Ok tomorrow I'm gonna start drilling the spotwelds on my old floor pan. What did you guys do? I'm thinking of putting the car up on four jackstands and then crawling under the sides to get at the spot welds. This is a finished car with engine, wheels etc. Where is the best place to support these cars (69) with stands.

My ?? How do you get the floor pan out with a subframe there ??

Lyndon, Are you replacing the complete floor pan or partial(s) ? That's
going to make a big difference on the plan of attack.

it's a complete floor. From what I have read on here it can be done with the subframe in. I hope I'm not wrong about that.

There's a lot of things you have to contend with when changing the
complete floor. The leaf springs have to be out. The torque boxes are
welded to the floor as is the rear frame rails. The tranny should also be
out. If the subframe is still in than I think you will have to install the new
pan through the windshield. You need to brace the car from rocker to
rocker in some manner. I can't recall any posts showing full pan
replacement with the subframe installed but someone might have done it.

I do have the windshield out already and the dash is completely cut out. I hope someone can chime in here about doing this with the tranny in. I remember reading something about the springs being disconnected from the front mounts due to the torque box. I'm all ears.

Lyndon I'm more concerned for your safety here as I'm sure you are also.
With the motor and tranny in place it's a lot more weight to deal with.
You might be able to support the front with supports like Robert built
but the back end is a different story. I suggest you support it at the
frame rails in some manner. When you cut the rails to floor welds all
weight will be being carried by the trunk to inner wheel houses up through
the inner skeleton. Just be damn careful.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u109/allanjs/ScreenHunter_01Jun151854.gif

http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m610/ROBS6T8/wheelblk2.jpg

I'm gonna build some of those wheel stands in the pic. Now, am I wrong in assuming that if I support the car like this, It should be no different than if it were sitting on the ground? In which case I should be safe?

Lyndon, You'll have to judge that for yourself. You may want to build
the wooden supports a bit wider to cradle the tires deeper. It would
take a pretty good push but the car could roll. Also the front end is
still going to have some bounch due to the suspension. You may want to
consider removing part of the floor before you even lift the car. Just cut
into it from the top side and remove part of it in pieces. It would be easier
to handle it that way and most of the intense work, cutting, prying, etc.
would be done on the ground. Good luck and DON'T HOLD ME
RESPONSIBLE. These are just suggestions. I'm not sure if this can be done
with the tranny and subframe installed. Someone else will have to help
out with that.

I just finished installing a complete one piece floor pan in my 69 camaro and I removed the rear axle assembly, engine and trans, complete front subframe and support the body shell at the front and at the rear frame rails above where the axle runs. In my opinion I dont think this repair can be done correctly without removing the parts that I did. If somebody was going to do this repair leaving the parts that you are talking about I know I wouldnt want any part of the job and I dont think I would want the results that its going to get by doing it that way. Even with the parts removed it is a major job and if you want it done right and it not to be detectable when your finished. Just my personal opinion. good luck.

For floor replacement you have to remove four of the six bolts that hold the subframe on. I sure think it would be alot easier with the subframe out of the way. I'm assuming you want to do this with out removing the front sheet metal. I'm interested in knowing how you plan on welding the new floor in, after one hot spark down my shirt I built a rotisserie to do mine.

Jeff

I'm also interested in knowing how I'm going to weld the new floor in. After reading some of the responses to my question, I'm starting to think maybe I won't be. This all started because the car I have has a decent paint job, and doesn't need to be disassembled for any particular reason, but I did remove the interior to updated it and of course I found a fairly bad floor. I could swear I read a post somewhere about someone doing a full floor with the subfloor in, now I'm starting to wonder if I just dreamt that. Anyway, I'm going to keep looking for that thread, if it exists. I always thought that if it was possible to do it this way, it would be slow and painful, but I just can't see me getting the subrame out without some part of the paint getting damaged. I'm starting to feel trapped.

How bad is the floor? Post some pics and let's see. Guys who have done this job might be able to determine the best course of action. And welding upside down is a challenge.

You can remove your front clip without damaging the paint. Just need to be real careful and protect all edges. Feeling of entrapment happens sometimes with these old cars. You open the door just to look under the carpet then next thing you know your changing the headliner for some reason or other.

My wife has our camera in her purse right now. But it has holes in every corner including under the rear seat. It even has a bad drivers side toe board, which I plan to patch first. Another reason I'd like to avoid the subframe removal is the engine is fuel injected and there are a lot of wires going through the firewall for that. Ever since I got this thing, I look behind, under, inside of anything and all I find is more trouble. I've remained positive until now, but I think it's finally getting the better of me.

Lyndon,
There is some hope here.
It is possible to replace the floor pan without removing the front subframe. The subframe is attached to the body at 6 points. Only the back two are on the floor pan ( red circle). The front two are attached to the radiator support and the mid mounts are attached to the cowl/body assembly.

http://i742.photobucket.com/albums/xx68/casey69z/front_sub_assembly.jpg

I had my driver side floor pan replaced with only removing the interior. The rear sub frame mounts can be removed and the mid mounts will hold it if in good shape.
The mid mounts are the most important mounts. Heck my rear mount washers were completely rusted out and I was driving it around that way ( not knowing it)
You can do it with the front end and engine in. The back end is more difficult. My floor pan only needed the rear foot well replaced and the rear frames and front spring mounts were good. If you need the rear frame area worked on then you may need to remove the rear end. But that is easier and less disruptive than front.

We need to see pics of the damage and especially the rear area and spring mounts. How is trunk pan?

Thanks Casey, I was looking at it again today and I kept trying to find a reason why it couldn't be done, but I couldn't see one. I thought maybe I was missing something because I too could only see two of the six subframe bolts that were anywhere near the floor pan. I will try to get some pics, but believe me, there is no part of this floor pan that is any good. I have no e-brake cable, no rear brake lines, my shifter is almost out, and none of my exhaust hangers are attached to the floor. The trunk is not bad, the previous owner replaced just the center pan. I don't know how crazy this sounds but today when I was looking under it, I just jacked up one side and supported with jackstands front and rear. This allowed me to get my head and shoulders under the side and I felt that I could certainly reach the spotwelds along the rocker. I was thinking maybe I could do this one side at a time which would avoid completely raising a full weight car. Maybe that's wishful thinking but it looks possible to me.

Sorry. but I must be loosing something here, put a full floor pan in one side at a time??

Well sort of. Jack up one side of the car at a time and drill out the spot welds. Drill the front and rear spot welds out from inside the vehicle. Then drop in the complete new floor pan through the windshield then clamp it in place. Then jack up one side at a time and do the plug welds to the rockers. Do the remaining front and rear plug welds from inside the car?

Well sort of. Jack up one side of the car at a time and drill out the spot welds. Drill the front and rear spot welds out from inside the vehicle. Then drop in the complete new floor pan through the windshield then clamp it in place. Then jack up one side at a time and do the plug welds to the rockers. Do the remaining front and rear plug welds from inside the car?

Lyndon, You have to disconnect the leaf springs from the torque boxes
(front mounts). The springs will not cooperate in a twisted state. To say
nothing about the twist you'll put into the rear frame rails. I don't see how
your going to support the car safely doing one side at a time when both
side leaf springs will have to be released at the same time. Also, don't
forget about the gas line (welding).

Yeah you're probably right about the back end. I feel confident that I can avoid seperating the subframe up front, now I just have to figure out how to deal with the back.

I think I would remove the rear end and put the stands under the frame rails above where the rear end used to be. I would put the car up one time and try not to move the stands or jack the car up with the floor pan removed.

Jeff

I agree Jeff, removing the rear might do it. Ironically I had intended to swap the rear at a later time because the current one is the 8.2 inch with open differential. Of course this means I now have to get my new diff. assembled and all parts purchased. Man sometimes it's like constantly walking backwards. And I've never driven this thing. I wonder when I ever will.

You could put the old rear end back until the funds show up for the new one and have a drivable car while you work some of the other bugs out. I started to do some upgrades to mine back in 1987 and haven't driven it since. I'm gonna work on it today, Hope to blast it down the street this year at least once.

Jeff

Ok Jeff I'm gonna officially stop complaining. 1987 was a long time ago, and if you can find the motiviation to keep getting out there to work on it, I admire you for it. I hope we both get them out there this year.

I am sure there are a lot of others out there with long time restoration stories. I bought my 69z in 1983. Rebuilt the engine, replaced exhaust, brakes and drove it daily 20k miles then decided to restore it. Been working on it ever since. Drove it 5 miles in 1992 into new garage at new house. Family, job and money got in the way until recently and finding this site got me back into it again. The project is still moving slowly but I see light at the end. But you know it is fun working on it. I don't think it will ever be "finished". There will always be some improvement that could be made. If I finish I will have to start a new project.

I just want to chime in here with my two cents... because that is about all it's worth! HA! Anyway...

I think there is a difference in that it can be done or should be done in this case... I cannot speak for anyone with a car with the subframe attached (I got my car as a roller (no engine/tranny) and started digging into it to find rot EVERYWHERE.

I never had an engine/transmission in mine, but I can say that I cannot imagine doing this replacement properly while trying to work around the drivetrain... There are about 1.5 million spot welds holding the floorpan in place. Trying to work around the drive train while the car is only a couple of feet from the floor will be difficult.

I am not saying that it cannot be done, I am saying that it may be so difficult that you may easily get discouraged and either say "well, that is good enough" and half a$$ it (which you may want to reconsider due to the structural importance of the floorpan) or you may put it off because it will take more of your time that you anticipated and before you know it your car has been sitting in the garage for two years and it turns into a parts shelf (Help me out here Todd!)

I enjoy coming to this forum because I know that there are tons of people on here that run into the same problems as you and I do. We get to a part of our project and we try to find out the best/easiest way to do things. What I also like about this forum is that there are people on here that genuinely care that these cars and their drivers/owners are safe. I think the general consensus is that you should remove the drivetrain (EFI wires or not) If you label everything it should so back together smoothly...

Disclaimer: you are going to remove the floor however you see fit. The people on here just want to make sure that you are safe. If you can remove/install the floor with the drivetrain installed safely, go for it! However, I think that the cumulative experience here on the forum says to remove the subframe.

Which ever way you choose to do it, be safe and measure twice, cut once!