Another reason repro trim tags should not be legal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6161&item=2488757045&rd=1

http://i13.ebayimg.com/03/i/02/63/f3/4d_12_s.JPG

If you change the tags that identify a cars options is it really a clone, tribute car, or whatever else you want to call it, or is it something else. Note that no where in the ad is the word clone or repro trim tag used.

What makes this a repro tag? Give me some hints.

Seller isn't informing about repro tag or clone - so its selling based on false info, isn't that illigal???


Mark how do you spot those fake trim tags?

This one is fairly easy.
CRG 67 Trim Tag Code Table (http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#67Codes)

Keep in mind this is an LA car. Supposedly a big block with a TH400, and then look at option group 2 on the link. See if something jumps out at you about the 2ZG option codes.

Know your code combinations before you make a new trim tag for your car.

[ 09-05-2004, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: Mark C ]

2ZG indicates it has the M40 (TH400) transmission and the D55 console - right. But the Z was only used in Norwood build cars and this is a LA car - correct.
Ok I get it now - great that somebody knows the numbers - thanks Mark

By the way what is the trim code for the TH400 on 67 LA cars?

2M.

Good call Mark.

I am the seller Mark. The car isn't mine. This car was restored by Mark Young from the Camaro Connection in Portland Oregon. He sells many high dollar cars at places such as Barrett Jackson. It was sold to the current owner as a numbers match car. I have added an update as to the forum's letting me know about the possibility the tag isn't orignal. There is nothing in the listing however that says this is a numbers match car. I have had threatening emails from some forum members - that say they have turned the listin over to the FBI and that I have 12 hours to end it etc. I don't think this is a really great use of the forums resources, nor do I like being slandered. Please don't beat me up or threaten me - helpful emails are fine - the others are, well, just unnappreciated. ( I have recieved over 50 and most from members of this forum) Just my thoughts on the matter. I will send you a picture of the trim tag on my personal 396 3 speed car that my family purchased from the original owner in 1977 and see what you have to say about it's trim tag. I am curious to know!! Tim :)

That sucks about the threats, but I wouldn't worry about the FBI coming to bust you for a suspicious trim tag!! :D

Good luck selling the car.

Tim, you can disregard anyone telling you the FBI will get involved with a cowl tag, its NOT illegal to change those.
Its not highly appreciated by most people, but not illegal. Mark's comment 'it should be illegal' is held by alot of folks, including myself, who worry about future people being burned.
It IS illegal to change VIN's and of course nobody is accusing you of that at all.
Mark was only informing potential buyers that its possible that the cowl tag was not the original one. Its an automatic heads up in these forums and many others that an altered cowl tag MAY indicate other things are not original too.
We have so many folks that come here in search of resto information only to find out they were taken by a seller and their car isnt what it was thought to be.
If cowl tag changes were illegal, it would help cut down on the fraud thats permeating this industry now.
I hope your car is everything thats indicated on the tag. If not, its a buyers right to know it before he makes a purchase. If he does his homework on sites like this and others, he will make an informed decision.
Mark and the other experts on these things are doing a great service to the industry and we respect their insight and advice.

That's not right, no one should be threatening anyone about a trim tag. If you didn't know it was swapped, and the owner doesn't know it was swapped then neither of you did anything wrong. This is why the repo trim tags shouldn't be available to anyone. Someone builds a clone and sells it to someone else for a quick buck, and somewhere down the line someone gets stuck with a car they paid to much for.

I didn't post this for people to be threatening anyone, it's was for educational purposes only, to illustrate the fact that these cars are out there.

As I said before, I've got about 1800 trim tag images from all three first generation Camaros and the repro tag percentage is running about 3 to 4 percent (68 excluded cause there's no point). Granted the data is skewed because I get them from places like Ebay where people are selling them. Amazingly, most of the repro tags are on Z28's and big blocks. :D .

It's not illegal to change a trim tag, so there is no law enforcement involvement, but sometimes you need to worry about the guy you sell the car to more than the cops. My comment is that it should be illegal to make them, which of course would solve the problem associated with installing them. Good for you if you at least acknowledge there may be issues with the tag. At least the buyer won't be able to say he didn't know anything about it.

Everybody ease up with the emails, theres no cause for it..

It sure is a nice looking car! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Does anyone know if Mark Young is the person that sold the $100,000+ Z28 sold at the BJ auction?

I don't see anything wrong with what you posted Mark. This forum is a great education.

Goodguytim, very nice looking car. How about joining these forums on a regular basis. You seem very knowledgable.

Yes it is a very nice looking car. Mark builds nice cars and yes he was the one that put together the Yellow Z/28 JL8 car that sold at Barrett Jackson. He also put together another JL8 Z/28 that sold to the runner up of that same auction some 3 weeks later in Florida for over 100K. As a matter of fact, he has another one listed on his web site right now. He sell's repop parts for the JL8 brakes on eBay and also makes his own crossram intakes.

http://www.chevconnection.com/69z28jl8xram.htm

Thank you for the words of support guys. I sincerely appreciate it. All I was trying to do is sell the car for the owner who is a friend of mine. All I get out of the deal is the money to cover expenses on eBay. I will keep an eye on this site and post if it's cool with others. I personally own a Marina Blue '67 3speed (M13) car that has been in my family since 1977. I have owned somwhere in the neighborhood of 40 first gen. Camaros and a dozen or so of the other gen cars. My profession is managing the sales dept of a Chevrolet dealership. I got kind of burned out on the numbers thing while messing with Vettes for a little while. My car is pretty stock looking but has some upgrades here and there for driveability and reliability. I will put in a pic soon. I play primarily with Hot Rods and Customs now, but my Camaro is near and dear to me. Do any of the others in here miss the days when we could buy the bitchin'est Z/28 or SS for 2k or so and janes could be had for 500ish?? I just get blown away at the thought of 100k plus Z's and such. Oh well - I will quit my rant and lament and get back to work. Thanks again for those of you with supporting and kinder words!! :)

Thank you for the words of support guys. I sincerely appreciate it. All I was trying to do is sell the car for the owner who is a friend of mine. All I get out of the deal is the money to cover expenses on eBay. I will keep an eye on this site and post if it's cool with others. I personally own a Marina Blue '67 3speed (M13) car that has been in my family since 1977. I have owned somwhere in the neighborhood of 40 first gen. Camaros and a dozen or so of the other gen cars. My profession is managing the sales dept of a Chevrolet dealership. I got kind of burned out on the numbers thing while messing with Vettes for a little while. My car is pretty stock looking but has some upgrades here and there for driveability and reliability. I will put in a pic soon. I play primarily with Hot Rods and Customs now, but my Camaro is near and dear to me. Do any of the others in here miss the days when we could buy the bitchin'est Z/28 or SS for 2k or so and janes could be had for 500ish?? I just get blown away at the thought of 100k plus Z's and such. Oh well - I will quit my rant and lament and get back to work. Thanks again for those of you with supporting and kinder words!! :)

you know this stuff is going on everyday , this is not my opinion but a FACT you know if guy's have enough knowlege to catch a fake tag then some guy's have the knowledge to make one correct that can NOT be told from the original ,,, I have laughed at my favorite clone since the early 80's when they first started ,, YEP THE 1969 Z/28 !!!!
it is rare to see a 69 that is not a Z/28 ,, as someone here said they leave the 68 out WHAT's THE POINT 68 tags have no info other than body color or so ,,, I also wish they would not make repop trim tags and fake 1969 Z/28's and 396 375's but they do so I just sit back and laugh ,,

Some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves...

Geesh! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by RS3SDL2MG:
you know this stuff is going on everyday , this is not my opinion but a FACT you know if guy's have enough knowlege to catch a fake tag then some guy's have the knowledge to make one correct that can NOT be told from the original ,,, I have laughed at my favorite clone since the early 80's when they first started ,, YEP THE 1969 Z/28 !!!!
it is rare to see a 69 that is not a Z/28 ,, ,,, I also wish they would not make repop trim tags and fake 1969 Z/28's and 396 375's but they do so I just sit back and laugh ,, I sold the 1st 69 Camaro I owned in 1973. It was a factory air 307 LeMans blue coupe with a console and a turbohydramatic. I put Monte Carlo Rally Wheels on it because I was not wild about the wire wheel hubcaps it came with When I sold it the guy that bought it painted it grey with black stripes and put Z28 emblems on it (4). I saw the car a month later and talked to the then proud new owner (I was the 2nd owner). She was SOOOO HAPPY to have found a Z28 with auto and air, she was beside herself.

THIS WAS IN 1973!

At that same time I knew LOTS of people that "converted" 4-speed SS small blocks to Z28's with paint and emblems, after all they already had a 12 bolt and disc brakes and the 4-speed, who cared if it still had the anemic (remember, no torque) 302 in it or not, a 350 was "better", and "everyone knew" that a Z28 had a 12 bolt and disc brakes with a 4-speed,

It has been going on probably since the cars were still on the dealer lots new.

I agree with Jim above. There were tons of z28 emblems sold before 1980 and cloning has been going on for a long, long time. I would still say that most of the fakes are pretty easy to figure out, but someday it may get hard to tell with all the knowledge thats out there.