Hi guys, glad to find a REALLY good forum and website. OK heres the story....I am buying a 1969 Z 28. I have been told its all original and have been doing some research on it the past week. Its a x77 d80 Garnet Red with black vinyl top. OK here is my problem. The motor has been decked and has not motor codes on the top of the block where heads bolt on. I climbed up under the car yesterday to try to see if there was a code near the oil filter... couldnt find it. I dont know if I am looking in the wrong spot or not. It will have to be restored but I think it is all original. All the bolt on stuff for the engine tells me it is a orig 302. Deep pulleys, alum intake and holley, unusual harmonic balancer, larger radiator, ect. I think it is an original 302 motor but want to be REAL sure before dropping the cash. OH on the back of the block is a casting # 11GM3970010. I want to make SURE that its all orig. CAn any of you guys help? Does anyone have a good picture of EXACTLY where the code near the oil filter is ? Can someone take me a picture of theirs and email it to me ? I have found on diagram on the net that shows where it is suppose to be but its vague. Any help would be appreciated on helping me make sure its the real deal. I THINK IT IS and I am getting a super deal on it. Thanks again Mark

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Mark M Martin

post all the numbers you can find, eng, trans , rear end,etc.
then look real close, is the trim tag original?
is there any paper work at all? it's worth dropping the gas tank as far as I'm concerned. because, sad but true is is posible to "fake " a Z. you need to do all the research about what makes a Z and then pick the car apart.and then pay for what's in front of you..

The codes under the hood are:
713=houndstooth interior
52D= garnet red with black vinyl top
D-80= frt and rear spoilers
x-77= Z 28 package

vin = 124379N693637
12437 = v 8 coupe
block casting from rear of block drivers side is: 11GM3970010
These are the codes I have now...I will be going back to try to get an engine vin (looking for a DZ) off the back of the block near the oil filter. I have heard that I might find a build sheet somewhere under the rear seat cushion ??? Thanks for your help
any additional would be appreciated.

Mark from SC

What you may find alongside (the vertical surface) the oil filter is a partial VIN, not the engine code. For this car the original block would be stamped 19N693637. Problem is the surface the stamp is on is cast and the stamping is often illegible.

Broadcast sheets (aka build sheets) are almost never found in Norwood-built Camaros.

If the inspection cover is not on the bellhousing the crank flange should be visible. A 302 crank is identified by a "V" notch machined into the flange that mounts the flywheel.

Thanks for all the input guys... How about this.. I know the car is a Z28..and the RPO tag under the hood looks orignal, (I've been fooled before) If I can pull a partial vin# from the oil filter area and it matches the vin# doesnt that mean that the motor is original to the car? I am also going to possibly talk to one of the previous owners this week. I think I read somewhere on the net (1 of 500 sites I hit this week) that I could call GM and give them the vin# and possibly get some more info? Any one got their phone # ? Thanks again guys

Mark from SC originally from KY go cats....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think I read somewhere on the net (1 of 500 sites I hit this week) that I could call GM and give them the vin# and possibly get some more info? Any one got their phone # ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wishfull thinking, but its impossible unless the car was sold in Canada. They having shipping records to help but not any USA cars. Chevy won't give you any specific info, they say it does not exist anymore. What you probably heard is thay you can get an info packet about certain year and model Chevy car but not for any specific VIN. They will only provide the info if you are an owner. They will ask you for the VIN.

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2002 Pontiac TA WS6 Ram Air LS1, 6sp Hurst, TCS, CD Changer - Pewter "Last of the Breed"
2001 GMC SLT Extended Cab Z71 - Polo Green

look for the casting date on the rear of the block, 010 blocks were made from 69 to 75.
look at the dates on the heads (pull a valve cover) these at the least should be dated 1-3 monthes before the cars build date.you can verify all the numbers but remember, it could still be faked. example...take an 010 block from a truck, deck it, then stamp a vin above the oil filter. all the parts are out there,
just expensive.or you could have a Z that somewhere along the line they had to replace a block.having the "what looks original" trim tag helps a lot. but also, you can get a trim tag made with "original style" rivets for $150.
There are a lot of fake Z's out there that the owners think are real. get a couple books(chevy by the #'s,by Al colvin.... and Camaro restoration guide, by Jason Scott.. both at Amazon .com through this sites book section. take it with you and look at ALL the parts.
It is pretty easy to fake the big stuff but a lot of times the small stuff gets overlooked.
where is the speedo cable through the firewall? #'s on trans? motormounts ? there is a lot to look at. so, educate yourself some more beforepaying a Z price. Skip
feel free to call me.740-393-1716

[This message has been edited by skip99 (edited 08-25-2002).]

While you are crawling, what's the trans and axle codes?
The trans code is on the passenger side, stamped on the rear edge of the maincase.
The axle code is located on the passenger side axle tube. Look under 'Decoding' on the CRG website for a great sketch of the location. http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#RearAxleNumbers
Also, what's the NOR and date from the trim tag?

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Kurt S.
CRG www.camaros.org (http://www.camaros.org)

If you getting such a good deal, don't worry if it has the original motor. Sounds like you have a late Z (as do I). The VIN is located down on the rough casting but you probablly will never see it with the motor in the car. I used carb cleaner and a tooth brush and didn't find it till a pulled the motor. Buy the car and worry about all the parts you may or may not be missing after you get it home in your garage...
Good luck!

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- John -
69 Z/28 (http://www.camarogenerations.com/memberfiles/firestone.html)
69 Z11 (http://www.camarogenerations.com/memberfiles/firestonez11.html)
Camaro Generations (http://camarogenerations.com/) Member
WCA Member

I am going back for some more research today or tommmorow and taking some cash. What would you guys say the car is worth (if original) in its current condition...I will try to describe it completely: The car is in primer...The man I am buying it from is a body man (a good one I am told by freinds) He says it will need door skins and rear quarter panels (new ones are included..doors and rear quarters) Inside the trunk has been repaired (by him). The rest of the body just needs to be cleaned sanded and prepped. No bumpers, most all the trim is there, trunk lid and hood are ok. The interior will need to be redone. All guages on the console work and the tach and speedo work fine. Motor runs super, my friend that rode in it two weeks ago says it is a rocket and he knows fast cars. He says he figures the engine has been freshened lately. Clutch and trans seem to work well, rear end is good (4:56 posi) Needs brakes gone through. All the glass is there but Iwill probably go with new.Original wheels are there and in fair shape. Thats a fair description of the car. what do you guys think ? What do you think a decent deal would be on a car like this ? I think it is a origianl car with all matching ##'s The guy says he knows the other owners and all the research I am have done points to the fact that its original.....Thanks again guys....I am getting gearhead fevor again and my wife is getting worried.....She wants to know why I am cleaning the GARAGE out and buying some tools.....

cya Mark from SC orig from Ky

The questionable block and the rough condition of this car puts it solidly in Old Cars category #5, "restorable" a bit up from "parts car".

If the sheet metal included is NOS GM and not patch panels and it really is a Z/28 (power front discs, Muncie, 12 bolt, correct gauges) what you have described is worth $6000-$7000 max. Even at that I know of better cars that have recently sold, including a rough but running JL8 car for $8000.

First-class body, paint, glass & trim may exceed $10,000. The car still needs brakes, interior and undoubtedly other mechanical work (you'll soon tire of the 4.5 gear...). Over time you could easily spend $15,000+ on it. When you're done it will still be an undocumented car with a questionable engine. The current state of the Muscle car hobby is such that undocumented cars are suspect unless in absolutely pristine condition, every nut and bolt correct.

This is 27 years of 1st gens speaking here, 14 of it in the parts business. Been down the resto road myself and watched many of our customers bury $1000s in poor cars. I realize you're excited about the car; I'm not. Seen this same deal 50 times, outcome always the same.

As the used car guys say if you're handy with money you can fix anything.

Thanks for your input William... NOS GM ??? I have seen this alot, I know what the GM is..what is NOS abbreviated for? OK...Some more casting ##'s off the block are :
11gm3970010 Some of the reading and research tells me this was a Z28 block. It does have front disc brakes... Deep Pulleys, a different looking Harmonic balancer. I am sure the car is an original Z and its looking like the motor and trans are Z also. I am getting the car for less than 6K 5000$ Thanks for your input william. ANY INFO on helping me ID the car is appreciated. I got the book ; Camaro Rest Guide by Jason Scott today and it is an awesome book. THanks Guys, I hope maybe to buy the car tommorow or WEd. waiting on some cash.....

Mark

Hey William, he KNOWS it's a Z-28.

If you look at 10 "original" Z28 or SS Camaros maybe 1-2 will prove to be real. Depends on what you want from the car whether it is worth the $ you spend on it. Out of the 10, if you even find one with all matching drive train you are a lottery winner. Keep in mind these cars are over 30 years old. Everybody puts so much stock into whether it has the original motor or not, I personally do not. It is more important to me if it REALLY is a Z28 or SS car. Overall condition still dictates what a car is worth more than anything else. If you don't believe me, ask an owner of a 67 or 68 Yenko if their motor is original or even if they can prove that it is the motor Yenko transplanted into it. Bottom line is they can't! These cars sell for 60K or more. ZL1 cars that are remaining sell for 200K and there may be only 3 or 4 left with the original motor, even less with all the original drive train if any. Care less if it has the original motor but more if it is a true Z28 and if you can restore it to its original condition by a fiscally prudent method.

The only way anyone KNOWS it is a Z/28 is with factory paperwork. Everything else can be obtained/fabricated. How many "X33" or "X77" cars have been on ebay that had obviously swapped tags?

Don't compare the relatively common Z/28 to the few hundred Yenko or ZL1 Camaros produced, all of which can be authenticated. OE motor cars will always be worth more.

NOS means new old stock. It originally applied to unused service parts made within maybe a few years of a cars' manufacture. It is now applied to parts made yesterday.

Mark, sounds like you got a fair buy. Have fun!

[Thanks William. Question...If I need to go with door skins do you think it would be better to find some original doors from a donor car? I have seen some used ones on the net. ALSO do you think the DMV will give me some info on the can if I provide the VIN # . I am going to talk to the owner tommorow ...he says he knows the two previous owners and I plan to talk to them. I really think that the car is ALL Original and most guys I know that are into Chevy's and muscle cars say I am getting a good deal (havent convinced my wife of that yet) LOL Thanks guys for all the input....
Mark

Sorry William, Yenkos cannot all be authenticated, sure there is a list of VINs on the cars that were transplanted by Yenko, but what made these cars special in the first place? Surely not the torque thrusts or decals? No, it was the motors transplanted into them! Well, prove to me on a non COPO Yenko that the motor in it was the one Yenko Chevrolet put in it. So, if you are saying that the fact that it was a real Yenko is what makes it more valuable than you are just making my point. Yes, OE motors are more valuable generally if you have two similar cars (please!; always and never are horrible words to use when discussing old cars or just about anything else), but is a POS original motor car worth more than a frame off restored NOM car, I think not.

[This message has been edited by 69RS/SS350 (edited 08-26-2002).]

I stand by my statement.

In addition to what has been around for years a former Yenko employee has turned up with much more original Yenko paperwork, mostly '67-68, some '69. I've personally seen some of the '69 docs; it's for real. Even the Vegas and Corvairs can be authenticated.

Not all of Yenkos cars were transplants and nobody would really know if a '67 or '68 has its Yenko-installed engine. No one seems to care. But for '69 Yenko Camaros & Chevelles had factory installed engines; same for the '70 Deuce. Fairly easy to tell.

Don't compare apples & oranges. A POS OE motor Yenko is worth more than a POS non-OE motor Yenko. An OE motor '69 Yenko Camaro needing considerable work recently sold nearby. For the price it fetched I could have bought 2 restored Z/28s.

Mark, were this my car I would look for good used doors but that was tough when I left the biz 5 years ago. California stuff has dried up; many were full of filler anyway. If your door shells are solid at the lower front try to find someone who has done Camaro door skins previously.

You can also buy new door shells now for a little over $300. Probably pay less then a good original one.

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David
Camaro - '68 327 Coupe (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/68camaro.htm), '86 Z-28 IROC 305 TPI (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/86iroc.htm)
Corvette - '73 Mako Shark II (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/), '82 Cross-fire (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/82vette.htm), '01 Coupe (http://makoshark2.com/djunod/cars/01vette.htm)

Ok guys....here's my deal. My Z is original in every way I can find, and believe me, I have looked at many many sites and purchased many books to validate this car. The engine however, is a "CE" warranty replacement engine. Is it a 302? I say no, because the crank flange is the shape of a 350 crank flange. All of this is documented in Colvin's book. The crank flange will tell you what you have.....but then again...anything happened on the line. BTW, the balance of my mystery engine is legit, just the shortblock is most likely not 302. But I don't care. Here I go again....as posted by others on this thread, the cars condition and basic originality is paramount.
Believe me, I looked at Z's for many years before buying the one I have. "oh Yeah...it's matching"...only to find that the wrong paint is on it, the wrong wheels/tires/trans/dash/no-smog/top missing/wrong carb/.....you get the idea. Numbers matching is only of some value if everything else is correct, otherwise, it's a novel fact about a bad car. The local collector car dealer says he looks at condition first, then numbers. Don't get fooled into buying based upon reverse logic. The cost to restore a bad car will far exceed the value enhancement of the matching parts. End of my editorial..

[This message has been edited by ChuckD (edited 08-30-2002).]

Finally some signs I was looking for.... As I stated earlier my VIN is 124379 N 693637 I (finally) found and code on the back of the motor next to the oil filter (thanks for all the pics and help guys) The number was:
19A 693637 . I am thinking this is the partial vin# because it does match the last 6 #'s in the VIN # from the dash. My trans # is 3857584
And my rear end # is C BU-0924G2. I am thinking now I can without a doubt say that I have the REAL DEAL, also in case you didnt read the earlier post the Trim Tab tells me X77 with D-80 (spoilers) What is the 19A in front of the partial vin # on the motor ?? Anyway...I am happy...my son helped me all day so after we bolted the header back on we took a "maniac ride".... Sideways in forth was fun.
Thanks guys for your help and input...
Mark