Hi,presently my 67 Camaro has manual steering and drum brakes.I,m converting to disk breakes and power steering.I plan on using a 68/69 Camaro power steering idler arm and a 67 power steering pitman arm.What year,and what kind of inner and outer tie rods,and likewise on the upper and lower ball joints?Please excuse me for asking so many questions,but I'm unexperienced at this and want to do it right.Thank you very,very much for the replies and help.

MOOG~

K5103 Stock Lower Ball Joint
K5108 Stock Upper Ball Joint
ES681N Stock Inner Tie Rod
ES381RL Stock Outer Tie Rod
K6582 Power Steering Pitman Arm
K6099 Power Steering Idler Arm

**EDIT, the spelling of the "cut and paste job" from the manufacturers web site was too damn funny.

[ 07-09-2004, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: chicane67 ]

chicane, that is a pretty impressive post and reply... wish more of us could be so precise and EXACTLY to the point.

Thanks for the reply.For some reason I came up with the # ES348R for the outer tie rod,but if you say different I'll trust you.What about sleeves?ES350S ?Again thank's a bunch. graemlins/beers.gif

I just looked up ES381RL and it showes it's for a 68-69 Camaro.Am I to use that because I'm using a 68-69 idler arm? Thanks. graemlins/waving.gif

When I ordered my T/R's and B/J's I told them 67. It doesn't matter if the idler is a 68-69 it will bolt up. I used TRW's, I think they bought out MOOG.

I don't think it would matter if you ordered them for a 70 Nova. The Control Arms are exactly the same and so is the front subframe and rest of steering.

Like Novaderrick says his, " 1971 Nova (looks like 69 camaro from underneath) "

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Originally posted by RamJam:
I used TRW's, I think they bought out MOOG.
Actually just the opposite. TRW as a whole, sold all divisions to other companies. The auotmotive divisions went to Sealed Pro and MOOG. Their Space and Avionics divisions went to Northrop Grumman Co. and some other black companies.

Robert~ Get the part numbers off of the steering arms that you have and are going to be using. It should not make a difference, because the 67 thru 69 is pretty much the same, but there are some length differences in steering arms between the three years. Like I said, it shouldnt make a difference......

Robert,
I just got done doing the same thing to my ’67 convertible. Get the 68-69 Idler arm, it is about half price of the 67 and it works fine. You can use 67 parts for the rest. Carquest brand parts are repackaged MOOG and they had everything I needed in stock. I used sleeves from Colman racing because I didn’t like the cheesy stock ones, but I had to cut about a half inch off the outer tie rods to get the correct toe in. Here’s a pic. (I think) http://camaroz28.cardomain.com/memberpage/480078. I used the single piston calipers off of a 69.
Good luck, you are going to love it!

Thanks for all the replies. Chicane 67,I finally got the #s off the steering arms,they are 3902518GM2X & 3902517GM1.Should I still use the parts you sugested? Thank's again for all the help. graemlins/waving.gif

The outer tie rod ends on 67's are listed as having longer shanks than 68/69.

67 outer tie rod
ESN348R Zerk to end of shank, 4.62"

68/69 outer tie rod end
ESN348RL Zerk to end of shank, 5.75"

There may be a difference in adjuster sleeve length between 67 and 68/9.

If you have a 67 or 69 adjuster sleeve length, please post it here. My 67 has a length of 6".

David

[ 07-18-2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

Here is my front end parts list:
MOOG 67/69 camaro steering and suspension part numbers


MOOG
Both sides outer tie rod 67 ES348R (4.62" long)
Both sides outer tie rod 68-69 ES381RL (5.75" long)
Both sides Inner tie rod 67-69 ES681N
Toe in adjuster sleeve 68-69 ES350S
Toe in adjuster sleeve 67 no part number. length, 6"

Upper ball joint K5108 67-69
Lower ball joint K5103 67-69

Upper control arm Shaft kit Moog# K5250 (Offset)

Idler arm + bracket K6099 all 68-69 5.375" long - cast iron, not forged steel.
Idler arm, K6093 all 67 5 3/4" long (no longer available)

Pitman, manual K6150 68-69 (short)
Pitman K6151 PS, short 5.25"
Pitman, PS K6154, 67-69 5.78" long (probably 5 3/4") 32 splines 1.1-1.18 diam. No longer available from Moog.
Pitman, PS , long, Moog# 6582 New production run, no grease fitting - Currently available at any auto parts store that sells Moog parts. These appear to be less durable than grease fitting type, have plastic injected around the stud.

Pitman, PS long, TRW # 18770 Same as above. Probably a Moog part in a TRW box.
NOTE: There are two length pitman arms for power and two lengths for manual. Std 17 to 1 ratio power steering uses 5.25"
Optional fast ratio manual or PS, uses 5.7" long Pitman arm.

Originally posted by davidpozzi:
If you have a 67 or 69 adjuster sleeve length, please post it here. My 67 has a length of 6".

David Ditto here Dave, 6" adjuster sleeve on my 67.

Bob.

Thanks Dave.Let me check to make sure I have this right.On my 67 Camaro,that was originaly manual steering,I,m removing my steering box and replacing it with a quick ratio(3 turns end to end)steering box from a 74 Trans Am.I'm replacing my outer tie rod with a moog ES348R,my inner tie rod with a moog ES681N ,and a toe in adjuster sleeve part # unknown but 6 inches long.The upper ball jouint is to be a moogK5108,and the lower should be a moog K5103.The idler arm should be a moog K6093, and the pitman should be moog 6582,or trw 18770.All of this is for my 67 with steering arms 3902518GM2X, & 3902517GM1.I'm thinking of going with TRW parts due to price.Would you happen to have the TRW part #'s I need?Thank you very much.I really apreciate all the assistance and feel very fortunate to hafe shuch a great web-site to go to for help.Keep up the good job. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Here is where I got the numbers, or most of them.
Thanks to HwyStarJoe!!!

http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=003770#000000

Thanks,I went to that site and noticed it was for a 69 Camaro.I E-mailed HiwayJo and asked for that info for a 67.Again thank you very mach for the reply. graemlins/waving.gif

Here is where He got the info:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/moog/steering_suspension.html
The numbers I gave you above that were marked 67 were from a Moog Catalog but I don't have a TRW catalog. If you will buy the parts at an auto parts store, they can look them up. The only parts different for a 67 are the outer tie rod ends and the idler arm. The disc brakes are different but not part of this discussion.

Your outer steering arms are long so the steering will be kinda slow. The 74 box is not a fast one like the later cars use, unless it's a variable ratio box, which might be possible with a TA. You will need a power steering coupler, hopefully you got the one that came with the box or get a replacement from Lee.
David

[ 07-20-2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: davidpozzi ]

Thanks Dave.I clicked on that site and it came back "no longer in service".Is there a different site I can go to? Again thanks for the reply. graemlins/waving.gif

Hey Dave,I just rechecked my power steering box and it is 3 revolutions end-to-end. tongue.gif

Originally posted by roberttalsma:
Hey Dave,I just rechecked my power steering box and it is 3 revolutions end-to-end. tongue.gif Three sounds pretty good.
You can determine if it's variable by using a degree wheel as I have on my web page, but first find center of travel and back off a half turn of the input shaft, then measure degrees of output for one turn of the input. That way, you are measuring the on-center turn ratio.

Another way is to remove the aluminum cap bolts, loosen the lock nut, turn the adjuster screw down a couple of turns and swing the aluminum cap to one side. Look at the gears inside and if the output shaft has a long center tooth compared to the side teeth, it's a variable ratio box.

Here is a link to Moog and TRW lookups:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/channel/index/0,2186,2442_7691923,00.html
David

Hey Dave,again thanks for the reply and information.Unfortunatly I could'nt find my way around in that web-site,sorry.It was sooooo nice the way it was speeled out in Hwy Star Joe's Posting - 08-08-2002 "Replacement Part #'s for Steering/Suspension Long .Like I said earlier I E-mailed him and asked for help in getting a 67 listing.I haven't heard back from yet,maybe I'll try again.Anyway again thank you very much for the replies and information. :rolleyes:

Hi, just to let you guys know you can purchase the correct idler arm for a 67 via a company called Rare Parts (http://www.rareparts.com/) however you will have to find a distributor for them as they only sell wholesale.

I beleive the part number is RP20227

Take care

Todd!
Speed Tech Performance (http://www.speedtech-performance.com)

Wow,am I getting burned-out , and frustrated.All I need now is the corect part number for a 67 Camaro with a 327 engine " TRW " outer tie rod end.I got two MOOG #'s from this site for it,they are-ES348R & ESN348R. I tell you I'm going crazy trying to get all this together.The parts place I'm dealing with (Murray's)computer and books only go back to 68 .They say 67/69 take the some part,but through this site I've been told 67 outer tie rod end is different than 68/69. Thanks for any replies. graemlins/clonk.gif

Since I'm having such a hard time getting 67 #'s can I just go ahead and use 68 parts instead? :confused:

I don't see why not, I may do that myself.
David

Can I use the pitman arm from the 74 Trans Am box on my 67 Camaro? The part # is 7809576. Thanks smile.gif

Originally posted by roberttalsma:
Can I use the pitman arm from the 74 Trans Am box on my 67 Camaro? The part # is 7809576. Thanks smile.gif No way! If you saw them you'd know why.
David

Rob, I don't know what to tell you man. I emailed you.
If the pitman arms will swap.... maybe. Maybe JIML82 will have some insight into using that T/A steering box.

Isn't there anybody out there with a 67 Camaro that has put new TRW inner & outer tie rods on thier car that could share the information with us ? That is what were the part #'s ? graemlins/waving.gif

Robert...

I have owned several 67's and always used the same part number on them that GM listed for 67~69 Outers #3986491. This is the same as TRW #ES381R.

GM part numbers as follows;

#3986491 = 1967~69, Outer Tie Rod
#3986489 = 1967~69, Inner Tie Rod
#3855946 = 1967~69, Sleeve unit-front tie rod
#3886435 = 1967~69, Clamp - Sleeve unit
#3908383 = 1967, Lever assembly - Steering Idler
#3989447 = 1968~69, Lever assembly-Steering Idler

I just listed these part numbers to show what GM thought was interchangable between these years (Pitmans are all over the place but I do have some of those numbers).

There was a listing on here by Hwy Star or myself or ??? sometime back that gave all the suspension numbers.

I try to stay out of this forum and let the experts answer these questions but, I hope some of this helps;

John

The only gears I see listed for a 1974 F-car are the variable ratio 16-13:1 types. The problem with the Saginaw variable ratio gears is that the first number (16:1) is the overcenter ratio. The second number (13:1) is the near full lock ratio. I don't think that you want a variable ratio gear.

A variable ratio gear will cut down on the total number of steering wheel turns but it will be a real dog (slow) over center. That is why most people go for the later 1982 thru 1993 12.7:1 gears.

Thank's for the replies .I think I will go with all TRW parts for a 68 Camaro. That's ball joints,tie rods,sleeves,idler arm,pitmam arm ,and springs.But still if anyone has any input on this please by all means chime in. graemlins/waving.gif

The last TRW suspension part I bought had a Moog balljoint in the box! smile.gif
David

Federal Mogul\Moog website:
http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/channel/index/0,2186,2442_7110,00.html

Parts lookup website for TRW, Federal Mogul, Moog:
http://webepc.wrencheadpro.com/cgi-bin/sewse?/u/www/webepc.com/cmm/scripts/epc10.cmm+fedmog

Hey Joe,THANKS alot. That website for the TRW part #'s is the best. Again THANKS abunch,I sure do appreciate it. graemlins/hurray.gif

Here's another one:
http://www.partsamerica.com/PPF/MfrCode/TRW/BrandCategories.asp

I think there should be a thread featured at the top with nothing but links to info like this. Questions about part numbers and what fits what come up at least 10 times a week.

Thank you everyone.Please excuse me for not replying sooner.I collected all my data and went to "Murrays" and ordered all my part.I got upper & lower ball joints,inner&outter tie rods,sleves ,idler arm,pitman arm,&new coil springs.All that in TRW for$250.They let me use thier ball joint compressor and coil spring compressor free.Everything went in without a problem.I'm a happy camper and owe a big THANK YOU to all of you. graemlins/waving.gif graemlins/hurray.gif

Great! I like hearing the outcome, no matter what it is.
graemlins/beers.gif

hi i recenly purchased a 67 camaro convertible 6 cylinder drum brakes all around pretty much a bare (no options) bones car but the condition is excellent. i would like to improve the braking without putting discs up front. would adding a new power brake booster amd master cylinder up front help me out ? any help would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!! p.s. the car currently has good shoes and drums and a dual master cylinder...thx again chris smile.gif

Chris, Welcome to Team Camaro!

There's an aftermarket brakes manufacturer that offers drum brakes that are much improved over the factory stuff. Larger\wider drums, better shoes, etc. I can't remember which company it is... Baer, Wilwood, SSBC. I see their ad in Chevy High Performance and Super Chevy magazines all the time.
Check it out.

Also, a search on the forums here will net you some info on drum brake parts from a couple different models of Chevy's that are an improvement over the First Gen. Camaro stuff. Same deal... larger drums, etc. that still fit inside 15" wheels.

Adding power to manual brakes is always an option too. Add the booster and change a couple lines (they won't fit anymore) and you'll be set. I'm not sure if the master cylinder you have now would also need to be changed.

*EDIT* The manufacturer I was thinking of is Master Power Brakes (MP Brakes). They offer a bigger drum - 11" - and ceramic shoes.

[ 08-09-2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: HwyStarJoe ]

11" drums are only for the rear!!

I have yet to find out how GM put the 11" drums on the front of the '65, Z-16, BB Chevelle???

The oh, so rare, Z-16 came stock with 11" drums on the rear too...

pdq67

Originally posted by chris toma:
i would like to improve the braking without putting discs up front. would adding a new power brake booster amd master cylinder up front help me out ? Contact 'Praise Dyno Brake' (don't have link but you can 'google' it).
They specialize in improved performance friction material for drum and disc applications.
The initial cost of the linings is higher than standard but, much less than a disc conversion. The rear linings for my 1 ton truck were @$120.oo.
I've used their lining on a couple vehicles, trucks and some trailers - they work great! Shorter stoping distances and no noticable fade in repeated applications or coming down I-80 or the "Grapevine".
They will tailor a system to your requirements.

Hope this helps;

John

http://www.praisedynobrake.com/

I've heard of the "Grapevine" Hwy before...

What's its number and would I have been on it heading outta Ontario going to Tehachapi??

Or going from Ontario to Huntington Beach??

Seems I've been on it years ago and may not have known it is all.....

pdq67

This message is getting off subject so I'm locking it.
I've made it a "sticky" post so the info will be availabe to the forum.

Please feel free to start another post on brakes.
David