IMO - Beautiful looking car but just do your homework if you are thinking of buying it. Trim tag looks fake.

http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/cyber/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=32777&exact_match=on&photo_size=full

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4509079578

[ 12-13-2004, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Hylton ]

I don't understand your criticism of his trim tag. There is nothing remarkable about it; not even an X code. The 11D would be correct for the VIN. The rivets look a little funny but I don't think there is anything wrong with the tag.

Just my $.02
Scott.

You are right about the 11D on the tag but IMO that tag looks fake.

[ 12-13-2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: Hylton ]

How can you tell, by the looks of the fonts? If you're going to fake a tag, why not go all out and change the build date and put an X code on it?

Maybe he just changed it to get a better color combo and left everything else the same. I do not want to say how I believe it is fake but if you study them as much as I have, it is obvious IMO.

[ 12-13-2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Hylton ]

originally posted by Hylton
I do not want to say how I know it is fake but if you study them as much as I have, it is obvious.Why don't you want to say? If you have knowlege about this, why not share it?

Theres plenty of 11D cars out there, the VIN is correct for an 11D build week, the body number is out of order with the other 11D cars by a considerable amount, don't see anything wrong with the tag (if it's fake its a good one), might have had to wait for some option to become available before being built. Tag doesn't indicate anything at that point in time other than colors, so it really doesn't matter if it's fake. It's not like anyone added X33 or something to a tag.


The ZL2 hood is not correct, long spoiler is post March of 69 so the car probably did not have spoilers originally, the chrome trim on the engine is incorrect, or the Ford fan sticker, but overall it looks like a nice car.

You don't tell how you know (or suspect) a tag is fake because then the people making them will fix whats wrong with the tags and no one will be able to tell which ones are real and which ones are fake. You offer the opinion if asked, or if it's obvious, just be able to back it up.

Hylton,

What is your opinion on this trim tag...?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4511224302&sspagen

Scott

Repo tags all have the same chacteristics that make them easy to spot. This one does not have them and compares well with the loose tags I have.

I believe it is original.

I agree with William, this ones looks to be original to me also.

It's real.

That festival car has many things wrong with it. Look at the shock towers and see if something looks strange to you. Look at the rear fold down seat. Does it look blue to you, and look at the white stripe, looks like it is correct? Look at the trim tag again, notice the "L" missing from the first position for the folding seat? If you look a little closer at the trunk pan, you can't see the backup light harness, which is suppose to be close to the bumper reinforcement. What else can you see wrong???? This car may very well be a pacer, but I see many things that don't add up to me. It's my .02 here.

I agree with you about the rear tail light harness. Like you said, the back-up light wires should go through a factory hole near the bumper support but not only does this go through a hole made in the trunk pan, if you look closely, that wire is actually spliced in to the original harness which leads me to believe that the tail light harness is from a non RS car. If a FULL trunk pan was not put in the car, why wouldn't he just use the original RS back-up light holes near the bumper supports to run the wires through?

Yes, the car has problems, but the cowl tag is original. The fold down seat was most likely added.

Rick over at CRG said that he talked with the owner today. Owner claims he didn't know about the staggered shocks and also says the motor is not original. Hmm, makes you think now that we have viewed the car in what the car really should have. Fixing the trunk pan to what it should be is going to cost major bucks to fix in a shop. Not too much if one of us fixed it. But still, I will argue that the car is not worth the asking price. Mind you, this is only my opinion. Don't flame me too much here.... smile.gif

Did anyone notice that the delivery date that is stamped on the VIN tag? Hmm, look hokey to you? The DD is actually stamped before the VIN plate was installed. Yet, the plate looks original. Usually with the DD, at least some of the ones I have seen, have it stamped on top of the plate (indented).

This thread started out talking about the red 1969 rs/ss and is now on the festival car..I think. I have been told the festival car also took a real hard hit in the front and the subframe had a major repair.

That's not the delivery date on the VIN, that's a GM stamped code. Don't know what it's for.

There are a lot of things that dont match up on this festival pace car.The hood is a 68,drivers side seat belt is standard & passenger side seatbelt is deluxe... trim tag is for deluxe.Why go to the trouble to paint interior black instead of leaving it blue? Seats are not deluxe .Shouldn't a "Z" be in group 2 for a Turbo400 tranny. The tag looks legit to me ,options just dont match up with trim tag.

[ 12-10-2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: twobytwo ]

Sorry to jump around so much but, back to the original post about the 69 rs/ss. I have a 11D car and my vin is 550984 and body is 182518 are those numbers right for the 11D specs. i know the Vin will be close but i'm sure of the body # after seing the original post's pictures. From every thing that i read on this sight i believe my car is a original RS/SS but who knows anymore. My trim tag looks a little different then the one in the original post, on mine the #'s and letters are bunched together.

The body number, build date and VIN line up correctly for your car. Take a look at my webpage below. There you will se clues to what an original RS/SS looks like as I was taking it apart.

Body number wise heres a car (on Ebay) that is close to the Body number on this RS/SS:
http://i19.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/f4/a4/f4_3.JPG

It's about 7 days or production time away based on Norwood making about 750 and LA building about 200 a day. Of course you have to realize that 69 body numbers unlike previous years represent the approved order number and are not sequential. When an order from a dealer was received and approved by GM the body number was assigned. The car was then scheduled to be built using that body number. Some cars were built right away others were delayed due to parts availability.

Thanks Jonesy, i tried to view your web sight but it would not come up?? I'll try later thanks

Jonesy,
I couldn't get to your website either...
Would like to check it out.
Thanks
Doug

Looks like the Hobbystage server is down. Hopefully it will be back up soon.

The 69 was never an RS. There is no headlght washer solinoid and the headlight doors are a bad fit.

IMHO... this site is starting to border on ridiculous..... http://www.columbusracing.com/ubb/graemlins/nonono.gif

What's bugging ya Steve, too much trim tag nit-pickin'?

Thanks for taking up for the red 69 rsss. I can insure you all that the trim tag and rivets are the very one's that the factory installed. as far as the engine the car has the very intake, exhaust manifolds and valve covers that were also installed at the factory as well, they come with the car, good shape and can be reinstalled if needed. As for the spoiler it was added to the car in the mid 80's. To be nice, the guy "Hylton" that started this post needs to keep his coments to hiself, for he is not half as sharp as he thinks but some people just have to stick there nose into something thanks

That still wasn't very nice Mr Restoration Specialist.

Yah, wut Paul sed.

hehehe

Originally posted by camaro joel:
To be nice, the guy "Hylton"....I'm sorry but I don't generally respond to illiterates. graemlins/clonk.gif

C'mon, guys, enough of the personal attacks. If you feel the need, take it off of TC. Thanks.

Hylton,

Remember that it was you who chose to accuse Joel (obviously the owner of the car in question) of having a fraudulent trim tag. And when you were called on the carpet to support your claim you simply stated that you knew how to tell the real tags from the fakes. You failed to dignify Joel (or the rest of us, for that matter) with reasonable proof of your claim. Your response calling him an illiterate was uncalled for and out of line in a public forum. A simple email to him explaining your reason for thinking that his trim tag was a replica would have been much more appropriate.

Aye, time to terminate this puppy, before I grind someones bones to make my bread....... graemlins/angry.gif Or is that a Giant??? :confused:

Scott,

My original post was my opinion and only that. To me, the tag looks tampered. I also stated that it was buyer beware as you should be with anything you are buying. I made this statement because I do not believe this car comes with any original documentation or history of all the previous owners. I encourage anyone who is interested in this car to bid on it or contact "Camaro Joel" about it.

Let's reflect on this a bit. It seems in an effort to help we can sometimes do more harm than good. To have an opinion about something vs knowing something for a cold hard fact is often at the root of the problem. This can so easily be avoided if we learn to communicate our opinions in such a way it isn't taken as a statement of fact by others. IMO, In My Opinion added to a sentence or starting with "I believe" is all it takes. The title of a thread is often used to make a strong statement, if we tone them down we are not setting ourselves up for as many arguments.

There is plenty of info about these cars that is too vague to accept everything we've ever learned about them as hard cold facts. Be open minded to that when sharing with others, it helps. There are also a couple schools of thought on knowledge. One is, if all the secrets to identifying these cars were shared openly then the crooks will know how to beat the system. The other is education helps everyone spot the bogas car, the more people that know the secrets the better...

This is a 2 way street, the bad guys will seek out the uneducated if we don't educate and if we educate everyone the task of verifying a car gets harder as the bad guys get smarter too... I don't know which is the worst of 2 evils but tend to lean toward educate the masses...

To sum all this up, think about what you post before posting it and read what you write before hitting the submit button. After all we are all here to help each other!

I have edited my original post to include "In my opinion" to set the record straight.

Hylton, I think you missed the point. If you had added, "in my opinion" to the first post then it would not have gone to this extent. I read everything in this thread, and I for one was looking for those who know the insight of the trim tags to "educate" us. Knowledge is power in our hobby.

Originally posted by 67CruiseMasterCamaro:
Hylton, I think you missed the point. If you had added, "in my opinion" to the first post then it would not have gone to this extent. I read everything in this thread, and I for one was looking for those who know the insight of the trim tags to "educate" us. Knowledge is power in our hobby. Actually I do get the point. You want me and/or others to tell you how to properly compare a fake trim tag to a real one. As Mark has stated in his last paragraph, I am not willing to "educate" others because I believe that those making these tags will also be educated and then make them absolutely perfect. Drop me a PM and maybe I can give you a few things to look at in greater detail.

In the interest of getting along maybe it's best if a participant isn't willing to provide proof they should avoid pick things apart! That doesn't mean not participating... Just work within what you are willing to share openly.

After this whole endever I think there has been enough posted to say the tag isn't a fake. Hylton I can only guess maybe something you thought was a fact has been disproved in all this. Chalk it up to learning another small part of the puzzle...

I took the links to the two tags out because of concerns over educating the wrong people. But those of you that saw them side by side now know that they are out there.

[ 12-14-2004, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]

I don't know which is which, but the first thing that pops out to me is the way the # 2's look, they definately look different between the two tags?????

Looks to me that the 4's are different too. Matter of fact the 5's are different too besides the 2's.

Thanks Mark for turning this into a positive experience. We now have benchmark pictures and something to learn with. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

67Cruise and kz are both correct. The 6 and 9 also are both different. The top tag is fake after looking at my own tag.

[ 12-14-2004, 07:23 AM: Message edited by: Gary L ]

Gary I believe there were two different size tags used in '69...

That really confuses things. If that is the case, what is the difference? Maybe different fonts were used also. Oh I see. CRG has it as early/late tags. Sorry.

[ 12-14-2004, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Gary L ]

Have we gone too far already? I only ask this because this has already been discussed to the point of enlightening some not so honest folks of some subtle differences. As an honest, legit Camaro enthusiast, I too want to be educated on this subject, but in talking about it publicly, educates all the scumbags also (like previously mentioned). It's easy to spot the 2's and 5's when you have them side by side. Maybe they can't do any better than the fakes they are making now. You don't think they haven't had many examples of real tags to make templates of?, and don't see these things as well as we do? I never thought about it until I joined this forum. Now I know the difference between original rivets and non original. I didn't know cowl tags were being reproduced until recently.
If I was a crook, I have already discovered two flaws that need correcting just by reading this thread. I liken it to money counterfeiting. Who hasn't scanned a $20 just to see how it looked? ( o.k. maybe I'm the only one), but it looks damn good, and given the right paper and all the subtle differences, hologram etc...Voila, I'm making money. I put cowl tag counterfeiting in the same category, and that would be a walk in the park compared to money. People do it to take advantage of those less educated and make money. It's a catch 22. Educate the honest so they don't get burned, but at the same time educate the thief so he can be a better thief. I recall a previous post where someone said they thought the site (and I assume this specific topic), bordered on ridiculous, because we were discussing it. I don't agree. People (scumbags) are preying on the uneducated for a profit, and it might not change anything but I think it should be discussed. IMO.

...Could we get a DNA sample?... graemlins/clonk.gif

It has been a long time since the red car was built,IMO I would be willing to excuse the headlight washer solonoid being gone. The doors can be shimmed, etc. I would think. Interesting discussion though! Had to pop some corn for this one- sure better than the Cowboy game. BTW, I kinda like the car (the red one).

Cheers-

Rob

Originally posted by olympic69:
.... Interesting discussion though! Had to pop some corn for this one- sure better than the Cowboy game. BTW, I kinda like the car (the red one). Cheers-

Rob I've got the popcorn going as well. The more I sit this out, the more someone else comes in and makes my point.

Originally posted by Mark C:
I took the links to the two tags out because of concerns over educating the wrong people. But those of you that saw them side by side now know that they are out there. I don't think it makes a difference. Do you think that "the wrong people" don't know this already? I am sure the tag reproducers know their fonts are wrong. I am the wrong person because I didn't know until now. graemlins/beers.gif

Yup, I agree! I'm sure the "bad guys" looked at real tags when they created theirs. I'm also sure that they can tell the slight differences between theirs and the real ones.

If they are smart enough to counterfeit them, I'm sure that they are smart enough to see the differences.

No, I know that the guys making them know what the differences are. If I can collect thousands of tag images off of Ebay and other places so can they. I think that the people that make the tags, have invested some amount of money in the machines that have now to make these stamps and maybe it's not worth the reinvestment to correct certain things. But certainly we (the hobby) don't want the next guy that comes along and decides to make tags to be easily able to figure out how the older tags are deficient and make better ones. Discussing it or not will not keep the info from being found, it will only delay it. I don't really know what the answer is to the problem.

As I've said previously out of all the 69 trim tag images I have, I'm running at about 3% being fakes, and 99 percent of these are made up of Z28's, SS's and one Z11. I can't say how many of these tags are on clones, and how many of them are because of things like exterior or interior color changes, or tag replacements.

Fake tags, POPs, window stickers, restamped motors, transmissions, and rear axles are a huge problem, especially with the appreciation in value these cars (and other models) are experiencing. It's coming to the point where you almost have to hire someone to look at daily driver Z28's and big blocks to make sure your not going to end up with a clone, but paying for the real thing.

Probably should start a new topic, if the discussion is to continue just to disassociate it with the original subject, and the red RS/SS which has nothing to do with the current discussion.

Originally posted by Mark C:
Discussing it or not will not keep the info from being found, it will only delay it. I don't really know what the answer is to the problem.

It's coming to the point where you almost have to hire someone to look at daily driver Z28's and big blocks to make sure your not going to end up with a clone, but paying for the real thing.

Unfortunately, (for the hobby), I think you answered your own "question". This is what it is coming to.