I need help decoding my engine.

# on VIN pad of block: CE9B41950
Casting #: 3970010
Cylinder Head Casting #: 3927186

Any ideas?

350 (or could be 302) "CE" warranty replacement block made in '69; the 186 heads could be either 2.02" or 1.94" valves. No way to tell what's inside it without tearing it down. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

CE - Chevrolet Engine
9 - 1969
B - probably for a block, or fitted block replacement only. (some CE engines have a letter code, some don't)
41950 is the sequential number or the replacement, indicating it came from the Flint Engine Plant. By its position in the series it was made fairly late in 69, probably October or so.

Casting #: 3970010
Used after Mid March 1969 for 302, and 350 ci engines could have either 2 bolt or 4 bolt mains

Cylinder Head Casting #: 3927186
Camel Hump heads, used in 302/290HP engines with 2.02/1.60 valves, and in 350/300HP engines with 1.94/1.50 valves. 64cc chamber combustion cylinders.

Could be either a Z28 DZ, or an L48 replacement block, amongst others. Any other component numbers with it?

JohnZ - I thought the -186 castings were specificly for the 2.02 Intakes. I've never seen a set with small valves, have you and what were they used on if you know?

They were also used on L-48's, with 1.94" valves. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I've heard that before but, I've never run into a set of 1.94's so far - every set has 2.02's. The last 69 350/300 I did had -041 casings on it. It was a late July early Aug. car with a Flint engine. Was the -186 head used in earlier cars or was it used till end of production run?

I have the same casting # of 3970010 on my block and I also have the 3927186 camel hump heads. They are original to my 1970 Z28, which is a 350ci/360hp LT-1. In addition, they are 2.02 intakes and 1.60 exhausts.

Ryan

Thanks for the help everyone!!!

This engine is in my 1968 Z28-RS. I knew when I bought the car it was incorrect. But, that's why is was affordable. It is a real Z28-RS. Got the build sheet and protect-o-plate for it. Just the wrong motor. It's sort of an "odd-ball", that's why I had to have it. Corvette Bronze, RS, Black Vinyl top, Standard Interior and 4.10 rear end. Very odd combination of high-perf and select "dress-up" options.

The guy I bought it from swore it was still a 302 (he mentioned service replacement, but I didn't believe him). Claimed he cracked the original block by not having anti-freeze in it. Seems strange you would replace it with another 302, but JUNK the original block.

Anyway, I've started getting an "MO" coded motor together and will be dumping the engine mentioned above (several months from now). Any idea what it's worth?

Thanks again!

Have you pulled the heads to see what the CE engine actually is? It may very well be a 302, and be a good head start towards getting the MO engine together. Which brings up an interesting point: Which is more "correct", a CE factory replacement block, or a non matching VIN MO block?

ET, find out the date of the 186 heads..they could be original

Where will I find the casting date for the heads?

ET, remove the valve covers. The casting dates will be between the rocker arms in a different are than the casting number.

Casting date #'s are: H248

Originally posted by ET:
Casting date #'s are: H248 According to Colvin....

H= August build date
24= 24th day of Month cast
8= 1968

So....August 24th 1968

John

Okay, the heads are from August of '68.

Where will I find the casting date on the block? It should be before the casting of the heads... right? That is, if the entire engine was replaced as a "service replacement".

The intake is correct for a '68 Z28.
#3917610
It has the correct oil fill tube and oil cap.

The carb is incorrect. But what is it?
Holley list #4777-2 and underneath that is #3435.
Any thoughts?

I had heard that CE could also stand for "Counter Exchange", a term that could be referring to warranty replacement situations. Fits with your replacement block story. Is this true?

fyi

CE stand for Chevrolet Engine, counter engine, counter exchange and crate engine are made up names.

Now you know the rest of the story..........

http://www.synthetic-oil.com/images/CE.bmp

My guess would be if the block was cracked due to no anti-freeze, just the short block was replaced. Swapping the heads, intake and other parts would have saved some money at the time.
The block casting date is behind the drivers side head where the bellhousing bolts on.

BTW there are big and small valve 186 heads on ebay now (not mine).

186 heads were not only made for 69 . . .
They come with both size valves depending on application and year.

The heads are 68 dated heads but not for 68 cars . . . these would be for an early build 69.

I would find it highly unlikely that if the engine was replaced under warranty, that they would only replace the short block . . . they don't want to mess with this . . . much easier to pull the original motor, swap the externals to the new long block, and drop the new long block back in.

[ 05-01-2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: ratchetmaster ]

"The guy I bought it from swore it was still a 302 (he mentioned service replacement, but I didn't believe him). Claimed he cracked the original block by not having anti-freeze in it. Seems strange you would replace it with another 302, but JUNK the original block."

I'd bet Chevy didn't pay to replace any of this engine. Swapping heads and intakes happened all the time. You'd be surprised what warranted parts you can buy out the back door of your local Chevy dealer, even today.

Originally posted by ratchetmaster:

I would find it highly unlikely that if the engine was replaced under warranty, that they would only replace the short block . . . they don't want to mess with this . . . much easier to pull the motor, swap the externals, and drop it back in. A short block is an engine assembly (not a bare block) consisting of the engine block fitted with crankchaft, bearings, pistons, cam and bearings, freeze plugs (actually access holes left by the foundry casting process). GM would not replace any parts that were not defective, so the heads, dist, intake/carb, water pump and all external parts like the oil pan, valve covers would be reused. They would not trash good parts as that would drive the cost of warranty work up.

A long block is an engine assembly consisting of a short block with heads.

Originally posted by ET:
The carb is incorrect. But what is it?
Holley list #4777-2 and underneath that is #3435.
Any thoughts? The carb is a 90's replacement 650 CFM -4150 type.

BTW - ElCamino is correct, prior to the intro of the 'Target Master/Mr Goodwrench' engines I used a lot of 350 Short Blocks for Warranty Replacement Work at So. Ca. dealerships. These blocks were coded CE - we did not try to restamp the VIN or original numbers back in them. On a specialized engine like a 302 we used fitted short block engine assemblies to replace defective engines. If the repair required Heads we would use the lastest revision heads available IF we could not get a complete long block assembly. Remember these cars had long warranties and some of the original HP parts were hard to get even then.

I found a replacement 186 head for my friend's original engine 69 Z. The head I found was one day different from the original (mid may, 69, I can't remember the exact date) Anyway, it had the small valves, but did have the hardened rockers. A lot can happen in 30 years, including replacing the rockers, but it's not too easy to machine the valves smaller. smile.gif

I thought that CE stood for "Caveat Emptor" smile.gif

Thanks everyone!

I'll post again (for closure) when I get the heads pulled and the measure the stroke.

elcamino
nice explanation of what a 'short block' is.

I already new this information . . . I am an old guy who has been there, and done that.

I hope someone who did not no this was able to benifit from such a clear explanation. smile.gif

I edited my previous post to clarify it . . . I wasn't very clear in stating what I ment.

I have a friend who bought a 69 Z28 camaro. It was originally sold in Alaska. It has a CE block and was apparently a complete long block replacement engine. It does have the original intake/carb setup but the "long block" was replaced.

also, I have heard of many LS1 engines which developed problems and the complete long block was replaced.

I don't know what the practices were back in "the day" but I would imagine these practices would vary from dealer to dealer . . . just like it does today.

ET
It will be interesting to know if the heads are original . . . that would be great if they are!!
Let us know what you find. Also, you don't have to measure the stroke . . . just post the casting # off the crank . . . that will tell us if it is a 302 or a 350.

edit . . .
sorry I don't know what I am thinking . . . there is NO way the heads are original . . . they dates are wrong . . . they are 69 run heads . . . and/ or service heads.

I don't have my books here . . . but your original head castings would have been the same as my 350 engine . . . but fitted with the big valves . . .

Don't the heads on your CE engine have acessory holes for the brakets on the ends of them, right??

68 Z28 (and others like mine) have the large double humps on the front and NO acessory holes!!!

If these are 202 valve heads, I would think you would be able to get a decent price for them . . .I don't know how much, but I am sure someone would be in need of early build heads for there 69 Z28.

The heads do have the accessory holes on the ends and the temp sending unit in the head.

If driving it is any indication, it may very well be a 302. It is a "dog" off the line. My Honda minivan (240 hp) would give it a run for its money up to 30 mph. This car doesn't get started until you wind it out. I've had a couple of vehicles with 350's and they accelerated pretty decent off the line, but this Camaro is slow.

Originally posted by ET:
If driving it is any indication, it may very well be a 302. It is a "dog" off the line. My Honda minivan (240 hp) would give it a run for its money up to 30 mph. This car doesn't get started until you wind it out. I've had a couple of vehicles with 350's and they accelerated pretty decent off the line, but this Camaro is slow. I'll let the Honda remark go for now - it does have almost as much HP as you're Camaro after all - 240 v.s 290 for the Camaro. :D
The 'little' 302 is a wind-up type motor - it loves to be wound up to about 3000 RPM before it starts to be itself. Try bringing the rev.s up to about 3200 RPM and moving your foot sideways to the left off the clutch in first in a match race with that Honda - bet you'll need to look long and hard in the rear mirror to see it through the "fog"! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I knew I'd get a response for that Honda remark!!! graemlins/hurray.gif

It really does come alive above 3000 rpms. It also keeps pulling until I chicken out (the motor is 30 years old!). Don't want to be picking up pieces of the bottom end off the road. After I do the rebuild, I'll find out at what rpm the valves float. I used to race SCCA and love to hear engines in the upper rpm band! Until then, I'll take it easy.

Sorry it's been so long, but for those curious I have an update!

The heads are 2.02/1.60 and the bottom end is a real 302. Looks like it is a "CE" 302 engine (block and heads).

I worked as a service writer , manager and part manager. I worked with warranty claims and to obtain zone authorization for replacement parts as you are discussing... In event of a block fail due to freezing( which was actually considered not a manufature defect ) When all rotating components were in good order,, GM would authorize the replacement of a fitted block .. that was a block and fitted pistons with rings. All that had to be done was take rods off of pistons and install on new pistons, install cam and rotating parts. This was a CE labled as over the counter in shop repairs. It just would not be practical to replace the block as you would have a differant piston and ring wear pattern.. As I was saying above,, there had to be a good reason to freeze as engine was supposed to have antifreeze in it during warranty period just as motor oil.. We worked with our customers on this and if we felt he was a very good customer,, we would justify a case for replacement of the short block..I have my orginal car now and it has a CE replacement block .. The zone manager authorized this replacement when my orginal motor evaporated at XXXX rpm,,,thus destroying lower end... He probably bent the rules here.