Here's another one to watch out for. All kinds of obvious things to make this nothing more than a cloned coupe with a trim tag added to it. It says X33D80 on the cowl tag and description then claims this is a Sept 68 car. Too bad the artist didn't know that they didn't add D80 to the tags till mid 1969.

D80 FRONT AND REAR SPOILER PACKAGE, RALLY WHEELS. BUILT 3RD WEEK OF SEPTEMBER, 1968. X-33 CODED CAR.
Cortez Silver RS Z/28 Clone (http://www.barrett-jackson.com/events/scottsdale/vehicles/cardetail_list.asp?id=174792)

I sure hope some newbie at Barret Jackson doesn't get hooped on this one thinking it's real.

[ 01-15-2004, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: hugger_sixty_nine ]

My guess is it's a late Sept '69 car and the seller assumed it's an early '68... It's a nice car, not an orig drive train, and a few things that are not correct but at no reserve I don't think the seller is out to cheat anyone...

Dennis,

Can't be a late 69 car or it would have had a centre clock or a fuel gauge right? This one has a basic coupe style dash carrier with no center instrumentation. It will be interesting to see what happens on it.

Maybe this one because of the fraud in the title will get some coverage. This is not directed directly at you hugger!! I'm just using this thread as the conduit to get this message out.

This doesn't happen every time someone posts an accusation but it does happen. Al or I end up getting e-mails from the person on the other end of the accusation and they usually end up taking up hours of our time (more Al than I) batting things back and forth with words like slander and lawsuit being thrown about. Al doesn't need the grief in his day but he always goes forth trying to find the truth and defusing the situation.

If we are all more careful with the titles and what we say up front some of this behind the forums headachs can be reduced. There is a lot of good that comes from some of the "watch out" threads and we all learn a bit more so I'm not saying the subject is taboo, just try to be accurate and try to word things without using discriptors like fraud or thief...

Thanks in advance,

Originally posted by hugger_sixty_nine:
Dennis,

Can't be a late 69 car or it would have had a centre clock or a fuel gauge right? This one has a basic coupe style dash carrier with no center instrumentation. It will be interesting to see what happens on it. The steering wheel is debatable to as I've heard it couldn't be had on a '69 and the Master Cyl unless there was some late year change isn't right too. All are common change out items and the gauges and console are too.


The only rule (I'm always open for learning) I know of was it you got the console mounted gauges the gas gauge was omitted off the dash and you got a tach. I thought the clock was an option no matter what. I'm also under the impression there was only one dash pod, never heard of "basic coupe style" as opposed to ??? Again always up for learning so don't take this as I'm all knowing... My 13 year old will be the first to tell you differently!! ;)

Without the VIN it's hard to tell, but the body number and date line up with an 09C 1969 (late production) car. Tags been off the car, look at the rivets. The tag does not match others in the same time period as far as code alignments between the individual lines though. I believe the tag is a repro tag, possible color change? More likely not a Z28, don't know which.

Wrong brake booster and master cylinder, wrong brake lines, wrong shifter knob, wrong tach, non functional ZL2 hood, wrong rear bumper, I'll give him a break on the chevelle steering wheel,

Yes Dennis you are right about the fraud comment. I had already gone in and edited that and inserted the word "QUESTIONABLE" in its place. The word FRAUD bothered me right from the outset and a better choice of words was quickly added (note the time of edit).

As for this cars authenticity or lack thereof, I would tend to agree with Mark about the tag quite possibly being a repop. About a year ago I wanted to find out how hard or how easy it would be to get a repo tag for a color change and tested the market. Within weeks I had obtained a shiny new trim tag with all the info I wanted on it. It is quite professional I must admit and the alignment of everything was perfect with the exception of one thing.

The Lower Fisher Text!

It is larger on the repro tags from this guy and I know because I held it up to my original and did a side by side comparison. I would say the text is at least 30% bigger and is quite noticeable. Looks about the same as the fisher text at the bottom of this cars tag and I would suggest that this may be a repop tag from the same tag maker.

Just my two bits, more on this later. Gotta get to work smile.gif

Did all the disc brake Camaros get the round disc on the brake pedal? This car doesn't have one. On the bumber is it the wrong bumper or just the wrong bumper guards? The rally wheels look a little too deep as well.

Graeme - I almost edited the Fraud back in when I saw you changed it but taking my to heart my own request felt you did best by making the change. It's also noted you did it on your own accord as it was done before my "conduit" verbage was posted, thanks.

Off topic: I was reading your guest book the other day and was wanting to tell you that Uncle Walter's post was a classic and really made my day. Next time you see him buy him a cold one for me... graemlins/beers.gif

Back on topic: We don't know that the owner has any idea what he has. I say that because it stated the car was a '68 build. There's so much to watch for and if only one out of 100 have no ethic's that puts all of us at risk of being taken advantage of!! Let the buyer beware!!

Mark - My wheel like that came off a Vette!! ;)

According to their schedule, this car may make it to the block 3/4 through the day on Friday the 23rd. Maybe we will actually see the auction on Speed!!

Does the firewall above the heater box look funny to you guys? Also "frame up restoration", I don't understand why someone would do a frame up restoration (to make it look stock) and install incorrect master cylinder, power brake booster, no headlight vacuum hoses or headlight washer hoses (were they an option on the RS?), deep Rally wheels , kick panel speakers etc. I guess, as someone mentioned, the car has no reserve so I don't think the owner is purposely trying to make it out as 100% correct. ...Just a new guys thoughts.
Joe :cool:

Some good points Dennis....

Off subject,

I got a laugh out of my Uncles thread as well and that's why I left it there in it's raw form. Will copy your thread to him as I am sure he will get a laugh in return, only I know he will then claim the pint you so kindly offered for me to buy him. (lol)

Take Care graemlins/beers.gif

No rear bumper guards either...just little ol bumperettes.

Showed up in the 1 hour special last nite, so it will definitely be on the auction slated for Speed on Fri. nite. I hope ole' Brock isn't commentating again or he might introduce it as a 'Cuda.

Rear Spoiler looks like a long one rather then a short one for a early car (68). The stripes are wrong on the trunk, The sequence # is before mine and my car is 140073 And I dont have X codes on my car. ROTFLMAO at the master cylinder.

My 2 cents would be buy it cheap and fix it . Its a nice car hopefully the engine is correct and someone could gather the right parts . I would like to see the rear frame rail if it has the correct bracket for dual exhaust. Also to see what type fuel line is on the car (single 3/8).

I think overall we don't mean any disrepect to the seller , However we dont want to see the buyer get spanked. I also think its allot of fun finding discerpencies.

My cousint bought a 63 split window . Its a nice car nice paint auto trans,knockoff wheels overall a great first Vette. however the trim tag says its a convertible and its not OPPS!

DZ I think it's been determined that at least the cowl tag is a sept '69 not '68, the spoiler would be correct as are the X codes. The MC is a common replacement part used because of the large volume of fluid it holds. The stripes on the trunk below the spoiler is a common mistake because a dealer added spoiler car would be that way.

You're only echoing my own sentiment about alerting future buyers but when we pick apart a car because it's fun, we loose objectivity and in my opinion it scares folks away from wanting to share their cars for fear they will be the butt of the joke.

Other than playing on the correct dated engine and the x33 code the seller hasn't really said much about the car. His knowledge is limited as he's stating it's a '68 built car. The seller has not done anything to deceive unless he knows the cowl tag is a replacement which I'm not 100% it is.

There are so many small things that stand out as not correct that the chances of this car (with no reserve) selling do high dollar is slim. If someone goes into the auction and hasn't done any homework, lights will come on when they find they are the only one bidding on the car...

When I made my second post in this thread I did so because there was a big bold "FRAUD" in the title (edited now to say "Questionable") and often it manifests into a big headach in the back room. Folks have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at a site like this. When I edit or move one post it can generate 3 or 4 e-mails. Imagine what someone trying to sell something would say if they saw the word "Fraud" and a link to their car"

As said before, do your research, be factual and choose your wording carefully. We encouraging educating those with less knowledge but frown on bashing or trying to show off at anothers expense...

Dennis my intentions were not to bash the seller . I enjoy the cars Barrett sells and they are probably one of the highest rated organizations that sell the cars we love.

If the car is late 69 rather then early 69 why would the sequence # be before my car when my car is truely a sept 68 car?

I'll be out there and will try to check it out

Good point on the date sequence DZ. The car is definitely questionable and there are a ton of things that can be picked apart for anyone in the know. Dennis has a good point as well but I still do not like seeing cars like this sold as a car that it may not be. It happens on ePay all the time and who is to say that this is not in fact a poorly made up clone. There are more things that lead me to think that this is a clone than there are correct and I for one do not buy the fact that it is legit.

The fact that is not reserved means nothing to me as Barrett charges a lot of money for a reserve car and if you look, the vast majority of cars being sold are not reserved because of what they are charging. Only the high bollar and big ticket cars seem to have reserves there. I hope Green Z gets a chance to look this car over. I will definitely be watching for it on the show and would like to see it sold for what it is and or what it's worth.

Those are my extra 2 bits!

About the sequence number...i was under the impression that with the new model year coming up the numbers were zero'd out and started from the beginning as in the case of the extented manufacturing of the Camaro due to some problems/situations. I remember seeing this topic somewhere, whether it was here on T.C. or the CRG website I don't recall. Can someone elaborate further? Like it has already been said on this, many small things have and will be replaced thru the years with incorrect/replacement parts that are available. Not everyone is a car nut like we are and I get very bored with the assumption that some people think everyone should be as smart as they are. Nobody is perfect as the saying goes.

This is only my opinion and doesn't reflect on anyone here, there, everywhere or nowhere. I believe that you can't change anyone, so leave them alone. Quote from my great Irish grandmother.

Looking at one of the popular restoration books shows a November 1969 car , X/ D80 coded with a BDY # of 152xxx.I am not sure when- but the Fisher BDY #'s were re- set. This may be another somewhat closely guarded issue to help protect authenticity, and that is OK with me.

Rob graemlins/beers.gif

Norwood cars had the Body Numbers reset to 1xxxxx in 08A of 1969. So its possible to have 2 1969 Camaro from Norwood to have the same body number but be 1 year apart in production. You have to go by the VIN which should be in the 68xxxx range for a Sept 1969 car. I have read this and seen tags like this.

This is mentioned HERE (http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#MidyearChanges)

1969 mid-year changes included:

327/2BC engine replaced with 307/2BC engine.
COPOs 9560/9651 released.
Libbey-Owens-Ford begins marking glass with "DOT-15."
D80 spoiler added to Z28 baseline.
Striping option additions/changes.
Chrome exhaust tips added to dual exhausts.
Z11 and Z10 Pace Car replicas introduced.
Fisher Body resets body number sequence in August 1969.


[ 01-18-2004, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: elcamino ]

DZ - The others beat me to it and have addressed the body number reset. I wasn't insinuating you were bashing, sorry if it sounded that way. I started my last post out addressing you for the build date but the overall message really went out to everyone. The last paragraph was a follow up to my orig message and not directed at anyone... graemlins/beers.gif

Green Z

Did you get a chance to look this car over at the auction, or did you see what it in fact sold for. Curious!

Scary - looks like it sold for $37,400.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/cardetail.asp?id=174792

Hugger I did look at the car, Lots and lots of things wrong with it. Here are a few. After market horns, aftermarket booster, chrome caps on intake bolts, bad paint, stripes were wrong. rusty staples on the inner door fuzzysand a bunch moore not to mention the trim tag issue and yes it was a Sept 68 car. All I have to say is most the camaros had issues and thats not a problem if the price reflects it but out there it doesn't they all do big money. Not the place to buy a car

Thanks for that info. Obviously not the place to buy, but sure is the place to sell if you want the big dollars. Given the fact that this sold in the thirties, and the yellow one was at 122K, If I ever want to sell a matching numbers correct car that is nice, thats where I will go.