I know where a complete 69 Z-10 hardtop pace car project is and was wanting to know roughly what it might be worth and how many were built? It has the usual Camaro rot around the windows, decklid, floor, but is not junk. It looks to be complete. I have not opened the hood to see if it is a SB or BB car. It all looks to be original. I need some help on what to look for as I have not dealt with any rare Camaros in the past. I have a 68 now but nothing special about it. Thanks in advance.

Mike

Common belief is that there were between 200 and 500 of the Z10's made, my personal belief is that there are closer to 800 to 900 of them. Either way they are a rare car. If it's all there your probably looking at a value somewhere around 18 to 20K at the bottom end of the scale and then they go up from there. Big blocks probably add a 5K premium to that price.

Now something for the Z10 owners. They are not Pace Car coupes. The Option on the Window Stickers states RPO Z10 "Special Accent Striping", not the RPO Z11 "Indy Pace Car Accents" :D

OOOHHH Mark, you didnt just say that, help us all! ;)

"Now something for the Z10 owners. They are not Pace Car coupes. The Option on the Window Stickers states RPO Z10 "Special Accent Striping", not the RPO Z11 "Indy Pace Car Accents"


That is why the interiors were "free" to be ordered any way the customer wanted.

ALL were still SS and RS and white with orange Z stripes and orange side pinstripes, past that I am not aware of any required options, ie deluxe seat belts like ALL the Z11's had.
so white with black vinyl top and black std interior could be a version of a Z10

or ... all white, no vinyl top and white houndstooth interior flys too

(come to think of it I do not recall ever seeing the deluxe comfort weave interior on any, not to say they weren't made, but most I've seen were here in Phoenix and the LA area)

A freind of mine has a SB Z10 with black deluxe comfortweave interior. Car was from TX.

I will try and go by and look at it again and get some better info on it.

Mike

Make sure to write down the VIN and trim tag #'s. smile.gif

Okay, I talked with the guy today, I have not looked directly at but will shortly. I hope to post the cowl tag info tommorrow. He is suppose to be the secord or third owner since new. He has had it 22 years. This is what I have been told. It is an RS, 350, column shift? automatic, no console, typical camaro rust, needs quarters, floors, window rot, original sheetmetal, never wrecked. He said if you put fresh gas and battery in it, it should start, run and drive. I wouldn't think you would find a column shift on a car like this. It also has original owners manual with protect-o-plate. Like I said, i hope to post cowl tag info tommorow and possibly go look at this weekend.

Mike

Column shift is the default unless you ordered a console.
If you get it, *don't* add a console. You'll get more comments (and be different) with the column shift. 21 out of 22 auto ZL1's can't be wrong. smile.gif
Sounds like a project, but a cool project.

Cowl tag reads as follows:

ST69 12437NOR313831 BDY
TR 27 50-50 PNT
04C Z-10

I guess I will go look at it before Christmas to verify how many numbers are numbers matching.

Mike

The body number is less than 2000 under mine which was also built 4C. Although sometimes the body #'s are not in order. I guess the VIN should be under or around # 63XXXX

Well a buddy of mine has secured the car and it is for sale. I will make sure CRG has the info before I let it go. I have put it up for sale in the forum classifieds for the guys who are serious. I know a few of you had contacted me originally about it and you would have first dibs if you want it. This is a car that needs to be put back original and I know I won't so that is why I am selling it.

Mike

Didnt you guys know they now have "Official" Z10 pace cars? Ive still not heard back from this guy in email either. Maybe the previous owner is still laughing graemlins/clonk.gif

Official Z10 pacer car (http://www.camaros.net/forum/ultimatebb.php/topic/2/10949.html)

Originally posted by Mark C:
Common belief is that there were between 200 and 500 of the Z10's made, my personal belief is that there are closer to 800 to 900 of them. Either way they are a rare car. If it's all there your probably looking at a value somewhere around 18 to 20K at the bottom end of the scale and then they go up from there. Big blocks probably add a 5K premium to that price.

Now something for the Z10 owners. They are not Pace Car coupes. The Option on the Window Stickers states RPO Z10 "Special Accent Striping", not the RPO Z11 "Indy Pace Car Accents" :D Not trying to get into a big argument here, but...
1. What do you base the 800 to 900 estimate on?

Highest estimate I ever heard was 300. Talked to a guy that actually worked at Norwood in 1969 and he said 180. Have no idea how he came up with it. This was quite a few years ago at the Chickasha (OK) spring swap meet, and no I don't know his name etc.

2. I personally don't have a problem with guys calling this a "hardtop pace car". It's no worse than everyone referring to the "cowl induction hood" even though that terminology was not used by Chevy in 1969. Called it a special ducted hood on the order form and a "super scoop" in advertising. So,, even though the window sticker didn't call it a "super scoop" could you blame a guy if he used that term?

I can just see the prospective buyer at the local Chevy store in Tex, OK or New Mex. "Yeah, I'd like one of those pace cars, but it is so hot here I don't want a convertible". Once the Z10 was made available you don't think the salesman called him up to announce the avaliablilty of a "hard top pace car?" What if it took a set of pace car decals to finish off the deal? It would be different if someone were trying to pass one off as what it isn't.

Z10 and Z11 are both great options. Fortunatley, they are both easily identifiable. Don't know why it would matter what terminology we use to describe it.

While I am at it, Kevin, I also know a guy with a Z10 with black comfortweave interior. I have seen a few here in OK, and the one on ebay is the only one I have seen with a standard interior.

Hey Lynn, where are you at in OKC? I am just South of Norman about 10 miles. Maybe we can hook up sometime. Do you have a Camaro?

Mike

Lynn, my only concern is that things repeated often enough, are soon thought to be right, even when they are wrong. If everyone did as you guys have, use the term once but then go on to explain the true nature of the Z10 options, then a buyer is informed and thats ok.
Its when an unsuspecting buyer is not informed of the truth and he bumps in here one day to find out he was mislead, then we have to explain it all to him and he is rightfully mad that he was duped. Now yes, he should do his homework, BUT those of us that know the difference should go out of our way to be accurate and concise, so as to protect the hobby that we all love so much. By keeping folks on the straight and narrow, we protect not only our own cars values but the respect of others who come to Team Camaro for answers.
Way to many ebayers are lying thru their teeth and luckily alot of potential buyers come here for info. before buying and are then somewhat suspect of any car they look at. By keeping our hobby above board, we help ourselves as much as the next guy.
I compare that to the exploitation of X11 as if that was God's gift to Chev. when its nothing special at all. Buyers see X's and numbers after them and think AH HA a special camaro.
Same with Z10 and Z11, except then you are talking big bucks for either one. The differences should be explained, maybe linked to CRG and then let the buyer make his informed decision.
My point being, those of us with more knowledge than a buyer, should share that knowledge upfront and pass along the good feeling that a sale was handled properly and wont come back to bite you.
Im sure Mike will be quite honest with his car but for future TC folks that do a search, I think its good to have a discussion once in awhile, about how honest we all try to be in here. Im sure you can agree with that. smile.gif

Hi Mike:

I am in NW OKC, but do get down to Norman from time to time. Have used Boyd's for machine work on my BMW's. I have an office downtown OKC and one in Edmond.

Yes, I have an X77 D80 car built 08A that I have owned since 1976. It is all apart right now. Off the rotisserie (sp?) and in primer. Got sidetracked four years ago (has it really been that long?) and am hopefully getting back on track soon.

I am in a car club called Classic Camaro Club of Oklahoma. Club is not very active right now, but will be meeting at Coit's, 39th and Penn in OKC.
I will be there, and guests are welcome. For a local club we have put on some pretty good car shows. Had three Z10's at one time. One show had several very correct Z/28's, a 68 big block survivor, a couple of primo Z10's, and a gorgeous 69 L78 convertible.

Email me if you want more info.

Jim:

I think you and I agree in principle. My responses to your quoted points are below.

"Way to many ebayers are lying thru their teeth and luckily alot of potential buyers come here for info. before buying and are then somewhat suspect of any car they look at. By keeping our hobby above board, we help ourselves as much as the next guy."

I agree whole heartedly. I have even posted some of the fake Z parts for sale. Isn't it funny that every cig lighter, dome light, brake drum, steering wheel, etc, "came off my 69 Z/28". Funny how @ 20,000 were built and we have now accounted for @ 60,000 of them. Makes me want to puke. Trim tag sales, either real ones or repops are offensive. No excuse, EVER. The only reason for a trim tag sale is to DECEIVE someone somewhere down the line.

"I compare that to the exploitation of X11 as if that was God's gift to Chev. when its nothing special at all."

Absolutely. Probably as many x11 cars as any other. It's a good thing no one makes a reproduction 512 block or they would all end up "numbers matching COPO" cars.


"My point being, those of us with more knowledge than a buyer, should share that knowledge upfront ..... I think its good to have a discussion once in awhile, about how honest we all try to be in here. Im sure you can agree with that."

No question about it. Carry on the good work. I just enjoy being part of the discusssion and bringing in other points of view.

And another thing: Why would someone put a ducted hood on their "restored" Z if it didn't come that way? McNeish estimates only about 10% of the Z's came with it. In high school, all I ever saw was flat hood Z's. Now you can't find one. Fine if you want to modify your car, but don't call it restored. Gee, now I am getting even more picky than the rest of you guys.

My car originally had the ducted hood, but if it had come with a flat hood, I would keep it that way.

Boy, you got me going now.

Lynn,
My Z10 research shows the Z10 production #'s were at least 500 cars and up to 800-1000.

Sometime I need to finish my Z10 / Z11 article. It's 90% done.......

I say the higher number based on the comparision of the number of Z11 and Z10 VIN's and cowl tags I have access to. I have 263 Z11 vins and cowl tag data, including LA built pace cars, and 84 Z10 VINs and cowl tags. Assuming the data was collected in the same manner and the cars have a similar survival rate this would indicate that there are approximately 30 percent as many Z10's as there are Z11's. Even allowing for some data skewing this would put the number of Z10's closer to 1000 than 200. If you believe the 200 number it would just seem odd that I have info on almost half of the Z10's and less than 10 percent of the Z11's. What the ultimate production numbers are, is still anyones guess though.

Mark, I am not a statistical analylst, but don't the numbers change when the base was a limited run and desirable car?

What is the survivor rate for ZL-1s? Maybe that is a better percent to use than standard camaros.

The 69 Z10 production can be compared to the '67 Pace Car production. Nobody knows how many '67's there were, supposedly only 100+/-. But according to knowledgeable sources, there are almost that many in the database. You can't compare them to the ZL1 IMO because that was a very special production car and doesn't follow in the normal pattern of declination.
My .02

Which one is more desireable, the Z10 or Z11? Both of these cars should have similar life expectancies, and have been treated equally over the past 35 years and by knowing how many there were originally made of one model, and how many survive of each you should be able to make a reasonable estimate of the original production.

Most of the dealer ordered cars sat on the dealers lots for quite a while, if they were not ordered for a customer. Even in 69 white and orange with an orange interior (in the case of the Z11's) was still a little to extreme for most people. There are plenty of Z11's with initial sale dates in the late calendar 69 and early calendar 70 years.

Look at it this way, GM was building about 60 Z28's a day which could be considered a limited production desireable car, and that comes out to 300 to 360 a week. The Z10 was in production for at least 2 weeks, so at the same rate that would come out to 600 to 720 cars. It's odd that the Z10 RPO is one of those options that GM has never released info on the number of units sold, even thoough it does show up on window stickers, body braodcast sheets and other GM documnets. Until GM comes out with production info (if ever) no one will really know the answer.

And another thing: Why would someone put a ducted hood on their "restored" Z if it didn't come that way?

Lynn, I don't think "restored" has to mean 'put back as original"

I have spent 7 years restoring my car, and making a Yenko Tribute Car out of it. While restored, it is not original.

Tried again to put your response in quotes. Guess I'm not very good at it.

I'm coming up with my estimates in a different way than Mark, but I'll guarantee the 500 minimum. smile.gif

Kurt & Mark:

You both may be correct. You certainly know more about these cars than I do. That is why I asked what the higher estimates were based on. I only stated the numbers I had heard. No question there is an incredible amount of misinformation out there. YOur work is helping clean that up.

As far as calling a tribute car "restored" I will just have to respectfully disagree. I certainly mean no disrespect. Also do not mean to minimize your efforts. And I don't think it is "wrong" to build a car different from "original". It is your car and you can do what you want. I was only speaking of the restoration aspect of the hobby, which is only one small niche. Let's face it, if it weren't for modifications, we would never have had a hot rod industry.

Just my 2 cents, nothing more.

I'm glad to see this interest level and debate associated with IPC cars! The IPC in my opinion was a huge marketing boost for GM and camaro. When making a comparison I would like to note that the cars ordered for track use were copo's with very few documented survivors accounted for. Replicas were factory produced of these cars in both 67 and 69 with the exact numbers unknown. The COPO track use cars are very similar in number to the production numbers of the ZL1. And if we want to talk limited production lets give the two or three actual COPO 67 and 69 pacers the accalaids they deserve for being both rare and performance enhanced.