This is mainly for Mr. Pozzi, but anybody else feel free to chime in. I've seen your website, and it's fantastic. My 67 is originally a six cylinder with manual steering. The outer steering arms are P/N 3902518GM2A (right) and 3902517GM1B (left). Measure the "length" as you show on your website, these measure about 3 3/4" from the tie rod hole to the first bolt hole. Are these "short", "long", or somewhere in between? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks!

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67 502 Richmond 6-speed
........ eventually

Kbcamaro,
If you measured it the way I did in the photo below and got more than 3.25" then it's either the "long" arm or something in between.
If you measure on an angle not level with the mounting holes, you will get a longer measurement.
The numbers on the arms are probably from a particular stamping die and when worn out might be replaced with a different number.
Yours are lower numbers than any I have.
Thanks for the info and numbers, I'll list them on my page when I figure out what length they are.
If they are on the car, try measuring from the lower ball joint zerk fitting to the tie rod end zerk. that measurement should be from 5.25" to 5.3", that's the short arm. I'm still figuring this stuff out, so any info is appreciated.
David
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/camaro_outersteer_arm_short.jpg

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 03-15-2001).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 03-15-2001).]

Actually, I'm in the process of restifying the car, so the arms are off. I just finished sandblasting and painting them. If these numbers are earlier, then I suppose it's best to do the measurement on ANY arm I find to make sure it's the short one. I tried to do the measurement in the same manner as depicted in the picture you replied with, and that's where I get the 3 3/4" number. If I tilt the ruler up or down from level 30 or 40 degrees, I can get it to read over 4", but the shortest reading is about 3 3/4". I'm gonna try to measure some off a buddy's car to see what they measure. Any idea where I can get short ones if mine are really the long ones?

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67 502 Richmond 6-speed
........ eventually

I believe any PS 67-69 camaro, or nova up thru 79, would have the short arms.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

David, the discussion you had with Mark Canning on www.camaros.org (http://www.camaros.org) about a year ago had info for three sets of steering arms. He listed numbers for standard "long" arms, short "N40/N44" arms and a third listing for JL8 arms. Maybe there is an intermediate set between long and short?

Trying to find the short ones has been difficult for me-rare as hens teeth apparently, at least around here. I've been looking for a while and think I've finally located a set. David, if I do indeed turn up a pair of short arms, I can get you a side by side picture with the longs ones I've got now if you'd like.

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

Bret,
Thanks, I'd like a photo for my web page.
the jl8 number is interesting, Probably a very rare piece!
anything is possible with these arms!
Maybe the JL8 arms were done differently to fix bumpsteer!
Just hoping!
The Jerry MacNesh book has a photo of two lengths of outer arms in it. No mention of a third.
I wanted to use the photo in my web page but don't want to without permission.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I wanted to add I found the numbers for the stock steering arms that came on my 67 camaro. they are the same as your arm numbers.

It came with manual steering and the arms were 6" long from center of balljoint to arm hole. As far as I know these are the long arms.
I don't know what length pitman arm was on there because the dealer installed PS about two months after I bought the car in oct of 66.
Can you give me the lock to lock turns and length of your manual pitman arm?
Thanks, David

PS, with these arms you will have 3.5 to 4 turns lock to lock with a stock box. With a 69 up variable ratio you would have less, and with a 12 to 1 box you would probably have 2.5 turns lock to lock, with the short outer arms on there, you would have between 2 and less than 2 turns using a 12.4 to 1 box.
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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 03-18-2001).]

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 03-23-2001).]

David,

The box is out of the car in a bucket right now. The only thing I could tell you is how many turns stop to stop is on the bare box. I assume that number will be greater than with the box installed in the car if the spindle hits before the box reaches it's stop . . . . is that correct? I'll look at it and also measure the Pitman arm. I've got a suspension kit from PST for the front that includes the idler arm. I may need to get back with you when I start reassembly to find out if the one they sent with the kit is "correct". Also, do you know about the larger diameter drag link for big blocks? I'm planning on a 502, so I'd like to have the bigger drag link. Where can I get one?

I'll post the numbers in a day or two.

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67 502 Richmond 6-speed
........ eventually

Well perserverance paid off I suppose! I finally have my short arms-came yesterday. This morning I had an e-mail from another source that has located a pair of short arms. He's asking $60 for the pair plus $5 to ship to me (he's in California). If anyone is interested let me know, I'll get you in touch with him. I feel like I need to find a buyer since he went and dug some up, or that I need to but them myself-but I don't need two sets!

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

I have two sets. I want to try heating/bending one set. If that turns out OK, I'll post back and sell the other set. What kind of heat source do I need?

A cutting torch w/ a "rosebud" tip on it and heat to bright red to orange or until the arm bends easily. Don't over do it but heat and bend slowly and cool as slow as you can. Don't quench!! Right, David?? pdq67

You need a Acetylene torch.
Heat between the spindle hole and the stop pad. Give the heat time to penetrate the metal as the outside will heat up faster than the inside, don't oveheat to a bright red, heat to a dull or dark red and use a carburizing flame (excess Acetylene) on the torch. There should be no sparkling or bubbling of the metal.
Bend with even force. I have a drawing and instructions on my suspension page.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I sent Rare Parts an e-mail. The response I got was that there is not a stock application that will work, but they are able to make an outer tie rod that has a longer stud! I said I was looking for one with another 1/2" in length, does it seem that would be the optimum? I also am not 100% sure on the design. Since the stud would be custom made, do you think it would be better if there were a shoulder machined for the steering arm to rest on since it would not be so near the ball part of the stud? Or would the taper alone be enough to hold everything together?
They haven't gotten back to me yet on pricing, I imagine that a larger quantity order would help to reduce the cost though. Maybe if this catches on well enough it could become a standard production part for them?!? Anyone interested so far? I'll post more info as I get it.

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

Bret, I would be interested.

Bret,
Great news, I would make it the same as a 69 end with about 3/8" to 1/2" added to the stud. If they had a ballstud allready produced that came near that, I'd use it.
That company is geared to doing small numbers of parts, even rebuilding yours, so I think they are the best to do it.
I haven't bumpsteered enough Camaros to tell what the length should be. I once called Guldstrand and he said they usually have to lower the outer end a half inch, so I bent mine just short of that and it was very close. I still had a little bump steer left.

I'd like to get Chicane67 into this discussion and see what his experience has been.

If there was a better material for the ballstud (like crome molly) for a couple of bucks more, I'd do that, as there will be more stress on it due to the length.
I'd leave it up to them whether it would help.
Did they say they would sell to you? I heard they won't do retail.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

[This message has been edited by davidpozzi (edited 03-26-2001).]

They indicated that it would be a special order type thing for the stud, they don't have anything in stock that would work. I asked about dealing directly with them or if I had to get a third party retailer involved, still waiting to hear back about that and pricing-individual and "bulk".

As for materials and design, I haven't gotten to those specifics yet. I thought I'd find out first if it would even be financially worthwhile to do it. If it is, then I'll call and work out specifics with them.
I would love to hear feedback from Chacane67 and anyone else on this, I'd hate to have a specially made part that still doesn't correct the problem.
Thanks for the feedback about what Dick Guldstrand told you David, if nothing else comes about, I think that alone would be reliable enough to go on......


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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

Bret,
I should put in here, that 67 Camaros use a different "handed" thread on the tie rod ends.
68 and 69 are the same.
There is no reason a 68/69 end would not work on a 67, but I think the adjuster threads run differently, left hand instead of right hand, or something like that.
Just in case someone with a 67 is interested.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

Bret, I'd be interested too.

David, I haven't heard that before! I looked at the Classic Camaro catalog I have here and they only list one part number for 67-69 for both tie rods and adjusters. Maybe they assume that all parts will be replaced with a front end re-build???

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

Bret,
Yes it's wierd.
check my suspension page at the bottom, those are Moog numbers.
David

------------------
Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

A few questions/comments about having a longer stud on the tie rod to lower the outer tie rod and reduce bump steer.

The outer steering arm has a tapered seat. How does extending the threaded end of the tie rod allow joint to be lowered and still seat properly? On a Corvette this would work since the steering arm is a straight hole. Most lowered Camaros need to lower outer tie rod joint to reduce bump steer - right? Seems like the ideal joint (to properly lower the tie rod end) then would need more material between the pivot ball and the tapered part of the shaft?

I just re-read the Car Life article on the 69 Penske Camaro - Jan 1970. The article stated - "the only trick done to the steering is one subtle geometry modification. A small spacer is between the steering arm and the tie rod, to lower the tie rod end..." How was this done? Also note the Penske Camaro had longer spindles than a production car.

Also a December 67 Hot Rod article on Smokey Yunick's 67 Camaro had Smokey's solution - raise the inner tie mounting point on the drag lick. On page 43 you can clearing see a piece was welded on that raises the inner mounting location. Sounds simple and cheaper than custom tie rods?? If the whole tie rod is TOO high on the tire side - raising the inner accomplished the same thing as lowering the outer tie rod.

Dave

Dave, the longer stud would be longer in the tapered section-between the bottom of the steering arm and the "ball". I agree that you can accomplish the same thing by raising the inner tie rod, but I'm looking for a bolt-on. Also, I don't want to have to worry about creating problems with oil pan to steering linkage clearance. I am also concerned with the price of a custom piece, and if it turns out to be too expensive then I'll go another route. But that is where this post comes in, because I'm sure that a large enough order will reduce the cost some.

I'd be interested to find out how a spacer was added between the steering arm and tie rod as well. It doesn't seem like there would be enough room for one on the stock configuration. Maybe they used a tie rod that had a longer threaded section, then added different thickness spacers to find what worked best?

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

The racing bumpsteer kit from Guldstrand or thte Steeroids bumpsteer kit has a tapered stud that turns into a straight stud where the ball joint would be.
You stack washers on top of, or below a rod end on the stud to adjust height for bump steer.

I had a good friend with a Datsun 240Z who put rod ends on his car and they wore out in less than a year.
A good quality rod end with teflon insert may last longer than the one I saw.
the next step up would be a spherical bearing, teflon lined in a fabricated housing and a snap ring to retain it in the housing.
This would last a long time.
But a good Spherical bearing would cost $30 to $50 each.

I was looking at the "Thrasher" last saturady at Pleasanton Goodguys show, and that car had the inner ends raised by welding on a piece of metal on the inner end with a tapered hole for the tie rod end.
I think there is enough room to raise the inner tie rod end, but not to move it inward very far.
I have seen this mod done on circle track cars and it would be cheap and easy as you don't need special parts.
If you ever wanted to go back to stock, you could cut off the welded on piece and smooth it off.
The stock hole would be left alone so it would be there.
David

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Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info:
David's Motorsports page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/)
First Gen Suspension Page (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/first_gen_suspension.htm)
67 RS 327
69 Camaro Vintage Racer
65 Lola T-70 Can Am Vintage Racer

I would check the bump steer on the car I'm working on,and would'nt rely on the measurements from another car.There are alot of things that come into play in the front geometry,that may be slightly different,from one car to another.Several small changes can add up.Examples--- pitman arm depth,on box,tie rod depth,steering box-mount to frame.All these things can be adjusted,slightly.Think about the steering box- if you were to hold up the front of the box,and push down the rear at the same time,you could probably raise the pitman arm 1/8",same with the idler arm.Not to mention the tweeks the frame has gotten over the years.Yes the guys here are giving good info,but,if I were to go through the work and spend money,I would confirm what MY car wants,not what someone elses' car wanted. I have a good example.I bought a bump steer corection package,for my dirt track car.I ran this for a few months.I then checked my bump steer.It was horrible.The thing had .180 bump IN,in the first inch,in 5 inches it had 3/4 inches bump IN.I checked with the manufacturer,they said the package will keep the bump less than .200 in 4 inches.The problem was MY car.The package was designed with a lower ride heights in mind.To fix the problem I changed the drag link,and ball joints.Problem solved. Each and every car will need something different,to optimize the front end geometry.A half inch in ride height makes a big difference. Why go through the work of bending,buying,cutting and welding,if you dont REALLY know what the results will be!Sorry this is so long,and hope there's no offense,but that's my experience.I wasted my money on the store bought bump steer deal.

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68 z28 ,68 rs 327 ,73 454 vette, 2 goofy kids