iron pipe, of course not, nobody makes an curve.
Even if using copper, which should be 3/4", do you think the efficiency would dramatically increase as to warrant this type of installation? What about areas in the building that deter such an approach? The tight bend required at filter locations and multiple drops, inside corners in limited space. I don't think shop airline piping necessitates such engineering.

do you think the efficiency would dramatically increase as to warrant this type of installation? A straight line is the shortest route between two points and having the least amount of resistance to the flow. Install an elbow, a T for a branch, or any accessory, flow is reduced. Add more elbows, flow is reduced more.

The idea is design the piping system for the most volume at the end of the branch. By replacing elbows with curves lessens the reduction in the corners, using Y's for the branch instead of a T with the single leg of the Y pointed at the source, lessens the resistance to flow. The most resistive item in the branch is the filter regulator block.

A piping system for a small shop, it is what it is. Piping for a four acre building where the compressor/conditioner is at one end of the building supplying 130 PSI into a 4 inch piping system and the last branch at the other end and the employee needs max 30 PSI, OSHA std, for the blowgun and he has 10 PSI. barely enough to blow dust balls, then it's a problem - 47 elbows, four reducers - 4 to 3 to 1 to 3/4 branch.

Let me get the next round so we can watch the Jets-Patriots or Seattle-Chicago - Go Bears. Your choice.

The idea is design the piping system for the most volume at the end of the branch. By replacing elbows with curves lessens the reduction in the corners, using Y's for the branch instead of a T with the single leg of the Y pointed at the source, lessens the resistance to flow.

A piping system for a small shop, it is what it is. Piping for a four acre building where the compressor/conditioner is at one end of the building supplying 130 PSI into a 4 inch piping system and the last branch at the other end and the employee needs max 30 PSI, OSHA std, for the blowgun and he has 10 PSI. barely enough to blow dust balls, then it's a problem - 47 elbows, four reducers - 4 to 3 to 1 to 3/4 branch.


No one I know with a shop, or any I worked in over the years, goes to such measures as you suggest, and none ever had inadequate air. The last shop was piped in the "inefficient" method. Four fulltime employees, 14 car capacity plus the spray booth. Which is a small shop. We never ran out of air. It was piped with 1" and 3/4" pipe, as are most. The commercial sandblaster was 75 pipe feet away from the compressor, with elbows and never cried for air. I don't know how an automobile manufacturing plant is plumbed, maybe they do practice your installation methods to the letter. Nor have I worked in a 4 acre bodyshop. Any system would be better if it was able to be constructed to perform at peak efficiency, but practicality has to fall into the equation. I doubt shops operating without problems, large or small, are going to replumb their systems to add larger radii to every elbow possible. Even if they do read about the resistance and flow improvements it may provide. :)

Whew!--- I let this one sit a day or two and bam!---

Thanks for all the info guys (and some funny entertainment :D):rolleyes:..

It's been a long time in the need for my shop and I want to do this finally. :yes: Not sure how I coped all along without it.

So, for budget and ample quality for my purposes...

3/4" type L copper piping is my choice. Sounds like a plan. I will use that diagram shown in the link provided as I have seen before... Thanks!:beers:


Here's something I just found that I want to throw into this air-talk feeding frenzy....

http://www.garage-pak.com/

What about TYPE M copper piping? This certainly sounds strong enough for air pressure since it holds up to 690 psi pressure.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202521495/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


and then they carry HARD TEMPER TYPE L too.... 701 psi pressure...

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100354200/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

I plumbed mine with type M copper. At my old house it held up for 10 years w/o issue. Used it here as well.

I don't think the guys realized you are plumbing a 2 car garage that will have at the most one air tool running at any given time.

The big deal to me is to use metal pipe with a trap/filter as far away from the compressor as you can get it.

Even an air hose off the compressor is fine for occaisional use. The water condenses and sits at the bottom of the tank and doesn't cause problems. The problems start when you work the compressor hard. The air heats up, carries a lot of moisture, and sends it down the line. The copper will cool it back down and condense the moisture so the trap can catch it.

Another thing to consider is ergonomics. For example - if you are plumbing a drop to your workbench near the vise, which is where I put one. If you're right handed, put the drop to the right of where you'll be working, so the hose isn't crossing over your body. Stuff like that.

Nor have I worked in a 4 acre bodyshop. Any system would be better if it was able to be constructed to perform at peak efficiency, but practicality has to fall into the equation. And a nice bodyshop - two paint booths a Mack truck can drive into, also a PBM(plastic blast media) booth for the same, AWS D1.1 & D1.2 certified Weld Shop, complete machine shop and sheet metal shop, electronic & mechanical testing/repair for most anything.

We rebuild US military defense and communcations systems, the systems our kids use to protect themselves so they can be home at the end of their cruise/deployment.

As you said, small shops, it doesn't matter. Sometimes if the demand here, one comp, 100HP, can't keep up, the second one, 50 HP, will kick in. Scroll compressors.

Let me get the second round of ice cream.

I plumbed mine with type M copper. At my old house it held up for 10 years w/o issue. Used it here as well.

I don't think the guys realized you are plumbing a 2 car garage that will have at the most one air tool running at any given time.

The big deal to me is to use metal pipe with a trap/filter as far away from the compressor as you can get it.

Even an air hose off the compressor is fine for occaisional use. The water condenses and sits at the bottom of the tank and doesn't cause problems. The problems start when you work the compressor hard. The air heats up, carries a lot of moisture, and sends it down the line. The copper will cool it back down and condense the moisture so the trap can catch it.

Another thing to consider is ergonomics. For example - if you are plumbing a drop to your workbench near the vise, which is where I put one. If you're right handed, put the drop to the right of where you'll be working, so the hose isn't crossing over your body. Stuff like that.


Al-- well said. I will be moving to a home with a 3-car garage soon, but plan on transferring the current 2-car garage system over there and simply adding on to it later. I appreciate your input. :beers:

Copper comes in 3 different "grades". M = light, L = med, K = extra heavy. ""M" is NOT recommended.

Copper comes in 3 different "grades". M = light, L = med, K = extra heavy. ""M" is NOT recommended.


Can you tell us why M is not recommended? It can hold more than the PSI than anyone with a compressor would ever be using... please explain... It worked for Al for 10 years too... Just curious what your reason is.

Can you tell us why M is not recommended? It can hold more than the PSI than anyone with a compressor would ever be using... please explain... It worked for Al for 10 years too... Just curious what your reason is.

Type L and K copper pipe is acceptable for compressed air applications. Type M is NOT. Type M is usually used in residential homes for the fresh water supply lines. The pressure that a copper pipe can handle is dependant on the temperature and the size of the pipe - for more information, see Table 6, Publication 28E, of the CCBDA. The joints are usually rated for less pressure than the pipe.

THanks Donny. Makes sense... I guess the wall thickness on L and K is heavier then? I appreciate the warning and tips...:beers: Home Depot carries both, but MAN-- that will be expensive to do it with K or L:yes:. I guess it will be worth it in the long run... I should have done this years ago. I bought my compressor in 1997. :o

You can use L. K will kill your wallet !!

I saw that. L sounds better....:yes: Thanks again...

M = Light and L = Medium ?? Now that doesn't make any sense??

M = Medium and L = Light that makes sense. Who named this stuff ? :beers:

M = Light and L = Medium ?? Now that doesn't make any sense??

M = Medium and L = Light that makes sense. Who named this stuff ? :beers:

Thats NO typo Beth! LOL I agree.

There is a formula (you can Google it) for air volume drop per 10' depending on line size. 1/4" line will have more drop than 1" as will the pressure.

http://adlersantiqueautos.com/images/compressed2.jpg

I am not to sure about the shark bite type fitings from Harbor Freight or from any where to that matter.I dont recomend shark bite for anything.

Me being a Plumber have never heard M is medium its always the color involved Yellow=DWV,Red=M,Blue=L,Green=K.I used 3/4" black in my garage with 1/2" drops jumping up of the main water traps on all drops regulators in the runs.Its been in my garage about twenty five years.I have never seen a wye on air line or water line either.

The Harbor Freight kit looks a lot like the Eastwood kit. Check out the link.

Roger

http://search.eastwood.com/search?asug=air&w=air+line+kit&p=Q&ts=custom

And I think the Eastwood system is from Rapid Air:

http://www.rapidairproducts.com/

I used one of their systems, the Duratec product. Worked great, but a bit expensive, but saved a lot of time over black pipe.

The complaint that I heard about the Rapid Air style system was that the tubing would not lay completely flat. Plumbers could probably use a similar product called PEX, which looks a lot like the Duratec product. The tubing was even marked IPEX. But the fittings were the most expensive part.

-Kevin

I am not to sure about the shark bite type fitings from Harbor Freight or from any where to that matter.I dont recomend shark bite for anything.

Me being a Plumber have never heard M is medium its always the color involved Yellow=DWV,Red=M,Blue=L,Green=K.I used 3/4" black in my garage with 1/2" drops jumping up of the main water traps on all drops regulators in the runs.Its been in my garage about twenty five years.I have never seen a wye on air line or water line either.

The specs of the copper are printed right on the copper itself. Type M, type L or type K. Whatever the case. Yes I have seen copper color coded as well.