Or Mr Grumpy needs help Part II:

Please refrence: http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum5/HTML/002440.html

Ok lets start this fresh from where we are today (Jess is on graves so I really haven't been able to lend a hand so I've been giving him my parts each night before he heads off to work and he trys them the next morning!!)

Car won't idle for more than a few minutes but now it's stable at 900rpm until it starts acting up. We've run his dist on my car and now my carb on his car. The problem persists. Tonight he brought my carb back and left with my coil and the plate I have between the carb and manifold (for my TV assembly) I suggested a new cap and rotor as well before we start looking into at taking compression and leakdown.

The one thing that has us wondering is a bit of yellowish almost milkish residue on the carbs baseplate where the tube for the PCV is. I see it as oil being sucked into the carb from the valve cover and mixing with fuel. We both have the same baffled covers and my mill makes more vacuum and stays clean in the same area. John Z menttioned too much crankcase pressure blowing out the rear manifold gasket, add in the blow-by in the PCV port and maybe this is an internal issue. The plugs don't foul or load up so we are running out of bolt on options...

Gone over all vacuum fitting and brake booster, put rags soaked in ice water around the base of the carb, Run with the PCV port blocked off and I feel we have the tuning part down pat. If you review from the start it really has come a long way. With all the slop out of the system we are left with the real problem so to speak. If Jess get time at work tonight I'm sure he can add to some of this. Thanks for the support on this one guys, I guess we'll know more tommrow night.

If you haven't seen pic's of Jess' car here are a couple. The engine compartment hs been restored back to factory from the the way it use to look... http://www.camaroslimited.com/memberscars/jess.htm

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) our local club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"
and the "daily driver" (http://chevelles.com/showroom/DjD/dsc00016.jpg)

DJD,
You touched on everything. This morning the car seemed to idle quite nicely. Once warmed the longest it would idle was for 4 minutes, that's enough to get through a stop light. Does anyone have any ideas on the oilly milky gue in the PCV port of the carb?? It's also soaking the carb gasket in that area. Is this a bad sign for the heads? I'll know a little more tomorrow and then my next step is to do a compression and leak down test. If anyone knows how to do these tests in detail please e-mail me, thanks.
Just got some incredible news today. Found out the wife is 11 wks pregnant. Went to the Dr. today and had an ultrasound, saw the baby movin around. Maybe I'll get this Z running right by the time he/she can drive. I'll start early by reading it shop manuals and maybe it can wrench for me. Thanks for all the help guys.

Mr. G

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Jess - Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
69 Z/28 Lemans Blue

Whitish milky last I knew was water mixed with oil common to head leaks or jacket breaks between oil and water passages. Hope not. If you've ever had the valve covers off it might be evident. Does muck show up at the radiator cap when cool....possible oil into water jacket from jacket leak or heads. Maybe there is a slight leak and the stuff pops up from the steamed slight moisture and oil fumes. If you have a breather to carb hook up disconnect it and see if the problem stops. Puts a new meaning to vapor lock if so. I know it's been allot of posts but maybe look at the plugs hot cold correct type or if they have rust. You can remember the old forgot to plug it in routine. Maybe the battery is up to 12 or better but it doesn't have the amps to carry the weight when idling drops real amps for life and the engine dies since the generator isn't keeping things amps up. Are you using an electric fuel pump and reduced turns pulleys. Good luck. I hope it isn't temperature rises dumping more steam into the piston area at a leaking area. Does the engine run rough right before dying? I'd think it would do that with low voltage or a bad seal between oil and water. Once again good luck. Put a piece of white paper at the exhaust one at a time and see if any one of them is blowing crud like water. Anything and everything.

The brownish goo in the pcv might be from condensation building up in the crankcase. This will happen if the car is only run for short periods of time, without letting it completely warm up. This sounds like what you've been doing lately while trying to diagnose your problem.
As for the problem itself, just a couple of basic things to check that I don't think have been mentioned. Is the vacuum canister working properly, ie. when you apply vacuum, can you see the baseplate move? Check for corrosion in or on distributor cap terminals? Cracked high voltage tower on coil? Have the heads been milled, and if so, was it enough to cause an alignment problem with the intake? If you have iron exhaust manifolds, is the heat riser valve opening when it warms up?

[This message has been edited by Kyvox (edited 12-12-2002).]

Hey! Isn't that false advertising? http://www.camaros.net/forum/frown.gif I want the wheels and tires.

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68 Coupe, 350 4-speed
Jim's Camaro Corner (http://www.personal.psu.edu/jxu109/)

Grumpy,

You can do a compression check with an inexpensive compression gauge that you can pickup at your favorite auto store or Sears. (or Dennis!) You just remove the coil wire so the engine won't start, remove a spark plug and either screw the compression gauge in the plug hole or just hold it there. Depends on the type you use. Have someone turn the engine over a few times and watch the gauge. Do it for each cylinder and write the numbers down to compare each.

For a leak down test, you'll need an air compressor and some type of air gauge with a T fitting on it. You screw one end of the T into a spark plug hole and attach the compressor to the other, with the gauge in between. Pump some air into the cylinder (not sure how much pressure?), stop the air, and watch the gauge. Make sure all the air line fittings are totally air-tight first. If it holds the pressure for a few minutes, that cylinder and rings are probably OK. Go around the each cylinder and watch the gauge. If the air escapes and you see the gauge needle decreasing slowely, there may be a problem with that bore or rings.

The first thing I thought of when Dennis said "oily/milky" mess was water in the oil! But like Kyvox said, that can happen when an engine isn't allowed to warm up and run at operating temp. for a while. Cars that are only driven a couple miles at a time have that problem.

Good luck and CONGRATULATIONS on becoming a father (again?) My best to you and your wife! Santa came early!


------------------
Joe
WCA Member
1969 Wallet Crusher
- HwyStar@Rochester.rr.com

HwyStar's Garage! (http://www.geocities.com/hwystarjoe/index.html)

[This message has been edited by HwyStarJoe (edited 12-12-2002).]

I agree with every thing suggested here. Does the thermostat work correctly?

As Joe suggested, use a good compression gauge, one that screws into the spark plug hole. Remove all the plugs and tie throttle to WOT. Remove power to ign system.

Cylinder leakage test is usually done with a dual tester. First gauge is set on 100 psi, second gauge reads cylinder pressure, the amount of leakage.

The formula is: 100-second gauge reading divided by 100%. This gives the answer in percent of leakage. I would believe anything over 7-9% would not be a ggod thing.

While the leak tester is in place, one can listen for leakage, intake for intake valve, exhaust for exh valve, and oil fill cap for ring leakage.

To troubleshoot this problem, I'd probably crank curb idle up to 1600-1800 rpm, use a vacuum gauge and tune for max, then slowly work throttle down to 950-1000 rpm, dependent upon cam specs.

Again, CONGRATULATIONS on the newbie!!!

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Everett "OBJECTS IN THE MIRROR APPEAR QUICKLY UPON RAPID DECELERATION"

[This message has been edited by Everett#2390 (edited 12-12-2002).]

I want the wheels Dennis. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif Jess, first kid? I don't have anymore to offer as far as the car goes. We need the compression and or leak down figures from here. I know your frusrtation. My 327 still idles at 1000 rpm with 6" of manifold vac. with a 222 duration 447 lift cam. I've gone thru at least as much crap as you have so far. I gave up and just run the car. It pulls hard and gets 15.4 MPG Go figure.

Dennis can I have the headlight washer solenoid? Please? Trade ya the neighbors barking dashound for it even up http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif
click

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69RS 350/255 LM1, Balanced, TRW forged pistons, .30 over, TH-350 auto.,
Dover White,Blue Vinyl top, F&R spoilers,pdb, close ratio ps,am/fm,3.08 Posi., A/C, fold down rear seat
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

Unfortunatly I don't have the gauges to do either test. I do have compressed air though. As for the title Jess has been refering to my car as "The Parts Car" all week so I just played off that. http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

The not warming up the engine long enough to burn off moisture is a possibility I pondered but didn't give much weight to it as the times I was present the mill was up to temp and had been running for long periods of time.

Ok, here's todays status figures. Z=20 Me=0.
Last night I raided my parts car and came off with some goodies. I swapped DJD's coil and 1/8" carb base plate. Still no difference. Went and bought a new cap and installed, no difference. When I idle the car, it idle for a good 30-40 minutes before stalling, once warmed. After reading the posts, and it being a nice day I drove the Z around today, 25 minutes or so. When I removed the 1/8" base plate noticed the oilly goo still there, now alot more running down the intake. I may not have run it long enough, but that's kinda odd. This morning before starting the Z I checked the oil and water level. Both seemed ok neither seemed to have the other in it.
I talked to the guy that did the heads, explaned the problem. He's willing to look at the car and stand behind his work. I'm gona run the compression and leak down test before taking it down and after these storms blow over.
Thanks for the kind words on our new arrival and for all the posts. I'll keep evryone informed.
DJD took a pic of the engine compartment, sent it over. I would post it if I knew how, sorry.

Mr. G


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Jess - Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
69 Z/28 Lemans Blue

Here's a current pic of Jess's engin bay. The one on the page above is before putting things back factory.

http://chevelles.com/showroom/DjD/jess302.jpg

Jess- I have a good compression tester gage package. Also with some slight modifications I think this can also be turned in to a leak down tester. Let me know if you want / need to use it.
Mark (A.K.A. Z28 Mark)

DJD + Mr Grumpy-

I read in a previous post that David Pozzi made a comment about an MSD product. Can you tell me exactly what you have for a dist/coil/box? I had a problem with a 6AL box, once the car got to running temp would run similar to the problems stated. It had a cold solder joint in the box....go figure.

Secondly, give this a try and tell me what happends, its fairly easy.....when you have the engine running and it is warm, pull the PCV off the valve cover and plug the end of the PCV with your finger and tell me if you hear any noises or changes in idle/running quality.

One last thing, you also stated that you had the booster rebuilt...possible vaccume leak? I have had new bosters fail this before too.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chicane67:
DJD + Mr Grumpy-

I read in a previous post that David Pozzi made a comment about an MSD product. Can you tell me exactly what you have for a dist/coil/box? I had a problem with a 6AL box, once the car got to running temp would run similar to the problems stated. It had a cold solder joint in the box....go figure.

Secondly, give this a try and tell me what happends, its fairly easy.....when you have the engine running and it is warm, pull the PCV off the valve cover and plug the end of the PCV with your finger and tell me if you hear any noises or changes in idle/running quality.

One last thing, you also stated that you had the booster rebuilt...possible vaccume leak? I have had new bosters fail this before too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

chicane67 - Both Jess and I have "Dave's small body HEI's" and we have run his in my car with no sign of problems. We both run the Accel coil recomended by Dave. The booster was rebuilt a while back and we have checked and it's sealed properly. It's been a couple of weeks since I was last able to help Jess directly but when I pulled the PCV out of the valve cover I believe the rpm went up just slightly and when I plugged the vacuum leak it came back down. I think Jess change the PCV recently and recently he actually plugged the port on the carb and the problem persisted.

Jess when you changed the cap today did you also replace the rotor???

DJD I didn't change the rotor being we left it in place when testing the distributor on your car and seemed to do fine.
I've done a few tests with the PCV plugged at the carb and it made no difference?
Z28Mark maybe I can swing by sometime this weekend, if you don't mind, and borrow your gage.


Mr. G

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Jess - Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
69 Z/28 Lemans Blue

I think it's time to put it on an exhaust analyzer and see what's coming out there. It will at least show up if you have a rich or lean condition when having the problem.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

Hey Jess,
I’m working until noon / 1:00pm on Saturday, but I could swing by after that (I’ll call first) I think I still have your # (Monica gave it to me back in the “club” days). I’ll do almost anything for a friend in need (with a COOL Camaro).
Mark (A.K.A. Z28 Mark)
P.S. I live off Lean Ave. at HWY 85

The milky goo in the PCV port on the carb base and in the intake is not a good sign - the only place it can come from is through the PCV valve, which means it's coming from the oil vapors inside the valve cover. The only thing I know of that makes oil into milky goo is water/anti-freeze; coolant is getting into your oil from somewhere - either a leak at one of the four coolant ports in the heads at the intake manifold joint, or from a cracked head.

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JohnZ
CRG
'69 Z28 Fathom Green

I pulled the pcv side valve cover off to have a look see. It looked normal. I had water in the oil before, heads not being torqued down properly, and it was nasty. I had water blowing out the tail pipes, in the oil. Inside of the valve covers were almost white.
Questions??? Will the compression and leak down test tell me if I have a cracked head? Also if by change, if I messed up some how on the intake installation could this be causing the goo. I dought it did but I figred I'd ask. I don't remember the goo before but was never really looking for it.

It's storming like crazy so I'm kinda limited, but can still work on the compression test. Thanks for the loan for the compression gage, MarkZ28.
Thanks for the replys guys.

Mr G

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Jess - Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
69 Z/28 Lemans Blue

It won't necessarily tell you if the head is cracked or not, but will tell us if there's a problem in 1 or 2 cylinders, or maybe 3 or 4 but I doubt there's a problem with that many if there was a problem there. The tests can suggest problems. If you had say, 70 lbs. in 1 cylinder only, it could mean a few things. Broken rings, worn rings, valve not closing, intake or exhaust because of, 1. the spring is broke or 2. the valve is bent, or 3. the seat has a big crack. If 2 adjoining cylinders are low, it could suggest head gasket. See what I mean. It's more of a guide as to where to go from here if you know what I mean. I'm sure I've left something out, but there's always someone with more knowledge than me to help. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

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Steve
67 396 race car project
67 SS 396,4-sp mothballed for resto
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350, under current resto
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

Once you have water in the oil like you did, you aren't going to get all the residual water out with just one oil change. The white gunk can collect here and there and may go away with heat, time, and added oil changes.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

Had 350 milky colored threw pc little in valves.Rings were cracked in 6 cylinders.Would not idle smoked just a little still ran like crap.Do a leak test.

Jess, Glad to hear about the baby! Sorry about the Z. I've read all the posts a couple times and thought I'd throw this in. It appears the problem arises after engine warm up. I would try to manipulate the time it takes to warm up the motor just to confirm the problem coincided with engine warm-up. Try placing a piece ofcardboard in front of the radiator and see if the idle problem coincides with the earlier warm-up. If so and in light of the milky flow at the carb pcv port I would look at a cracked head. Here's what I think may be happening. Engine starts cold and runs fine till full warm-up. Once engine reaches operating temp the cooling system has built up pressure forcing coolant to mist into the crankcase were the pvc picks it up and delivers it to the intake. The moisture introduced into the engine is causing it to die and the resulting hard starting. Another way to check this would be to keep the engine from warming up in it's normal time by blowing a window fan into the radiator at start up. If you can manipulate the occurance and relate it to engine warm-up you might get a little closer to the cause. I know you said you ran it with the pcv plugged but if you did that the hose connected to the air cleaner base would then pull fom the crankcase. Have you looked in that hose for oil/water? On second thought I'm sure you've ran the motor without the air cleaner so that scenario is unlikely. Just thinking out loud about some things that haven't been covered. Hang in there. Think of all the experience your getting.

Good luck,

John

Have you tried an alternate fuel source? (jerry can) How old is the fuel in the tank? how does it smell?

keep us posted...

John

Well we just swapped engines and that fixed it!! LOL just kidding!!!! I know the fuel is fresh and lots of miles since the head gasket was replaced. And... Jess changes oil like most of us change our shorts.. For those of you that are going http://www.camaros.net/forum/eek.gif "That's not very often!" remember I said most of us!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

John, you may be onto something, if Jess has seen your post and has the time he's out in the garage cutting up cardboard. Would a radiator pressure test both cold and hot help tell the tail?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DjD:
Jess changes oil like most of us change our shorts<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hopefully he doesn't turn his oil inside out, and re-use it. But I guess that would be better than not using any shorts (or oil if you're following along) http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

Dennis/Jess,
Cold, the radiator/cooling system will have no pressure. Once the engine reaches operating temp the cooling system typically runs btween 10 and 13 psi. Water pump pressure is not enough to force liquid through a small crack or leaking gasket at a high enough rate to form a mist which could be picked up by the pcv system. As you know the water pump circulates the water not pressurizes it. I could be all wet here (pun intended) but it seems you guys have systematically eliminated most everything else. Problems like this usually end up being something very simple or basic.

John

Thanks for the replys. I'll try the cardboard over the radiator and fan idea. Yeah, this only starts once the engine is completely warmed up. Usually sitting idle for 30-35 minutes or bring it up to 180 then go for a drive around the block then BAM! no idle. I'm really picky about my Z. I'll bring it up to 180 before I mave it and inch. I change the oil alot, depending on how much driving I do. I barely put 3200 miles on it this year and I've canged the oil 4 times already. When I first bought the car, about a year or so after I spun a crank bearing and was told it was due to lack of oil changes. As for the water in the oil,(the previous time, about 2 years now) the motors been out since then and gone through, loooooong story.
I'd really hate to hear it's the heads. I just went over the receipt for the head work in March and they PSI tested them. Now, if this is a small leak and only occurs when the heads, engine, etc is completely warmed would they have found a crack? Forgot to mention, the other day when I had the Z out, someone mentioned about putting a white pice of paper by the tail pipes to see if anything comes out or shows up. Nothing, I did both sides and had the wife step on the gas a few times. the paper look just as white and dry as before the test.
As soon as this weather clears I'll get on the test. Thanks for keeping the ideas coming.


Mr. G


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Jess - Camaros Limited Nor-Cal
69 Z/28 Lemans Blue

Good one John. Like that idea. Didn't think of that one.

remember that metal expands when it gets warmed up, which will allow a crack to open enough to let water to go through. I had a 350 with a crack in the water jacket that only leaked when it was hot, so the first time I put the stop-leak in the radiator and ran it, I thought it was fixed. turned out when it ran again for a long time it was still leaking. (hey I was 17, in high school and my budget was big enough for a can of stop-leak)

To check for water in the oil, crack the drain plug when the engine is cold. The water will go to the bottom of the pan and comes out first.
I had a tractor with a leaky sleeve. I put a radiator drain cock on the oil pan to drain the water out of the engine before startup.
We got another year's use out of it. The block was shot due to corrosion in the sleeve O ring area and couldn't be saved anyway.
We stepped up oil changes and added "block sealer" to the radiator.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327 original owner. 69 Camaro Vintage Racer, 65 Lola T-70 Chev SB Can-Am Vintage Racer

also try putting a very cold t-stat in so the car will run at a max of like 160 and see what that does. I too believe manipulating the temp will aid in the diagnosis. I have tried to read and re-read but its a long post. Have you tried propane enrichment as it starts to die. It should be able to start and idle on propane. I am skeptical of the vapors into the pcv hose theory I would think coolant would freely flow into the crankcase if the vapors were able to enter. My opinion leans toward a fuel supply/delivery problem. I would take a vac pump and test the fuel supply line for sucking air as well as fuel. but the propane will tell you if it is a lean condition. I wish you were closer I love to troubleshoot.
Best wishes, congradulation on the baby(my wife any I Just had ours Monday(Gabriella) ans happy holidays.

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67 prostreet BB Camaro The Combat Rat
80 z28 Camaro 355ci
71 BB SS Chevelle (clone)
2002 35th anniv SS Z28 conv.

try a blaster 3 coil the stock coil wont handle the msd box

i was thinking about your problem i had a 73 that did something like this have you had the gas tank out on this car ther is a screen on the pick up tube and if you have alot of rust in the gas tank it suck the particals to the screen and stops the fuel when the car dies the particals releace and when you restart the car it suck them back to the screen and so on this was the problem with mine you can put some gas tank sealer in and seal them in or remove the screen and add a inline filter(between gas tank and pump) to replace the screen witch can be replaced when cloged hope this might help to solve the problem good luck dan

I think DjD was onto something with the cooling system pressure test. The test is done by pressurizing the cooling system with a hand operated pump that attaches to your radiator in place of the cap, and is similar to a cylinder leakdown test in that you watch for changes in pressure. It's been a long time since I've used one - I used to be a GM Tech - but as I recall, you pump it up to about 30-40 psi, and then watch the gauge. If it falls, you obviously have a leak and need to figure out where it is.

Do the test on a cold engine. If it passes that test..so far, so good.

Now bring the engine up to operating temp, CAREFULLY remove the rad cap and repeat the test. If it passes here, great! If it fails after having passed the cold test, consider a head gasket or a cracked head (most likely) or possibly a cracked block.

But don't jump to conclusions, either. Many other parts of the cooling system could leak when hot. i.e. a freeze plug, heater core/hose etc.

drpm - no msd equipment present. That was the old pic I think that you may be referencing...

BPOS - that's exactly what I was suggesting...

For Bill K. - Do you guys have names? http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

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...Dennis
"The '69 (http://chevelles.com/showroom/ww.jpg), the '96 (http://www.camaroslimited.com/graphics/memcars/96ss.jpg) our local club (http://camaroslimited.com/)"
and the "daily driver" (http://chevelles.com/showroom/DjD/dsc00016.jpg)

Bond! .....James Bond!

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67 prostreet BB Camaro The Combat Rat
80 z28 Camaro 355ci
71 BB SS Chevelle (clone)
2002 35th anniv SS Z28 conv.

What ever happened??

I was reading this thread for when it was fresh and then it stopped. I feel like I paid for a movie and the film broke with 5 min left. Does it have an ending yet??

This is turning out to be like a movie on a DVD where you get to select the ending... http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif Here's a bit of a follow up. http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum5/HTML/002510.html

Here's the orig post that started before this one. http://www.camaros.net/forum/Forum5/HTML/002440.html

As for current status the new rockers seemed to cure the problem for a few days and then the problem came back. I think the stuck valves/bad rockers were a by-product of the real problem that has yet to be resolved. I believe the intake has been shipped to Jerry McNeish (sp?) but don't know if it is suspect. I know it had some cosmetic issues. Jess has a lot on his plate (new baby on the way) and I don't know the full status on things for sure...