Points condenser references. [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: Points condenser references.


69Z28
Oct 7th, 11, 12:59 PM
Is there a reference anywhere that will tell you what points condenser was used in the 480 Z28 distributor? I have a condenser with DR-227 U.S.A. on the bottom with green wire that I have had for years, looks brand new but not sure if this is correct.

Thanks

Vintage 68
Oct 7th, 11, 01:44 PM
There's the "Old Guy" reference :thumbsup:

The condensor number was AC/Delco #D-204 (GM #1932004 [group 2.393]).

HP GM applications, like the 69 Z, used the D-106HP point set.

Good info from past posts - http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-50303.html

69Z28
Oct 7th, 11, 02:17 PM
Can the DR-227 be used as a suitable replacement? Or can the 204 condenser still be had? Or???? I plan on using the Borg-Warner A112HP points just curious about the condenser now.




There's the "Old Guy" reference :thumbsup:

The condensor number was AC/Delco #D-204 (GM #1932004 [group 2.393]).

HP GM applications, like the 69 Z, used the D-106HP point set.

Good info from past posts - http://www.camaros.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-50303.html

Vintage 68
Oct 7th, 11, 02:38 PM
Okay, I did a quick cross-reference check for "DR-227" and can only find a set of points #DR-2270 from Standard Ignition Parts that fits that number series ...
The recommended condensor for that set is DR-70.

A quick check shows Summit Racing has the condensor - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SMP-DR70

And :yes: the AC/Delco #D-204 is still available - from Summit also :thumbsup:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACF-D204

69Z28
Oct 7th, 11, 03:35 PM
Thanks for the info Vintage. Now the questions are do I use the D204 or find out what JohnZ is using with the Borg-Warner A112HP points, or does it really matter?




Okay, I did a quick cross-reference check for "DR-227" and can only find a set of points #DR-2270 from Standard Ignition Parts that fits that number series ...
The recommended condensor for that set is DR-70.

A quick check shows Summit Racing has the condensor - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SMP-DR70

And :yes: the AC/Delco #D-204 is still available - from Summit also :thumbsup:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACF-D204

Vintage 68
Oct 7th, 11, 04:09 PM
The manufacturer of the condensor really doesn't matter, they are rated in Mf and are spec.d for a given systems voltage.
Most common automotive units are @ 0.25-0.29mf.

The G120 should be the correct condensor for those points ...

69Z28
Oct 8th, 11, 11:34 AM
Hi John. Can I assume the G120 is BW part? I'll check out Summit. I'm trying to gather all the parts I need to do my 480 to JohnZs articles.




The manufacturer of the condensor really doesn't matter, they are rated in Mf and are spec.d for a given systems voltage.
Most common automotive units are @ 0.25-0.29mf.

The G120 should be the correct condensor for those points ...

Vintage 68
Oct 11th, 11, 11:00 AM
A quick call to Summit revealed they don't carry any Borg Warner tune-up parts.
I called a friend at the local NAPA, and while they didn't have that part in stock right now they do carry BW stuff - he could have it to store in 1 day :thumbsup:

dyno jonn
Oct 11th, 11, 03:25 PM
My 1969 Delco catalogue shows D204 as the condenser and D112P as the correct high rpm point set for a 1111480 distributor. A D308R cap and D409R rotor make the set complete. The D106HP is a point set with a larger contact surface normally found in taxi cabs. It has a low tension spring and is not reccomended for high rpm use.

Fred Ficarra
Oct 11th, 11, 04:20 PM
Is this the Restoration Corner?:confused: Points? Why?

69Z28
Oct 11th, 11, 06:09 PM
HI Fred. I'm just getting mine rebuilt and the curve set up on it just in case my DAVE RAY Small Body HEI quits on me. I plan on having a back up just in case. My car is unrestored but has loads of the correct parts missing. I really don't want to restore it. Way too nice as is.




Is this the Restoration Corner?:confused: Points? Why?

DjD
Oct 11th, 11, 07:12 PM
HI Fred. I'm just getting mine rebuilt and the curve set up on it just in case my DAVE RAY Small Body HEI quits on me. I plan on having a back up just in case. My car is unrestored but has loads of the correct parts missing. I really don't want to restore it. Way too nice as is.

You don't need to explain yourself to Fred!

Oh, and check the back pages of the '69 Chassis Service Manual for all the info you need on any '69 Chevrolet engine tuning spec's and parts.

Vintage 68
Oct 12th, 11, 09:48 AM
My 1969 Delco catalogue shows ... D112P as the correct high rpm point set for a 1111480 ...

... The D106HP is a point set with a larger contact surface normally found in taxi cabs. It has a low tension spring and is not reccomended for high rpm use.

Then it must be the late edition of the Standard Duty cat. ;)
They are specifically designed with a lower profile wiring attachment point and a more compact overall footprint to fit under the 'Shielding' system employed on some late production passenger vehicles.
The D112P points weren't available until the later part of 1969 ...
Prior to that date the SD manuals recommended the D106PS or the D106HP.
And the Heavy Duty manuals continued to list the D106PS/HP for years after the SD manual changed, until the D106 sets were discontinued in the 70's ...

The D106HP (GM #1948671) does have a larger contact area - by design ... :thumbsup:
But, the surface area of them is almost the same as the 'standard' set ...
The "HP" contact area has a large hole in the center of the fixed contact to act as a air exclusion chanel to prevent point bounce (due to air pressure getting between the contact surfaces and causing contact 'stand-off') at high RPM. (Some other manufactures have used grooves, cross-chanels and holes for this also)
The contacts were bonded to the fixed side and were formulated from a different material than the D106P (standard duty point set found in 99% of GM production vehicles) - they contain a high Tungsten content to give them a harder surface less prone to 'high-break' tension arcing and wear - very common on High Performance vehicles of the time when a higher output coil was employed, like in racing "back-in-the-day".

The Spring IS NOT the low tension design - it even has more tension than used on the D112P set :yes:
The Spring will test @25~28 Oz of pull-off tension, 'Standard' sets will test @20 or so Oz ...
Either of these is good for over 8000 RPM on a well set-up GM dist. - I've tested hundreds of them btw ...
The "Difference" is the size of the contacts on the D106HP sets vs. the D112P sets - the D112's have a small contact pad that was prone to arcing and pitting when used in high-performance applications. A set of stock points was good for a very short period of time if you changed to a higher amp draw coil, like one of the common Mallory units available, for better spark performance. The 'HP' sets would stand up to this demand with no problems for a very-very-very long time ...
And - since we seldom rev'd our engines to above 8000 RPM (on purpose anyway ...) we experienced NO point float/bounce (producing spark scatter) at all :noway:

The D106P and D112P sets also had a soft Plastic cam follower, they were prone to wearing very fast under high RPM use. As they wore the dwell went away and your coil output dropped off until you experienced miss-fire - had it happen a bunch when using them :sad:
The HP sets used 'Bakelite' cam followers - they were harder and did not wear down like the standard set followers did under HD/HP use.

I still believe the reason GM phased-out/discontinued the D106 series was more due to mechanics trying to install them under the 'Shielding' system and the wiring contacts or screws would be in contact with the shield effectively grounding the ignition and preventing a spark.
I know several mechanics that removed the 'new' set and re-installed the 'old' (D112 type) orginal set to "fix" this - with the customer not knowing they just got cheated out of a set of points :mad:
I worked at a parts store back then and had quite a few guys return D106 sets saying "they don't work, I had to install the old set to get the guy on the road" - I would then 'edu-ma-cate' them on the D112 set ...


Soooo - bottom line, the D106HP WAS the set recommended by GM for Performance use :yes:
And ... as is often the case - the 'HP' part just also happens to be the 'HD' part, just as "truck" parts are often found in 'racing' applications 'back-in-the-day' ...

ps: :yes: The D106PS/HP sets were listed and recommended in the "Fleet", "Industrial" and "Marine" parts manuals :p
So it would be common to find them in Taxi's, Police/Fire equipment, Industrial engines and even Marine applications ...

Vintage 68
Oct 12th, 11, 09:51 AM
Is this the Restoration Corner?:confused: Points? Why?


Because only the "Restoration" guys are keeping their 'points' systems :hurray:

The Electrical forum usually has threads about 'changing' the system to something else, or 'fixing' what they changed to ...

dyno jonn
Oct 12th, 11, 04:21 PM
Then it must be the late edition of the Standard Duty cat.

The D112P points weren't available until the later part of 1969 ...

Prior to that date the SD manuals recommended the D106PS or the D106HP.



Without digging out my GM special parts manual, I found the D112P listed as the preferred point set for all Corvettes starting in 1966 (except base engines and transistor ignition). The catalogue I was quoting was printed in October 68, with late 68 info and updated 69 info. I worked parts at a Delco garage and auto parts store from 1969 through 1981 (plus other parts stores and warehouses through 2006) and kept a lot of the more interesting catalogues when new ones came in. Kept a few (mostly Delco related) buyers guides, picture books, various thick parts breakdown catalogues for starters, generators, alternators etc. and also a six inck thick breakdown on Rochester carburetors. If you're looking for info, I may have it.

Vintage 68
Oct 13th, 11, 05:03 PM
:confused: Don't know why they would reference a part not even available at Chevy dealers and not containing the same design as the original for an older vehicle - but hey GM did a lot of silly thing when trying to cut stocking volumes ...

The D112P points were engineered specifically for the "Shielded" type distributors as I stated before. Shielded distributors were needed once GM started embedding the Antenna Wire into the windshields of their vehicles.
*Chevrolet adopted the RPO-U76 windshield antenna in the 1970 models - other GM models (Cad./Olds) had them as early as 1967/68 ;)
The D112P points are also friction connector contact sets (no screw for the coil/condenser connectors, they just slip under spring).
These would cause issues at high RPMS as the point set got to bouncing around and spring harmonics messed with the connector pressure ausing a noticable amount of saturation loss to the coil, resulting in miss-fire and/or weak spark output ...

For performance all the folks I knew of insisted on using a 'screw' type points set - D106PS and D106HP are both screw type, not friction contact.

Odd that they would list an item not even used on Chevrolet vehicles before the 70's* ...
But, given that it's the United Delco Sevices Div. parts list and not the Chevrolet Parts manual I don't find it out of the norm.
United Delco tended to supply parts to the independent and over-the-counter repair folks vs. GM dealer network.

The Chevrolet Master Parts manuals referenced the #1931988(D106P) and the #1966288(D106PS) sets long after the jobber reference materials changed to #1266294(D112) set.
You have to look specificlly at the HD/HP manuals to find the #1948671(D106HP) set ...

BTW - My nieghbor in So.Cal. was the 1st UMS/United Delco Services W.D. (located in Santa Ana) starting in 1966.
I worked for him for a few summers during H.S. and had fantastic access to all kinds of Delco-Remy service and parts manuals.
Quite a few years after I left to persue a career I stopped by to visit and he asked if I wanted 'all those old manuals you used to read in the back' - of course I jumped on his offer!
He passed away not long after that - great man, supporter and friend to all the 'car-folk' in the area :sad:
Love being able to refer to them from time to time :yes:

Use what you want, but I'll guarantee I can out-rev. those D112's with my D106HP's anyday ;)
Besides ... anyone who's pushed Delco distributors over 8~8.5K will know the base plate gets to wobblin' all over, so no matter what set of points you use the spark signal goes to he11 anyway :yes:

Fred Ficarra
Oct 19th, 11, 09:06 PM
You don't need to explain yourself to Fred!

l:)